AZ Wrong on immigration

[CSpec]

Wrong on immigration

Lexington

MUCH as I admire his prose style, George Will is horribly wrong this morning. Of Arizona's atrocious new law that allows the state police to arrest anyone they suspect of being an illegal immigrant, he says:

Arizona's law might give the nation information about whether judicious enforcement discourages illegality. If so, it is a worthwhile experiment in federalism.

On the contrary, empowering the police to stop and demand papers from anyone who looks vaguely Mexican will make life unpleasant for Hispanics while wasting time that officers could more usefully spend pursuing real criminals.

More generally, I find the "let's secure the border first" argument unconvincing. Serious people from both parties make it:

Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), whose home state touched off the controversy, said: “I think a lot of people, including some Democrats, understand that until we have a more sincere effort to control borders and enforce the law, the conditions to pass comprehensive immigration reform don’t exist.”

Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) concurred. “Clearly, it’s time to get the borders secured. Then I think you can talk about immigration reform,” Nelson said.

But it is impossible to secure a 2,000 mile land border against economic migrants. So long as there are jobs to come to, they will find a way. The only way to relieve pressure on the border is to allow a realistic number of migrants into America, ie one that bears some resemblance to the demand for their labour. When demand falls, (as in the current recession) fewer come, and many go home.

In the medium term, trying to secure the border before you address immigration reform is like trying to stop dust flying into your vacuum cleaner without turning off the suction.

[Drew Dowdell]

In the medium term, trying to secure the border before you address immigration reform is like trying to stop dust flying into your vacuum cleaner without turning off the suction.

Agreed. We should impose financially catastrophic penalties on the people who hire illegals.... even if it's just to do once a week yard work. That will cut the cord on the vacuum cleaner in the first place.

[Robert Hall]

Agreed. We should impose financially catastrophic penalties on the people who hire illegals.... even if it's just to do once a week yard work. That will cut the cord on the vacuum cleaner in the first place.

Speaking of yard crews, I finally found a new yard guy...he charges $25/week more than the guys that could barely speak English, but at least he doesn't chop off the sprinkler heads and hasn't stolen my string trimmer yet...

[Intrepidation]

What people seem to forget that illegal immigrants are here, you know, illegally, which is...you know against the law.

There needs to be tougher enforcement about the immigration issue. AZ's may not be the best way, but how about the federal government stop pussy footing around and finally, actually, come up with better policies to deal with the issue.

[CSpec]

Uhhh, no, the author was saying that the visa caps are absurdly low which forces people who want to lift themselves out of desperate poverty to do so illegally. The way to remedy this without a massive and harmful police-state situation is to allow far more to come in legally. "But it is impossible to secure a 2,000 mile land border against economic migrants. So long as there are jobs to come to, they will find a way."

[Drew Dowdell]

and if we financially punish employers in such a catastrophic way so as to prevent the hiring of illegals, the suction will stop.

[CSpec]

and if we financially punish employers in such a catastrophic way so as to prevent the hiring of illegals, the suction will stop.

You think that will work? How well is the drug war going (which by the way is causing all the violence south of the border that Arizonans are scared of).

[Z-06]

Uhhh, no, the author was saying that the visa caps are absurdly low which forces people who want to lift themselves out of desperate poverty to do so illegally. The way to remedy this without a massive and harmful police-state situation is to allow far more to come in legally. "But it is impossible to secure a 2,000 mile land border against economic migrants. So long as there are jobs to come to, they will find a way."

The author misses the point. The absurdly low jab is more to the inability of people getting H1-B visa. H1-B visa lack is not why illegals are here. Given the context of illegals, these people and the employers who hire them have to go through a lot of red-tape for obtaining H1-B, they thus would rather stay illegal or hire illegals. I agree with DF and Olds for the points made. Especially Olds point - cut the demand or make it difficult, the supply will fall.

An example, one of our liner installers' crew was caught in Ohio by Border Patrol. What started up being a bar brawl ended up being a deportation spree. 29 of its 32 members were illegal. The installer pays minimum wage for new-hires and the foreman with 20 years experience gets paid close to $11-12/hour, imagine giving that wage to a UAW foreman with similar experience. When the helicopters fly on the job sites, these people go hiding for bushes, thinking it is Federally helicopter. It is a hilarious site, but it is not funny in broader context.

