Rumorpile: GM & BMW To Team Up?

[William Maley]

Rumorpile: GM & BMW To Team Up?

William Maley - Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

September 12, 2011

The past few weeks in the automotive world has been all about the alliances; Ford and Toyota teaming up to work on hybrids, Suzuki and Volkswagen breaking off their two year alliance, and if a report from Spiegel Online is true, BMW and GM could be the next alliance.

According to the report, GM is interested in the Barvarian's gasoline and diesel engines. Also, GM's board member in charge of strategy, Stephen Girsky has begun talks with the company on "far-reaching joint projects." This is unconfirmed at the moment.

In turn, Speigel reports BMW is interested in the Voltec powertrain that's used the Chevrolet Volt/Opel Ampera. This should come as no surprise as BMW's head of Research & Development, Frank Weber was the former lead engineer of the Volt.

Neither company could be reached for comment.

Source: Fox Business

[ZL-1]

Interesting!

[hyperv6]

Could this be where mark is going to get a Cadillac engine? GM could source some BMW engines built to their spec? Mclaren and others have done already with great results.

GM and BMW have had on going projects in the past that have helped each. The 6 speed auto the most well known. Shareing this technology both ways could help both. Also BMW has been outlined before as needing a dance partner to absorb development cost. They are not as large as many think and do need help with rising cost of development of parts be it a supplier or another MFG. They above all want to retain their autonomy.

Note I would not expect any engines to be direct trades from a BMW engine by to a GM bay.

I am not a BMW fan but if it would help put engine in a Cadillac not shared with any other GM division lets do it. That is as long as it is a very well advanced, refined quality engine.

Also sharing the Volt technology will help recoupe the cost faster and help accelerate development for better range and lower future cost.

[pow]

The i3 is supposed to have an optional range extender. I can imagine a Voltec transmission but with a better BMW engine-generator.

[Robert Hall]

Could this be where mark is going to get a Cadillac engine? GM could source some BMW engines built to their spec? McLaren and others have done already with great results.

GM and BMW have had on going projects in the past that have helped each. The 6 speed auto the most well known. Shareing this technology both ways could help both. Also BMW has been outlined before as needing a dance partner to absorb development cost. They are not as large as many think and do need help with rising cost of development of parts be it a supplier or another MFG. They above all want to retain their autonomy.

Seems like this could be a path to Cadillac getting a modern DOHC V8...I can't see GM doing it from scratch.

[Carguy]

Could this be where mark is going to get a Cadillac engine? GM could source some BMW engines built to their spec? McLaren and others have done already with great results.

GM and BMW have had on going projects in the past that have helped each. The 6 speed auto the most well known. Shareing this technology both ways could help both. Also BMW has been outlined before as needing a dance partner to absorb development cost. They are not as large as many think and do need help with rising cost of development of parts be it a supplier or another MFG. They above all want to retain their autonomy.

Seems like this could be a path to Cadillac getting a modern DOHC V8...I can't see GM doing it from scratch.

That's an intriguing thought! But would that not cause a BMW competitor in the new gen Cadillac's? I am not so sure BMW would want that!

[Robert Hall]

Could this be where mark is going to get a Cadillac engine? GM could source some BMW engines built to their spec? McLaren and others have done already with great results.

GM and BMW have had on going projects in the past that have helped each. The 6 speed auto the most well known. Shareing this technology both ways could help both. Also BMW has been outlined before as needing a dance partner to absorb development cost. They are not as large as many think and do need help with rising cost of development of parts be it a supplier or another MFG. They above all want to retain their autonomy.

Seems like this could be a path to Cadillac getting a modern DOHC V8...I can't see GM doing it from scratch.

That's an intriguing thought! But would that not cause a BMW competitor in the new gen Cadillac's? I am not so sure BMW would want that!

Maybe BMW would let Cadillac develop something off their last gen V8...

anyway, using BMW diesels would make sense for Cadillac in Europe.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[dwightlooi]

Maybe BMW would let Cadillac develop something off their last gen V8...

anyway, using BMW diesels would make sense for Cadillac in Europe.

Maybe GM will offer BMW the superior power-to-weight ratio, improved power-to-size ratio and enhanced fuel economy of the Gen V Pushrod V8 for their M-cars... LOL.

But, seriously, a GM BMW alliance makes sense. BMW had been using GM 6-speed automatics for the AWD variants of their 3, 5 and X series, and has no in house automatic transmission capability. GM also has the Voltec drive train, as well as various dual-mode and mild hybrid tech. BMW on the other hand has made serious investments in Diesels -- an area GM is seriously deficient on. More importantly, BMW does not see GM as a competitor and vice versa. Everything except Cadillac operates in a different segment than anything BMW does. Cadillac itself is such a minor presence in Europe and internationally that it is no threat in immediate future.

[hyperv6]

I have long considered BMW as a supplier of an engine. This is something they have done for others.

