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GM can style any of their cars anyway they want. As Pontiac Custom-S has said, it's a simple matter to change the badges. In other words, the Pontiac Solstice could become the Chevrolet Solstice almost overnight.

I wouldn't use Nissan as an example since they really aren't setting the world on fire even with all their new products. Mazda has been selling the same number of cars for years. Ho-hum. I don't get why there's so much enthusiasm for the ugly and small 3??? Don't get it. Since you're under 25 you haven't been waiting long enough to tire of GM's promises. You'll come around to the truth that what GM says and what they think they must do are two different things. Every company must do this to a degree. They've got to stir you up enough to get you to buy their overproduced, overpriced crap. It's what keeps our economy alive. But, don't make the mistake that there are Pontiac "mavericks" and "enthusiasts" who can't wait to get out of bed everyday to kick ass and run the show at GM. Most of them hate their jobs and wouldn't know the difference between a johnson rod and connecting rod.

Friend, I love your enthusiasm for keeping the dead brands walking. But you have unwittingly nailed why GM will continue to lose traction in a world where the competition doesn't take a break. GM will never be able to spend enough money promoting all its brands all the time. Meanwhile, the crown jewels wait their respective turns in the soup line. Saturn's original purpose has been fulfilled and now remains just another unneeded distribution channel. Pontiac will never return to greatness if the last 30 years are any indication. BTW, nearly all the under 25 kids I ever see driving late model performance cars are driving Subaru WRXs, Mitsu EVOs, SRT-4s or Civics. I can hardly remember the last time I saw anyone in a G6. But, then again, I only live in the world's most single important car market (even for GM!) - Los Angeles, CA.

Well, the Solstice may be bringing in folks new to Pontiac, but it sure isn't helping sales is it? As far as Saturn is concerned the jury is still out. It's no great mystery why Saturn sales have gone up (LOTS OF NEW PRODUCT!!!!). But let's see what happens over the next couple of years. I predict little to no growth. BS, Kappa would have little impact on Corvette. Corvette buyers and Kappa buyers are obviously in two different price ranges and are looking for two different things. Kappa is "cute." Corvette is "brute." Chevy having a hard time keeping up with demand would be a new and refreshing change. Can you imagine such a situation? Sounds like a recipe for great resale values. Pontiac and Saturn are the dead brands walking. Correction, Saturn might make more sense if they were simply renamed Opel. The logo is much better. I'd love a new Manta Rallye.

Whatever GM's "corporate reasons" are, they may or may not be valid. I can understand "quality" being a reason for maybe the first year of production. If the real reason is keeping demand slightly higher than supply while maximizing profit plus keeping resale values high, fine. But GM is once again cutting its nuts off by dividing image benefits amongst brands that need and will continue to need for many years help. As long as people remember the N Grand Am and GM continues to sell G6s along Solstices Pontiac's image will never match Lutz's talk. I'll believe an all rear-drive performance lineup when I see it. By the way, who's ever heard of an all performance-lineup from a mass manufacturer anyway? And don't say BMW. BMW may be the "Ultimate Driving Machine" but most folks buy the automatics with the base engines. And BMW's performance packages are mostly bought for looks (speaking as someone who should know). Net-net, I still say 30,000-35,000 Chevrolet Kappas would have helped GM more than 18,000 Solstices and 12,000 Skys.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/23/business...amp;oref=slogin Something feels a bit slanted about this article. NYT pronounces the Sky as a brand image success over the Solstice even though the Solstice sells better overall and the Sky is the "fresher" product. Will Sky sales hold up once the novelty has worn off a bit? I doubt it if the Solstice (and every other new "hot" car) is any indication. The stupid thing about this is, once again, GM could have put a shot-in-the-arm for Chevrolet's brand image if Chevy had gotten this car instead of the lame-duck brands. The Solstice has done almost nothing for Pontiac's brand image overall because there's a lot of bad Pontiac history in people's minds for those who even think about Pontiac. Baby boomers may have fond memories of '66 GTOs and '70 Firebirds, but these buyers now drive Lexus or Mercedes (if they want to show off) or SUVs if they are median buyers. Anyway, Chevy could have sold a ton of these things (PROFITS!!!) and the performance image would have been credible and enhanced thanks to 50+ years of Corvettes.

The 2008 Malibu is the best looking mid-size sedan on the market. Will withhold final judgment until I see one in person. This car perfectly illustrates why the middle brands aren't needed other than to avoid lawsuits and give the "Chevy" factories more production. Too bad no rear seat armrest. What is this 1980? Anyway, it's gonna be a winner.