[CSpec]

I think you're all missing the point: why is restricting immigration a good thing? Anti-immigration zealots tend to object to it on the grounds that it's currently nominally illegal, but I think that's just cover to advocate ridding the country of brown and yellow people.

[Z-06]

I think you're all missing the point: why is restricting immigration a good thing? Anti-immigration zealots tend to object to it on the grounds that it's currently nominally illegal, but I think that's just cover to advocate ridding the country of brown and yellow people.

So the Russian and Balkan illegals who reside in Miami/Fort Lauderdale and much of North Washington state of others are off the hook because of the lack of the two skin colors?

[balthazar]

I think you're all missing the point: why is restricting immigration a good thing? Anti-immigration zealots tend to object to it on the grounds that it's currently nominally illegal, but I think that's just cover to advocate ridding the country of brown and yellow people.

This is NOT an anti-immigration sentiment, it's an anti-ILLEGAL immigration sentiment. Huge difference.

And littering is 'nominally illegal'; note that Mexico treats illegal immigration to their country akin to a felony. Since this country is so awful on all fronts, perhaps we should follow their example.

Very very few U.S. citizens have no immigrant component in their histories. It's not racial, it's about respecting the laws of the land and not what comes down to rewarding law breakers.

Edited April 28, 2010 by balthazar

[RjION]

Lets see .............. the Arizona way is to do nothing more then enforce federal laws .... Damn Arizona

[Robert Hall]

There seems to be a lot of hysteria here in AZ on the radio, in the news, etc about this, from both sides. On the surface it does seem it's all about local/state law enforcement enforcing federal laws. Some are questioning if that is constitutional. Lots of sturm und drang.

All I know is that the important question is---'are you papers in order'?

[regfootball]

What people seem to forget that illegal immigrants are here, you know, illegally, which is...you know against the law.

There needs to be tougher enforcement about the immigration issue. AZ's may not be the best way, but how about the federal government stop pussy footing around and finally, actually, come up with better policies to deal with the issue.

no chance of that being possible with the person in charge.

not that he himself may not see it as valuable. it's the party he is tied to and the votes it is tied to.

Edited April 28, 2010 by regfootball

[CSpec]

This is NOT an anti-immigration sentiment, it's an anti-ILLEGAL immigration sentiment. Huge difference.

And littering is 'nominally illegal'; note that Mexico treats illegal immigration to their country akin to a felony. Since this country is so awful on all fronts, perhaps we should follow their example.

Very very few U.S. citizens have no immigrant component in their histories. It's not racial, it's about respecting the laws of the land and not what comes down to rewarding law breakers.

Oh really. This forum is replete with the use of the word "jap" to refer to Japanese cars. There is constant hatred hurled at China, its goods, and its people. People tend to bite their tongue when the subject of GM manufacturing in Mexico comes up, but you can tell they don't like it. How many "Buy USA" threads come up on a regular basis?

The hedge of sometimes professing one's love for "our Canadian friends" merely reinforces my view that people (here and generally) don't hate foreigners, they hate certain kinds of foreigners at various points in history. The established Western and Northern Europeans hated the waves of Southern and Eastern Europeans in the late 1800s into the next century. They hated the Irish. They especially hated the Chinese laborers on the West Coast. Nowadays people hate Hispanics, and car fans never quite gave up their hatred for the Japanese invasion of quality products.

[regfootball]

I think you're all missing the point: why is restricting immigration a good thing? Anti-immigration zealots tend to object to it on the grounds that it's currently nominally illegal, but I think that's just cover to advocate ridding the country of brown and yellow people.

it's because people with all the lovely ideas like that which by the way are nice as far as intent, they feel they are above reproach in terms of all the economic and balance sheet issues related to it.

the people that think they are on the leading edge of promoting advancing and changing culture always choose to ignore the underlying money issues so they reduce it to a hatred pissing match. they want to make it a complete emotional argument because they know their position cannot exist financially. and they simply are too pig headed and selfish to settle for anything less than getting what they want. you know, because they are better than everyone else.

one aside comment. in the ag areas where i grew up, the migrants were the ones who lived in $h!ty old trailer houses and worked the field work that the privileged white teenagers would never work if their next meal or case of really cheap bad beer depended on it. They put in long full days and they sweat their asses off for next to nothing to come home and live in an unsafe tin shack. Of course, they also took their pay and welfare and food money and send it south of the border to their rellies in Mexico. And added lots of crime to the area. But they did do work lots of the too good for you white folks thought they were too good for.

