hyperv6

I feel the lack of the manual and new engine is a major marketing mistake. But I would love to see or hear all the facts involved as things are not always as easy and straight forward as they appear. The BS they had to go through and the cost involved for the GTO was crazy and a lot more than most realize. Now that is not to excuse the mistake here but just something we all need to consider. Bringing these cars over is not the same as building them in Lansing. The only way I see to fix many of the issues here is to move the 2016 car built here to the Camaro, CTS and ATS line if it is on the Alpha. This would resolve much of what is involved and let us have more of what we want. Trust me if it was such a slam dunk the people opposed to it at GM would have no argument but when in fact they do. The pace car at Daytona look good in blue and white stripes.

There is nothing that can fix this car faster than 7.0 liters and a 6 speed manual. 415 HP and parking assist the SRT guys must be having a toast right now to a good coming year. Lets hope it make a better race car vs street performance car. There is no excuse to have that little HP and not have an option for more. Hell my 4 cylinder SS will do 0-60 in 5 seconds.

The car looks fine but what I have issue with is 415 HP? LS3? No Magnetic Suspension? No manual? These issues on a 40K plus car is a major miss. Why by this car when there is much better options out there for the same or cheaper price? All that is wrong here can be fixed very easy but why miss on the first try?

Oh god Body kits. For every good one we get 2 dozen kits that look like a joke car from Top Gear. I can see it how that someone will offer some silly oversize wing for the back. Lets pray it is not GM. So far the comment are generally all positive. We will hear a lot of pissing and moaning once the price is given as so many have a silly notion this car will be $35K-$40k and they will be disappointed as it already was made clear it will be more than the GXP G8 that was already that price.

Ok are we fin ished yet?

but this car is radically different body, and quite honestly even though the camo is on it, it sort of looks like a turd. Current cruze is a sexy car. Maybe this will be Beretta II, the gun control chevy. Comment on cars that are in total camo are often misguided and often not creditable. Let them uncover the car and if you hate it then you will have a creditable comment but till then. Too many make foolish statements and then look the fool later when the wraps come off. With a car like this the sales tell the tale more than anything. If they sell like the present one they did what was right if sales drop then they made a mistake. The publics reception is what counts and if they love it more power to them and the profits they reap. Designing a car gets more and more difficult the smaller it gets. Also dealing with the factors like the hood to engine clearance rules and weight reduction make more and more limitations on what we already have. Many people comment positive and negative on the many creases and lines on todays cars but they often are a tool they employ to help make thin metal stiffer and more able to take a hit with out folding. There are few small cars that look good and most look down right silly. As long as GM can make this car appealing to the people who it is intended for and continue to grow sales then fine. To be honest the Verano is a very good car but even it is limited in the looks department. If it was a larger car with more sheet metal to work with it would be so much more pleasing. But I will give Buick or Opel credit for doing the best they had to work with. I may hate this car too but I will save my hate till I know exactly what I am hating. For what it is worth the Cruze is not offensive but it is far from what most would call Sexy. I really do not think you will find many Cruze posters on bedroom walls.

Untill the Camo comes off I would not get too excited. The Camo has made fools of many once it came off. I was suprised the 14 Cruze did not change much, But on the other hand the Mark Ruess has stated what I suspected on the Bu. It was pretty much done before the Chapter 11 it then was shelved and delayed till later and then once it was put back in motion it was already dated. He said when it was going to market they already knew they needed to start on a refresh as the Impala was done completly after the Chapter 11 and got all the new stuff. The story is in the coming Motor Trend. The Cruze will be fine as it is a good car and will only be inproved here. If they can remove some weight it and maintain cost it will do well.

Fleetwood reminds me of Grand Pa's car. I would fear a V Bro Ham, I know I am not being fair but I have had to work on too many ragged out trashed out Fleetwoods to the point they leave a negitive thought when I hear the name. It might be worth looking back to the Eldorado name and offering a Barritz. They did have it as a high end 4 door back in the 50's that are very popular with collectors today. Also they could offer this car as the 2 door coup they showed and still use the Eldo name, I am ok with names but some do not have positive memories for me and some others. I would love to see them dig deeper back for names that will seem more fresh and original.

Looks fine to me and most others on most forums. I get the feeling this may see 7.0 liters. Too many also are going to have to adjust for the price as they are thinking way too low. They many things that will be included here will make a great performance car but it will also add to cost.