Maybe. Might be a better approach than the multi-decade death of a thousand cuts going on now. Listen, there's a reason why trees get pruned - for future beautiful growth. Right now GM is an old tree dying because its branches haven't been nurtured for a very long time. The whole tree (especially its biggest trunk Chevy and the part with the sweetest fruit Cadillac is ill while we sit here mourning about the branch Grandma and Grampa had their first kiss under - Buick Pontiac Saturn.

Exactly. Many of us already don't see the point of Saturn, Buick or Pontiac for just that reason. Instead of Buick getting a high-end Malibu, Cadillac should get it to take away some ES350 sales. LaCrosse (or Regal) and Aura aren't prestigious enough for that job and the Buick and even Saturn dealer experience doesn't coddle like Lexus. Again, no sense in throwing away money for the brand rebuilding efforts at the Three Amigos. Cadillac and Chevrolet need it more.

Amen! Let's "pray" GM does the right thing but expect (as always) they'll do the wrong thing. How are these guys still in business?

Wonder what the sales target is? If Toyota spent the same $100M to launch the new Camry and then sold 450K copies that means they spent $222 per car to advertise. Is Chevy aiming that high? If they sell 250K of the new ones (about the same number as the old one) while spending $100M that means they'll essentially spend $400 per car. Add to that GM's supposed health and pension disadvantage per car and you get a picture of what GM's up against. Maybe if GM hadn't axed the Malibu in 1983 and futzed around with Celebrity and Corsica and Lumina for so long we wouldn't be talking about Chevy catching up to Toyota.

Great. Now let's see if they can keep the buzz going year after year. Or will they cut ad spending to the bare minimum so that they can promote the next 30,000 unit Saturn, Pontiac or Buick?

You mean like the way GM is going to build 4 different versions of the same Lambda crossover? With 2 in the same dealership? What GM says and what GM does are two different things. Same with any company. If Pontiac hadn't been selling Sunfires (and Sunbirds and J2000s before that) there might not be any Pontiac to talk about today. GM likes to talk about (and so do we here) how Pontiac is the performance brand. That's mostly fantasy and mythology. Pontiac hasn't been consistently such since the sixties. Ancient history. Thank goodness GM wasn't selling Holdens here 10 years ago. The quality until recently was abysmal. To all you Holden lovers: this division isn't GM's saving grace. They have a cool platform called Zeta, but they produce fewer vehicles than damaged Buick sells in the US alone.

First, I have nothing against American cars (own one) nor the Midwest (have lived there). But, you cannot deny the importance of California as a market. Nearly 1 in 7 Americans lives here. And the South and Northeast are very friendly to foreign nameplates - have been for years. The trend away from American nameplates especially in California is a bellwether for the rest of the country. This cannot be denied. I never said anything about 8 sedans. Chevy could do well with: Aveo Cobalt Alpha (if it ever comes to fruition) Malibu Impala (SWB Zeta instead of G8) Caprice (LWB Zeta instead of Park Avenue/Lucerne) Frankly, though, I think Zeta sedans may be a mistake come 2012 or so when we're paying nearly $5/gal for gas. Even the front drive Avalon with its good mpg will lack buyers then. But that's another thread...

It has worked for Toyota. It hasn't for GM. What can you say? I can say that after watching GM "turn the corner" since about 1981 my expectations are lower than low. Pontiac and Buick have no or low images. Granted, I love Buick's "skyhook" ride and quietness. But guess what? Toyota also has that in the Camry. But wait. Isn't the Malibu the Camry's natural competitor? Yes, that's why the Malibu must also offer a quiet, comfortable ride to be competitive. That's what most American buyers want. Where does that leave Buick? I guess at the golf course with Tiger? Jeep, of course, has an excellent image that no one disputes. Everyone knows what a Jeep is.

I've never seen anyone driving around in a $40,000 Buick here in LA, the country's largest market. However, you see plenty of $40,000+ Chevy Tahoes, Suburbans and Corvettes all decked out on nearly every street corner and in nearly every neighborhood. The people who drive these vehicles are certainly professionals: attorneys, real estate agents, business owners and physicians.

Why would it create confusion? It's another choice. Call it Chevelle. That's funny. Who's lining up NOW to pay $40,000 for a Buick? Most of the Enclaves are going for under 35. But as a Cadillac it could sell for higher. There's no reason why GM couldn't sell a SWB Zeta as a Chevy instead of the G8 in addition to a LWB Impala and Caprice. Bel-Air might be a good name. Better than G8.