BMW would not just hand them a M series engine off the shelf but I would see something either based on a BMW produstion block built to Cadillac specs or even an engine produced for Cadillac in low volumes that is of it's own design.

The Mclaren F1 used this system of BMW engine tech and Mclaren tuning to make a very capable engine that BMW never used themselves in identical form.

I think even if it was only a optional engine that was used in only a few models at Cadillac it would help advance Cadillas away from Chevy and give them more autonomy to be their own brand.

I think with their engineering and GM engineering working together to let BMW build in the proper volumes for Cadillac is a good combo.

Remember Mark said Cadillac is not all big V8 engines and Supercharger anymore. Could this be a Small V8 or even a 6 cylinder? Or could it be an option on a V12 for the Omega? Time may show us some new interesting stuff.

GM has a long history with BMW, Lotus and Porsche. Few people really understand what all engineering they have shared. One few know about is Porsche did the tuning on the GM designed 1988 Fiero suspension. They tuned the front suspension for better feel and turn in. Many claimed Lotus did it but that was false. Even Zora Duntov drove for Porsche racing while working for GM.

[Northstar]

This has a lot of potential.

If it gets done, I'd like to see GM get some sort of M engine for a Camaro Z/28, if possible. Something to compete directly with the Boss 302.

That might be too expensive though, but I wonder if the 4.0 in the M3 can be made into a 4.6. If so, extrapolating the power figures would give a Z28 ~470HP/340lb-ft.

I used 4.6 liters for 283 cubic inches. I don't think the Z/28 even had a 283, but 283 is still a recognizable number for Chevy V8s.

Then again maybe it doesn't matter considering it's not a Chevy V8. And it's probably way too expensive anyways.

[ZL-1]

Maybe BMW would let Cadillac develop something off their last gen V8...

Or just license the current V8... Cadillac won't be an instant menace to BMW volume-wise for quite some time to come, so why not reap some clean profits, on a marginal costing basis, by selling a few thousand extra V8 engines?

[PONTIAC06]

as others have said, it wouldn't be the first time...weren't the GMT-900 hybrids the result of a GM/BMW/Daimler tie-up? I don't know if anything else besides the short lived Durango/Aspen hybrids used them. But, I could see a lot of interesting things coming from this.

(If I remember correctly, GM had most of the work done, and the other invested in it, but I'm not sure)

Edited September 13, 2011 by PONTIAC06

[balthazar]

Maybe BMW is looking for more transmission options, they certainly used plenty of GM automatics before, and more & more of their cars are ditching manuals...

[Robert Hall]

Where is BMW sourcing their current automatics? ZF? They probably need a 10 speed for their NG models..

[Camino LS6]

Hmmm.

[smk4565]

BMW has the ZF 8-speed in most models, and the 3-series is supposed to get it on the next generation, so they are set for transmission. I also don't see BMW selling their engines to a mainstream luxury car maker. They can do it to Fisker, or a company like Fisker, Spyker, even Lotus because those companies don't compete directly with BMW.

I could see a share on range extender electric drivetrains, but BMW has the gas engine part down. And I don't know if a lithium-ion battery and electric motor is all that hard to engineer. I think BMW can handle it alone, but a team up with GM to work on powertrain for next Volt and i3 and i8 cars I can see happening also.

[SAmadei]

Maybe BMW is looking for more transmission options, they certainly used plenty of GM automatics before, and more & more of their cars are ditching manuals...

Or transaxles... FWD transaxles.

[hyperv6]

Maybe BMW is looking for more transmission options, they certainly used plenty of GM automatics before, and more & more of their cars are ditching manuals...

Or transaxles... FWD transaxles.

Benz did just anounce a new FWD roadster. You may have a real good point.

[smk4565]

Maybe BMW is looking for more transmission options, they certainly used plenty of GM automatics before, and more & more of their cars are ditching manuals...

Or transaxles... FWD transaxles.

They have Mini which has FWD transaxels.

[dwightlooi]

They have Mini which has FWD transaxels.

Actually, no they don't. The Mini uses a Getrag 252 (5-speed) and Getrag 285 (6-speed) manuals, as well as the Aisin GA6F21 6-speed automatic. None of which are of BMW origin; BMW does not do transmissions.

[pow]

They have Mini which has FWD transaxels.

Actually, no they don't. The Mini uses a Getrag 252 (5-speed) and Getrag 285 (6-speed) manuals, as well as the Aisin GA6F21 6-speed automatic. None of which are of BMW origin; BMW does not do transmissions.

Who builds the DCT in the M3 and M5?

[dwightlooi]

They have Mini which has FWD transaxels.

Actually, no they don't. The Mini uses a Getrag 252 (5-speed) and Getrag 285 (6-speed) manuals, as well as the Aisin GA6F21 6-speed automatic. None of which are of BMW origin; BMW does not do transmissions.

Who builds the DCT in the M3 and M5?

Getrag supplied both the SMG and the DCT used by BMW.