If GM can out 340 FT LBS in a 2.0 Solstice at 1800 RPM I am sure they can do something similar. And yes lag is minimal. Many need to stop promoting the myth that you have to hit 8000 RPM to get anywhere and that there are seconds of lag. This cars appeal and sales will continue to increase with time. There are very few here in the midwest and when dealers get them they sell fast. The second and third years will reflect growth, One thing that I read that made me thing was Wayne Cherry was looking at one of these for Motor Trends car of the year, He liked the car but commented that they wasted a good opritunity with the flat boxer engine. He stated they had a chance to make some real styling statments with the low engine few others could do. He said it was something they could have taken advantage of and just missed the chance. The key to this car is price and the fact it is fun to drive. Cars do not have to have 600 hp V8 engines to be fun to drive. I never liked HHRs but when I drove the SS I fell in love with the fun to drive of it, I hated Turbo engines I hated FWD and I am not a wagon guy but the fun to drive and handling of this vehicle is what sold me on this. The fact is the world has changed and technology has given us small engine cars that are very satisfying to most car buyers today. We are seeing torque we did not even see in V8 engines 15 years ago in Turbo 4 engines. Today we all need to keep open minds on many of the new engines as if you fail to you will miss some sweet hardware.

Well the Black was panned by many of the traditional thrash people because it was viewed as soft vs the Kill em All. type of start they had. There were hints in the others of a softer side like One etc. trust me I get bashed by some friends for supporting the black and the two after it. As for St and Mag we all joke the issue was Jame not drinking. LOL! Yes the 50's were a rout but that rout ran into the ground in the 70's. As for 61-62 that is opinion as many people love these cars. I love them more than the later cars. Might also note some of Cadillacs best work was Fin Less. Have been around many V12 and V16 cars at shows the styling is as good as it got in the era and it lead most others. The one used on the Glenmoore Gathersings event poster about 5 years ago was amazing,

This is a case of not abandoning Arts and Science but a case of refining the design language to appeal to a wider segment of the market. Wider acceptance = more sales that = more profits. The black album was a home run and not any groupe or car company is going to hit a home run everytime at the plate. But in spite of Death Magnetic they still fill arenas and make tons of money touring because of the expaned appeal of the Black Album, Cadillac had some home runs in the 50s and 60s but got stale in the 70s and still sold a lot of cars. Same for Benze etc. Once you earn the rep even if you fall short people keep coming back.

No there is no universal appeal but there is what does appeal to the wides part of the market. The real issue is this. The premium car market is only 12% of the world market. Yes it is a small segment but it accounts for 50% of the global automotive profits. While I am not looking for 100,000 units of any Cadillac model I do believe they should appeal to the widest crosssection they can as this is where GM stands to drive more profit than any other car model they sell. Cadillac can be a cash cow of the auto segment and pay for a lot of other good things they need. GM for too long have relied on trucks to pay the bills and now they have a chance for a segment of cars to pay the bills. Now I have nothing with some edgy cars like the CTS coupe but they should not be what all models are and the cars like the sedans need to still look like a Cadillac on first sight but they do need to adopt some elements that do have universal appeal. This can be done and from what I see they will do it. The Arts and Science has done well to draw attention but there are many who have stayed away because of it. If it takes a little softer edge to pick up more of the market and make more profits then they damn well should do it, This is similar to music where some may claim Metallica sold out from the speed metal and did some softer songs. The fact is they expanded their appeal and made more money and gain more fame than they had if they had just slugged it out with their roots only, The one I see getting hit hard is Ford on the premium market. They sold everything and only have Lincoln now and it is still failing to do what they need it to do. GM has a leg up on them and has gain much in the eyes of many vs the other global cars. GM can compete here and will but they need to stand out for the right reason and not just because they capture the love from half of the market while they repulse the other half. While some here may not feel GM has the ability and tallent to come up with designs that are truly Cadillac but still appeal to a larger segment I do feel they do have the people to pull this off. GM needs to gain people from other brands and not just expect people to just change their minds on the Arts and Science hard edges. Lutz started this while he was there and it payed off on the second gen CTS. I expect while it will still have some edge a little softer will only expand the appeal and never be mistaken for a BMW. How many years do you plan to keep repeating the same thing over and over and over and over?

Words of wisdom! What is more important is will these new models appeal to the market on a larger scale than Cadillac already does, Also if they plan to go global at some point they need to appeal to more than the present cars do. I like the Arts and Science but it also is polarizing, the softer lines will help sell more car as long as the hardware under it is up to the task. I would like them to get special tunes to the engines only offered in Cadillac. The new CTS gives me more Euro vibe with a hint of the new Jag sedan.