Edited April 28, 2010 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Oh really. This forum is replete with the use of the word "jap" to refer to Japanese cars. There is constant hatred hurled at China, its goods, and its people. People tend to bite their tongue when the subject of GM manufacturing in Mexico comes up, but you can tell they don't like it. How many "Buy USA" threads come up on a regular basis?

The hedge of sometimes professing one's love for "our Canadian friends" merely reinforces my view that people (here and generally) don't hate foreigners, they hate certain kinds of foreigners at various points in history. The established Western and Northern Europeans hated the waves of Southern and Eastern Europeans in the late 1800s into the next century. They hated the Irish. They especially hated the Chinese laborers on the West Coast. Nowadays people hate Hispanics, and car fans never quite gave up their hatred for the Japanese invasion of quality products.

I know a lot of the really fair skinned Scandinavian bunch that really even hate lots of the German, Poles, Czechs etc. That pervasive 'everything is better in norway, sweden, etc' thing is the most bigoted bunch I am usually aware of.

[Robert Hall]

Ever since grad school 15+ years ago I've been used to working w/ a lot of immigrants and have a lot of friends that are immigrants, worked w/ lots of H1-B and green card holders from India, Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Hungary, Russia, the UK, Sri Lanka, China, etc. In my profession, there are many, many legal immigrants. In my department at my current client, I'm in the minority as a US-born WAS. (WASP sans P)

(And even though this is AZ, there seem to be no Hispanics at any of the clients I've worked at since I've been here, at least not in the software development groups).

Edited April 28, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[RjION]

Hell my parents were immigrants .............. LEGAL immigrants

Edited April 28, 2010 by RjION

[Drew Dowdell]

If they want to come here legally, that's fine. But illegals are sucking up labor that could be done by people here legally and depressing the wages of everyone around them.

Make the enforcement against hiring illegals so harsh and so often enforced that people will start checking documents for employment and paying the minimum wage because it will cost too much to get caught. We need a way of verifying that documents are valid as well.

[CSpec]

Sigh. What do you think illegal immigrants do? They come here to work--they are fulfilling a vital need in the US economy. They don't show up and stab people all day. If you think we would somehow be made richer by deporting every illegal, you're delusional. AND it needs to be mentioned that these people risk their lives to give themselves and their children a better life, and they endure a life of fear and the shadowy and dangerous underworld to obtain vital services.

[Drew Dowdell]

I have no problem with people working. Do it legally.

If you own a farm and need people to pick your strawberries, you need to pay your workers at least the federal or state minimum wage and they must show documents as being legally allowed to work in the U.S. I don't care if your workers come from Mexico, Bagdad, Detroit, or some other war zone. Follow the laws.

[PurdueGuy]

Yes, we should rework the process for immigration to allow for people to come to our country more easily. We ALSO should ENFORCE our laws. I don't understand how people think that enforcing our borders with a high rate of success (not perfect) is so impossible. If it weren't for political foot-dragging, political correctness (not to be confused with efforts to truly preserve rights & reasonable privacy), proper funds and staffing could allow for clever use of technology that would GREATLY reduce illegal immigration, illegal cross-border drug running, etc. Yes, reforming immigration processes, limits, etc would also help reduce the flow of illegals, but we can't wait until every ideal action is taking place to take SOME action. It's perfectly fine to question the specifics of this law, but I applaud AZ for at least DOING SOMETHING. And to act like illegal immigrants doing low-wage work is somehow doing us a big favor is ignorant of the drain they present on the economy. They generally do not pay taxes (except things like sales tax), but still add costs to other social programs.