The SMG is basically a Getrag D-type 200-series manual transmission with electro-hydraulic actuation of the singular clutch. The DCT is designed from the ground up as an automated manual with a concentric shaft and dual clutches.

Getrag was traditionally a manual gearbox maker. Like Borg-warner (which supplies VW-Audi's DSG) they evolved into an automated manual maker.

GM uses Getrag boxes too. The Getrag F23 5-speed manual was in the Cobalt/HHR SS. The F28/6 is in the manual trans Turbo Opels (Buicks).

Edited September 13, 2011 by dwightlooi

[hyperv6]

BMW like many companies are buying major parts from suppliers anymore and in some cases always have. The development to do all these parts are too expensive and they can get an outside company to do it cheaper and as well. BMW is no where near the size of VW, Ford or GM and it has to trim the cost where they can. This is why many in the industry expect BMW to work with someone in the future to keep independent.

Development cost have gotten so out of hand it has even driven the big players like Ford and GM to share in transaxle development.

Getrag first were used in GM cars in the 80's. It was their 5 speed design but GM built it in Indiana. The 5 speed Fiero's came with Getrag designed boxes in the V6 cars and GM advertised it a lot back then.

[pow]

They have Mini which has FWD transaxels.

Actually, no they don't. The Mini uses a Getrag 252 (5-speed) and Getrag 285 (6-speed) manuals, as well as the Aisin GA6F21 6-speed automatic. None of which are of BMW origin; BMW does not do transmissions.

Who builds the DCT in the M3 and M5?

Getrag supplied both the SMG and the DCT used by BMW.

The SMG is basically a Getrag D-type 200-series manual transmission with electro-hydraulic actuation of the singular clutch. The DCT is designed from the ground up as an automated manual with a concentric shaft and dual clutches.

Getrag was traditionally a manual gearbox maker. Like Borg-warner (which supplies VW-Audi's DSG) they evolved into an automated manual maker.

GM uses Getrag boxes too. The Getrag F23 5-speed manual was in the Cobalt/HHR SS. The F28/6 is in the manual trans Turbo Opels (Buicks).

In that case, I suppose the DCT is a BMW transmission in the same way MRC is Cadillac technology: they were the first to have it, and they tuned it to their own specifications.

Our 2000 5-series has a GM transmission (5L40E made in Strasbourg, France) but it was exclusive to BMW for three years until the CTS came out, at which time BMW switched to a six-speed ZF unit.

[dwightlooi]

In that case, I suppose the DCT is a BMW transmission in the same way MRC is Cadillac technology: they were the first to have it, and they tuned it to their own specifications.

Our 2000 5-series has a GM transmission (5L40E made in Strasbourg, France) but it was exclusive to BMW for three years until the CTS came out, at which time BMW switched to a six-speed ZF unit.

Actually it was a little more contrived than that. BMW switched to a ZF 6-speed for RWD cars, but the the ZF box did not have the appropriate accommodations for AWD, so the AWD models (eg. 330xi and X3) used a GM Hydramatic 6L45 6-speed automatic to get all 4-wheels turning.

[Potluck]

wasn't there something about GM getting V8s for Cadillac years ago at the earlier planned death of the northstar?

[hyperv6]

wasn't there something about GM getting V8s for Cadillac years ago at the earlier planned death of the northstar?

They killed it in or around 08/ It had a lot to do with the health of the company and also the volume. This is why many here think this relationship with BMW may produce an engine to Cadillacs spec but be produced with engineering from BMW and GM.

Besides a little BMW DNA in a Caddy may change some minds of those who only blindly think German.

It is a Cost, Volume and Marketing idea we have that would not hurt Cadillac and may just give them the engine they need to put space between Chevy and themselves in the eye of the consumer.

Besides BMW can not afford the big programs like the Volt technology and getting GM to share it would help both companies. It would offset the cost of what GM spent and save BMW the development cost they can not afford on their own.

The key is where to draw the line that both companies protect themselves in the deal.

[daves87rs]

It will work, no doubt about that.

[Potluck]

wasn't there something about GM getting V8s for Cadillac years ago at the earlier planned death of the northstar?

They killed it in or around 08/ It had a lot to do with the health of the company and also the volume. This is why many here think this relationship with BMW may produce an engine to Cadillacs spec but be produced with engineering from BMW and GM.

Besides a little BMW DNA in a Caddy may change some minds of those who only blindly think German.

It is a Cost, Volume and Marketing idea we have that would not hurt Cadillac and may just give them the engine they need to put space between Chevy and themselves in the eye of the consumer.

Besides BMW can not afford the big programs like the Volt technology and getting GM to share it would help both companies. It would offset the cost of what GM spent and save BMW the development cost they can not afford on their own.

The key is where to draw the line that both companies protect themselves in the deal.

I'm sorry, I skipped a word. I meant to say "Wasn't there talk of GM getting V8s from BMW for Cadillac a few years back?"

[hyperv6]

I not aware of this. If there was it never got very far.