I am really wondering about the engine package, We have a few new performance LT based engines coming. I expect the 7.0 expected in the Z06. I just read it is expected to be an estimated 550 through 600 HP depending on the final output of the ZR1. It would be nice to advertise the SS as a 427 SS,

I saw the first poll on a GM fan web site and so far it is running like this. Infact better than I expected. 58.43% (208) Love it 36.8% (131) Ok with it 3.09% (11) Hate it 2% (6) other It is not scientific but to be fair it gives a positive feed back that matches many of the comments I have read. Camino if you do not like it that is fine but do not get upset if your hate is not universal. Trust me there are things I would not have done to the car too but the fact is GM needs to go after the market as a whole in multiple countries around the world and appeal to a large group of people. I think they did what needed to be done to get the car through till they replace it. Overal the car has good appeal and will do fine in most of the markets it is sold in. I am just glad they did not get too cartoonish with it and left it a car that would appeal to the euro buyer as much as the American buyer. I just pray they leave off the fake hood scoops of the G8.

We all need to also keep in mind the car Holden has shown is not the performance model.

Camino it is about more than just you. This car will do fine. This car needs to appel more to down under buyers than anything right now as Chevy will be only taking a limited number. Also GM has made it clear that the Zeta is at the end of the engineering and economic scale. This was made clear in their statments and the fact they are bringing a new platform in 2 years, That is unless you are in love with 4000 pound cars? While not as old as the w the Zeta is to an age where most MFG's will replace a platform anymore. Many MFG try not to go more than 10 years anymore. As for your Holden pure blood thinking that is over as GM is working as one anymore not as a bunch of competing divisions. Holden is getting their a$$ handed to them by FWD Asian cars and while the Zeta is holding on it is no where as strong as it once was. Though it is still doing much better than the Falcon. This car will do fine and the Chevy I expect will have more aggressive add ons like the HSV. If you want other models like a Coupe and Ute come back in 2016 as that is your best chance at seeing these models. GM and Holden in the last couple weeks have made it clear there will be no UTE on the Zeta coming to America. You can piss and moan all you like but untill your job is on the line at GM you do not have all he info they have and you future is not held in doubt if things do not go as planned. At this point we are lucky to get what we have now and in time with Ruess we may do better once he gets things in place to provide a economic way to build this line in this country. There is a lot more to this than just what we discuss here. For me this is just the opening act and the main show is to come. Styling is subjective and the like vs dislike is even from the many comments I have read not unlike the Vette. This is a little less hot wheel like than the SRT8 and I expect the car to appeal more to the mature euro like market. Which brings up the fact that it also has to be sold in Europe too. To me the car did not change enough and still looks dated like a 04 GTO. But I can live with that knowing this is a short term car and that the driveline and suspension will be holding the place till the new lighter car is here. It is what it is and you were not going to buy it anyways. I will wait till the final Chevy is shown friday before I pass final judgment on the styling. I expect they will have no trouble making 5000 units and it will secure a place in the market for future RWD at Chevy,.

Get a grip Camino! The Zeta was perfect a few years ago and has hit the end of the line unless you love over weight cars. Besides you would never buy one of these anyways nor would you get a coupe or Ute from this package. The reality is there is a lighter more advanced car on the way and we get the last years of a RWD that will reestablish the RWD segment for Chevy. The coming car will get praised as the ATS has because it will be based on present technology and not 90's technolgy. The only reason I bring the W body in is it did its job for a long time but it finally hit the limit on how much farther it could go. You know as well as I that the Zeta is a very old car that already has been re engineers to the point it has hit the wall. It is better to start with a new clean sheet of paper vs putting more and more money in a old car. This also is a Holden first and GM was not going to invest a lot of money for 5000 Chevys a year to look a whole lot different. I do expect the SS to have more HSV add on parts to spice it up vs the photo of the standard Holden we have here. Also the Chevy Zeta Holden has been selling for years always looks similar to the Holden so changing for a hand full of cars imported here would have been a greater risk. Dude you just have to think and look at the big picture and stop thinking with emotion. Besides you were not going to like this car anyway as it has 2 doors too many for you and would never come here as a ute. If you sit back and watch the next car if built here as I expect could bring with it many more models and changes we would not see if there was no change away from the Zeta. You need to grasp what is going on that they can't tell you as it will suprise you. I I have considered he Omega too for a long time but not sure where it will slot in if at all for Chevy. I still think it may fit at Buick? Also could it be built on the same line as the Alpha? There is a lot going on here and it will be interesting.