[CSpec]

Hmm. Olds, do you think these people prefer to be illegal aliens living a breath away from arrest and deportation? Do you think employers enjoy having federal thugs turn up to take away all their laborers? Maybe the immigration problem is a failing of current immigration policy. I don't see anyone here acknowledging that--people only bloviate in abstract terms about illegal this and that, and their only solution is to kick out everyone who is currently here illegally. Even if you could flip a switch and make these people instantly go back to their hovels, that is not a desirable outcome. (Of course actually accomplishing that would require a Stalinist witch hunt and purge).

[Drew Dowdell]

I think a lot of the draw is the employers in the US who are willing to hire illegals. If the illegals can't get hired because they are illegal, they'll go home on their own or they won't come in the first place.

I'm surprised at you.... I thought a "market based" solution would be right up your ally. Forcing employers to comply with the law or be severely punished would dry up demand for illegal work. The ones who want to stay can work on getting their citizenship legally.

I'm thinking a fine of something like 20 times market wage (or minimum wage whichever is higher) for as long as the employee worked there (or 6 months worth of 40 hour a week salary, whichever is longer)

That'll make even someone with a payroll like Walmart stop and think twice about verifying employment eligibility and it will certainly stop illegal day laborers.

[CSpec]

Excuse me, the market forces are already at work: the workers are coming because there is clearly a very high demand for backbreaking manual labor. Who will take their place? Or do you want to just slash US economic output?

How's this for a question: if you could offer the typical migrant worker job to all the people currently on the unemployment rolls, how many would take it?

[Drew Dowdell]

Excuse me, the market forces are already at work: the workers are coming because there is clearly a very high demand for backbreaking manual labor. Who will take their place? Or do you want to just slash US economic output?

How's this for a question: if you could offer the typical migrant worker job to all the people currently on the unemployment rolls, how many would take it?

So what you're saying is that companies will do what they can to thwart the law (in this case immigration law) in order to benefit their own bottom line? Say it ain't so Joe! The typical migrant workers work for less than minimum wage.

As far as your question.... 1,000 people camped out in Queens, NY over night in the rain to apply for a single elevator mechanic's job. You'd be surprised what people would be willing to do.

[CSpec]

Olds, you are missing the obvious here. That mechanic job is a union gig, which pays far above the market clearing wage with ironclad job security to boot. Why else do you think people would go so nuts to get it? And what does the minimum wage have to do with these migrant workers? They chose to risk their lives and endure terrible hardship just for the chance to work for that wage. What does that tell you?

[Drew Dowdell]

Olds, you are missing the obvious here. That mechanic job is a union gig, which pays far above the market clearing wage with ironclad job security to boot. Why else do you think people would go so nuts to get it? And what does the minimum wage have to do with these migrant workers? They chose to risk their lives and endure terrible hardship just for the chance to work for that wage. What does that tell you?

Minimum wage was set up for a reason. We shouldn't be abusing people's misfortune just so we can buy strawberries at $1.99/lb no matter how willing they are to let us do it.

[AAS]

How's this for a question: if you could offer the typical migrant worker job to all the people currently on the unemployment rolls, how many would take it?

I've asked this same question when this topic has come up before. The answer, though people will deny it, is no, otherwise there would be "no unemployment or illegals."

As far as your question.... 1,000 people camped out in Queens, NY over night in the rain to apply for a single elevator mechanic's job. You'd be surprised what people would be willing to do.

Apples to oranges. An elevator mechanic's job is nothing like picking strawberries.

[CSpec]

I've asked this same question when this topic has come up before. The answer, though people will deny it, is no, otherwise there would be "no unemployment or illegals."

Ah, I was hoping someone would say that! I like your economist intuition, AAS.

And Olds, you're conflating two completely different issues. You may think we're abusing people, but they entered into that employment voluntarily. The only reason to do that is because either it's better than their previous life, or it's not but it's the first step to moving up in the world's most dynamic economy. But anyway how is that an argument for deporting them? You claim to have empathy for these people who are much poorer than us, and your solution is to make them poorer.

[loki]

why the prohibition on allowing people to easily legally work? yes i used prohibition on purpose. do i need to say anymore about it?