You're right. I'd fully expect the Olds situation to repeat itself. But the question is this: what's going to help GM grow? Should GM take the current path where market share shrinks year after year and Buick and Pontiac sales fall? Or proactively give up 50% of Buick's and Pontiac's (unprofitable) sales (250K-300K units) in order to grow Chevrolet by giving Chevrolet BP's vehicles? Or, just as well, take the Buick/Pontiac marketing/engineering money and attempt to get Chevrolet's customer satisfaction and quality scores up to where Toyota's are? I see GM doing nothing to curb the overall slide or grow Chevy. At best they're treading water.

The Enclave should be a Cadillac and the Outlook should have gone to Chevrolet from the gitgo. What are they waiting for?

The current lineup isn't the question. What we're talking about here what GM does in the future. Whatever GM plans to give Pontiac in the future (including the G8) could find a comfortable place at Chevrolet. Of course, you might have to give up your red guages and split grill. I doubt many would cry over that. Does anyone really doubt that the next Impala SS will be just as much of a performer as the G8 and sell at much higher volumes??? I'm sure it'll be "sport-tuned" very well. And Chevy could easily stratify the lineup to please buyers looking for that size car with LS, LT and LTZ trims. Add in a long-wheelbase Caprice instead of a Park Avenue and you've got even more volume and profit rolling in.

Pushing Saturn further upscale and making that image stick is even more of a challenge than PBG. They have good cars and, I've heard, a good dealer experience (gouging on the Sky excepted). But there's nothing in that showroom, again, that couldn't be done as a Chevrolet. To me, the test of how well the upscaling of the positioning is how your neighbor/friend would view your purchase compared to a Toyota equivalent. If you are perceived as smarter and more successful because you bought a Saturn Aura versus a Toyota Camry, for example, then GM's strategy is working. Here in LA that's not yet the case. This is what GM needs to be working on with Chevrolet instead of futzing around with Saturn, Buick, etc. Badging Opels as Saturns and then marketing them as an upscale alternative a la the Oldsmobile of old is another cynical hedge. GM has to give these Saturn dealers something to sell and this was the best plan they could come up with. I don't think it'll round out like they say.

No, the grouping of BPG is called a HEDGE. GM is hedging its bet that if Buick and Pontiac don't revive it'll be able to ax the brands with less pain and fewer lawsuits because the dealers will still have GMC (the sales winner anyway). BTW, if you have to remind GM enthusiast forum board members to "wrap their heads around the reality of B-P-G and think of the three as one" then just think how much of a struggle GM has to remind (educate?) an indifferent car-buying public. Outside of here nobody cares.

It's called the SS. You can find them at your Chevrolet dealer and muscle car auctions across the US.

Chevrolet is not gaining market share, increasing sales or capturing conquest sales from Toyota or Honda. This is a problem. And part of the reason, I believe, is that GM is distracted by two other brands that are essentially unrecoverable. Sorry, but as good as the Malibu is going to be, it's not enough of an improvement to catch the attention of Camcorda buyers (but it looks like a great start). The Camaro is 2009. The Impala 2010. The Cobalt replacement, if on Delta, will not match the refinement or mpg of Corolla. The Aveo's best quality is its affordability - the "new" one is a reskin. Meanwhile, GM is investing dollars at Pontiac and Buick that could be used for shoring up Chevy. I live in LA. People here love the Corvette and the big Chevy trucks. They're everywhere. However, almost no one here seriously thinks of Pontiac or Buick. This is GM's (and every other major carmaker's) biggest market. If these brands can't make it here they won't make it period. Sorry. BTW, Lutz's contention that the GTO did well in LA is interesting. Occasionally, you'll see one, but they're actually a bit of a rarity. The Solstice would do much better at Chevrolet. The Impala SS will handily outsell the G8 and look better doing it. A Zeta Caprice would sell better than the Zeta Lucerne. A EpII BLS aimed at the ES350 would do better than a EpII Regal (more prestige better image). Keep GMC I guess but GM is wasting its time and money on the other two. The effect of adding all these vehicles to Chevy would be to increase Chevy's sales AND AS IMPORTANTLY push the Chevrolet name out into the sea of crowded media messages just that much more.

The Monaro GTO is a fine car. I think it'll do better as a Camaro.