Lets keep the big picture in mind. First this is a vehicle for Holden and is secondary to Chevy only since it will be very low volume. Second this car is an old Zeta and is to Holden what the W body was to GM NA. It is at the limits of what they can do and Holden stated this week it is being replaced with a platform already being done for 2016. Big Alpha? If this new car is on the Alpha it could be added to the Camaro, ATS and CTS line. We could then see a cheaper V6 and Ute at this point as there would not be any issue with the exchange rate, The devil is in the details on this car as I expect a better than LT1 engine and magnetic shocks with duel mode exhaust. This car will play in the area the ZL1 and Z06 play as it is nearly in that price range. We knew up front this was not going to be a second coming of the G8. This car is not offensive and should appeal to a large group. It also should do to the Charger SRT8 what the ZL1 did to the Shelby. This car will handle unlike anything in class other than the CTSv and will tear up the track but will give a ride home that will best the 300. The fact is GM knows more of what is to come and could have waited two more years with no RWD sedan or take this limited approach with a top end performance model that will help establish Chevy as a RWD sedan maker again and then being in a wider range of better models. I seen stated that the Zeta was at the limits and that is why the Alpha was made. They could go much farther with a new clean sheet vs re engineering the old platform. It was also cheaper. I expect the chevy will have a little more flash as the Holden posted was not the performance model. But the days of some of the cartoonish Pontiac add ons are over. Don't get me wrong I loved the crazy Pontiacs but I am smart enough to know I was also in the monority when it came to the market as a whole. They just stuck with the cladding a little too long and the G6 GXP's buck teeth just help finish off some of what was wrong at the end. The G8 was not bad but Chevy has to hold to its own look as GM is not going to revisit Pontiac with this car. Like it or not this is only the start and you will need some time for GM to lay out all the cards. We need to look big picture. I know GM is limited on what they can say but I wish they could be more up front with this car and better explain the whats and why we have what we have and this is only step one. Mark Ruess gave us RWD 2 years sooner than he had too. We should be glad he has shown commitment. The old GM Managment Matrix would have left us waiting two more years and not even established a beach head for a new RWD line. While this is not a car for everyone we will see much more in the future is my feeling. 2016 or 17 could be really interesting. GM should be applauded for taking the risk and stepping out into a segment few are willing to start at this time.

Large fins will never come back as few cars are large enought to pull it off anymore. Lets face it the 59 fins were nearly as large a the Spark is today. LOL! The main issue is much of the styling back then just does not translate to the smaller cars of today and you need a lot of sheel metal to pull it off to where it looks right and has the flow it needs to complete the design. Besides the goverment and the insurance companies would declare them unsafe because people on cell phones could back into blind people in parking lots or some other crazy thing.

Well if anyone ever gets around to it the new Holden is due in 2016. I would assume it will also bring a new SS with it. This time it may be built here along with the Camaro? I expect the new Holden will be on the larger Alpha and could and would share the prodution line with The Camaro and Cadillac. This would open the door to a lower priced RWD sedan and along with a Ute that could be built here. Could this be why we did not get a smaller Colorado?

Cadillac's Arts and Science is moving and evolving. While may get hints of a fin the 50's and 60's are well in our past.

I know GM has been on many dealers to update their stores and their service. Some to the point they were going to force them to close if they did not comply. Also while car sales are up now the last year or two has taken a toll on some dealers. We have lost several smaller dealers here of various makes. The ecomomy of late has been to the point a dealer that has not been well run could run into money issues. The dealers here that lost the Saturn dealers have struggled. Some have been able to pick up Nissan or another make whole others just closed and have hurt the other deals that are associated with them. We are in a era where not only will the larger auto maker thrive while the smaller ones will merge or die. The same will happen with many dealers as people are looking for price and some dealers can offer price more so than many others. In the case of the dealers it is not so much size dependent as it is how well they are run. My GMC dealer is doing very well and it is only one make. They are doing so well GM is going to pay for most of their refurbish. GM was going to give them money to do it but they finally got GM to pay for all of it less $300,000 they will cover. GM likes the owner and how well he runs things. They want to get him Buick to take the place of Pontiac he lost. The near by Buick dealer is not liked by GM and is on notice. He did remodel but refused to move near a state route as requested. He also plays games with his numbers. In all there are a lot of reseasons for some dealers to fail and we will see more.