[Drew Dowdell]

Ah, I was hoping someone would say that! I like your economist intuition, AAS.

And Olds, you're conflating two completely different issues. You may think we're abusing people, but they entered into that employment voluntarily. The only reason to do that is because either it's better than their previous life, or it's not but it's the first step to moving up in the world's most dynamic economy. But anyway how is that an argument for deporting them? You claim to have empathy for these people who are much poorer than us, and your solution is to make them poorer.

Where, in any of my posts, did I mention deporting them?

Not a single single post did I say to deport them.

I am saying that we should place financially catastrophic fines on employers so that the demand for illegal work will dry up....

If they want to work here, I'm all for it. Do it legally and get paid at least minimum wage.

[CSpec]

Where, in any of my posts, did I mention deporting them?

Not a single single post did I say to deport them.

I am saying that we should place financially catastrophic fines on employers so that the demand for illegal work will dry up....

If they want to work here, I'm all for it. Do it legally and get paid at least minimum wage.

You think these people would rather get paid a pittance than the lavish minimum wage??? Why do you think they work they way they do?

[Drew Dowdell]

You think these people would rather get paid a pittance than the lavish minimum wage??? Why do you think they work they way they do?

Because employers are willing to look the other way on eligibility.

Let me throw this one back at you...... should farm owners be allowed to employ 12 year olds to work in their farm 50 hours a week for $2 an hour just because they found a 12 year old willing to do the labor?

[CSpec]

It depends on the situation. If the child needs to work for himself and the family to survive, yes. Witness child labor in very poor countries (and the US 200 years ago). However parents will only go to that as a last resort.

If you're referring to US fruit farms, I don't think that's an issue because I wouldn't think kids would be very good at manual labor. And anyway people in this country feel rich enough to extend charity to starving people on our doorstep, which these people are denied because of immigration policy.

[Drew Dowdell]

You and I are talking two different things. If you want to relax immigration policy and allow more people in legally, I'm all for it. Give them worker's visas, register them, document them, whatever make them legal.

Then pay them at least the mandated minimum wage and force employers to check for eligibility or be catastrophically fined. I'm not against them working here..... just do it legally. If there need to be a process change for them to be legal, then fine... but make the process efficient and get them documented.

[CSpec]

Oh, duh. You were insinuating up to now that given current policy, kick em all out. The clandestine underworld we have now isn't good for anyone except mobsters, smugglers, and drug dealers.

And by the way, that was the argument the author made in the OP to this thread.

[Drew Dowdell]

No. I want to remove the incentive for them to be here regardless of their immigration status. I'm happy that there is plenty of incentive for them to be properly naturalize or documented. If they want to come here and work, I'm all for it...... just follow the laws.

[NEXTEL CUP]

Cpsec do you have job? And by job, I mean career where you can provide for a family? Because your B.S. sounds awesome when you are young, but not when you see people around you getting laid off or forced to take a reduced work schdule. 12% UNEMPLOYMENT means people want jobs, and do not want them taken by illegal immmigrants. Get it through your head. Also I really would like to know what part of the country you live in. Beacasue, I seriously doubt that your home state faces the challenges that other border States do.

Edited April 29, 2010 by NEXTEL CUP

[Camino LS6]

I think everyone is missing the real point of all of this.

This law is more motivated by the near-civil war in parts of Mexico that is spilling across the border into Arizona than it is by undocumented workers. It's bad, very bad.

Arizona has enacted this law out of desperation, not some sort of witch hunt. The Feds didn't act, so Arizona did. And, by acting, have now gotten everyone's attention including Congress and the Prez.

Maybe that's all they wanted.

Beats being ignored and left to deal with the situation.

[AAS]

Where did my other post go? I make so few nowadays that it would be nice if they didn't disappear.

Cpsec do you have job? And by job, I mean career where you can provide for a family? Because your B.S. sounds awesome when you are young, but not when you see people around you getting laid off or forced to take a reduced work schdule. 12% UNEMPLOYMENT means people want jobs, and do not want them taken by illegal immmigrants. Get it through your head. Also I really would like to know what part of the country you live in. Beacasue, I seriously doubt that your home state faces the challenges that other border States do.