Not really, at least not yet... They are moving about 500~800 a month and a tad under 7000 per year (2012). That is about on par with how many Camaros GM moves in the worst month in 2012. This is a sports coupe so demand tends to fall off after the first two years. The bright side is that they set a pretty modest target of 6000 cars so they are not saddling themselves with over capacity. Already Subaru is giving $400~600 in incentives to move their (more expensive) BRZ against the FRS -- not an auspicious thing for a 1st year coupe. The thing I don't get is that the market for sports coupes is modest enough as it is. Why they want to split the pie -- and the marketing -- between Fuji and Toyota is baffling. This should have been just a Subaru or just a Toyota. I would have preferred that it be a Toyota using a hypothetical "1AR-GE" engine. Basically the same 2.7 liter 1AR-FE Inline-4 in the RAV4, but with hotter cams and drinking premium to deliver about 220hp / 200 lb-ft. For a higher performance version, forget laggy turbos and simply the use a roots compressor on the 1AR engine. A "1AR-GZE" will be good for about 270 hp / 270 lb-ft with zero lag. The latter would be interesting. Again you need to think global! Cars like this and even the Miata live on a global scale and thrive. If you just take Miata, Prelude and Mini sale base just on NA they make little sense but on a global scale they have some very impressive numbers and profits. Even if GM does a small RWD coupe they will have to base it on a global package as the sales just in NA will be ok but they need larger numbers. Second you can not compare the Camaro or Mustang on this yet as they are in a class of their own and many who would buy them would never consider this car. This is why GM is looking into the sub Alpha car. Two different markets and two different customers. . As for Turbo engines there again you must look to the customers and what they want. Also lag is not what it once was like in the GN and Turbo T bird. Well, your assumptions are that the world wants turbos and not superchargers. That has has never been shown to be true. Your assumption that the world generally prefers high specific output, low displacement engines also not shown to be the case. Nobody is buying Cruzes because it has a 1.4T whereas the Civic has a 1.8 and the Focus has a 2.0. When they buy a Cruze, the size of the engine and presence of a turbocharger does not factor into the decision the overwhelming majority of the time and when it does it is not always a positive factor. Also, lag is ALWAYS present in turbocharged engines. It is a matter of degree. For North America, which is the car's largest market, they should have an engine that best meets the regulatory and consumption habits of North American buyers. American's don't care about displacement (one way or the other) -- you might, but Americans in general do not. America does not have a displacement tax either so small displacements have very little intrinsic value (neither does China -- the other uber sized market). The FR-S's MPG numbers -- 25/34 mpg will be easily met with a 2.5 ~2.7 liter four (the Malibu which is a much larger car that is 750 lbs heavier is already @ 22/34 mpg. You comments on engines are normally based on a bunch of number that in themselves do not take into consideration all the parameters that an automaker faces or what the real world drivability really is. Again you fail to take in the other factors such as government taxation in many markets. Yes America does not have the tax here but in a global market the number of engines globally will decrease and become more the same in all markets tax or not. It is a major stipulation of becoming more profitable. You also fail to take in to account that superchargers are decreasing in most markets. In the worlds largest auto market you will not in the other thread I posted the added cost of tax on engine size and in engines over 2.0 it can max out to over almost $900 per car. This may not sound like much but in a county that make much less per person than the United States it is a lot for many that struggle to buy the smallest car. As for turbo lag you tend to conveniently the fact that most of todays small turbo engines true strength is the availability very low end torque that is available at very low RPM. This eliminates the issues of much of the lag and masks much of the issues with it. In my own personal daily driver I have no issue with it as if anything If the boost hit any faster it would be difficult to drive the vehicle in many non dry weather conditions. The car as it is will spin the tires at a moments notice. If anything our Silverado 5.3 has more issue with lag from a slow kick down in the tranny that I feel is due to the cylinder drop system. I have never felt the same thing in the Vette but the lag has been in all Chevy and GMC trucks. I will never declare the Turbo as the savior of ever car or model but in your own example the Malibu the only one so far that has gotten good reviews is the Turbo Bu. The other models were ok but never really set the world on fire or stood out from the crowd. The Turbo engine by no means is a sports car but is just a better set up for drivability and feel. The key to all this is to make the car to drive and feel like it has power. If you can do that the people are happy. If you can do it with the engine sizes that most markets require you save money vs offering other engines in sizes you can only sell in a couple markets. By going global not only on platforms but engines too this will increase profits and decrease spending. I know you like to think you are fully correct and all the automakers not in line with you as misguided but they have to use all parameters unlike what you do here. Time to step up and include all factors into your presentation and just see where this all falls out. I could see one company being wrong but as Drew pointed out in the Cruze thread can they all be misguided? I think not. As for the people they no longer count cylinders or engine size but they do count dollars in tax, they count MPG and they expect performance to the point that the car feels good and comfortable to drive. They want an engine that will return great MPG but will not make them wonder if they will get up to speed on the freeway on ramp.