People don't want the jobs that immigrants take. That's my opinion, but I bet a poll of the unemployed would support it.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

it's because people with all the lovely ideas like that which by the way are nice as far as intent, they feel they are above reproach in terms of all the economic and balance sheet issues related to it.

the people that think they are on the leading edge of promoting advancing and changing culture always choose to ignore the underlying money issues so they reduce it to a hatred pissing match. they want to make it a complete emotional argument because they know their position cannot exist financially. and they simply are too pig headed and selfish to settle for anything less than getting what they want. you know, because they are better than everyone else.

one aside comment. in the ag areas where i grew up, the migrants were the ones who lived in $h!ty old trailer houses and worked the field work that the privileged white teenagers would never work if their next meal or case of really cheap bad beer depended on it. They put in long full days and they sweat their asses off for next to nothing to come home and live in an unsafe tin shack. Of course, they also took their pay and welfare and food money and send it south of the border to their rellies in Mexico. And added lots of crime to the area. But they did do work lots of the too good for you white folks thought they were too good for.

[Drew Dowdell]

Where did my other post go? I make so few nowadays that it would be nice if they didn't disappear.

People don't want the jobs that immigrants take. That's my opinion, but I bet a poll of the unemployed would support it.

Its there. If you make a bunch of posts in quick succession they get merged together into one automatically.

[loki]

I think everyone is missing the real point of all of this.

This law is more motivated by the near-civil war in parts of Mexico that is spilling across the border into Arizona than it is by undocumented workers. It's bad, very bad.

Arizona has enacted this law out of desperation, not some sort of witch hunt. The Feds didn't act, so Arizona did. And, by acting, have now gotten everyone's attention including Congress and the Prez.

Maybe that's all they wanted.

Beats being ignored and left to deal with the situation.

yes.. what's going on in Juarez is horrible... surprised texas hasn't done something like that. it is a failure of the federal gov, both here and in Mexico, and too bad alot of it has to do with drug laws, also how ineffective mexico is as trying to bring business to it to keep workers in their country.

Edited April 29, 2010 by loki

[balthazar]

People don't want the jobs that immigrants take.

Apparently there's this quaint notion of illegals picking lettuce and string beans and nothing else, but the fact is that they are in hundreds of industries and yes; they ARE doing jobs Americans want. Esp with real unemployment over 15%. I've seen & heard this firsthand in the construction biz- heavily IA-invested companies can undercut market price and will in this economy- putting tax-paying Americans out of work. We should right our own ship before taking on more passengers.

[AAS]

Apparently there's this quaint notion of illegals picking lettuce and string beans and nothing else, but the fact is that they are in hundreds of industries and yes; they ARE doing jobs Americans want. Esp with real unemployment over 15%. I've seen & heard this firsthand in the construction biz- heavily IA-invested companies can undercut market price and will in this economy- putting tax-paying Americans out of work. We should right our own ship before taking on more passengers.

Good point, I sort of forgot about the construction industry when making that statement. I guess what I should have said is, "people don't want the jobs that immigrants take for such low wages."

Yes, something should be done about this. Yes, part of it is "industry" wanting cheap labor. Yes, part of it is probably people not wanting certain jobs.

[Robert Hall]

Good point, I sort of forgot about the construction industry when making that statement. I guess what I should have said is, "people don't want the jobs that immigrants take for such low wages."

Yes, something should be done about this. Yes, part of it is "industry" wanting cheap labor. Yes, part of it is probably people not wanting certain jobs.

I think construction was a big part of it here in AZ over the last 30 years with the massive construction boom. But that has cooled off to a trickle of new construction in the last couple of years.

[RjION]

READ

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100501/ap_on_re_us/us_arizona_deputy_shot

[Sixty8panther]

How about instead of making immigration laws such a hot topic to divide & conquer the masses if those useless windbags in Washington got off their asses & tackled more pertinant issues:

1. Bringing back manufactiuring jobs to the USA

2. Stopping or at least slowing the out-sourcing epidemic

3. Increasing the GDP

4. National Security

5. Enforcing the laws that DO exist on illegal immigration