hyperv6

The interior was never a German strong area.

By the way guys stay creditable. German cars are still pretty good. While they are not perfect they are not the second coming of AMC some like to make them out to be. I think that The Germans, Japanese and Cadillac are all on equal footing today quality wise. They all have their good points and they all have their recalls. The one area I think Cadillac has a real leg up is the less need for routine maintenance. Often the other require service and it is not cheap. My uncle just had the valves adjusted on a 911 Carrera for near $200 and that was a deal.

The more I think about it this is what GM really lacks. GM needs to emotionally connect with their customers again. Look at of even with the problems a BMW has and the high cost of upkeep the car still sells. Why? Because of an emotional bond. We still see here a emotional bond to the past here with many members. Look at Camino while he is frustrated that GM has yet resurrected the UTE here he will still by one. Other here the same. The fact is there are no perfect cars but the more emotionally attached people become the greater the product in the eye of the consumer. The emotional attachment of BMW has been the performance and the ego. They have built some good performing cars over the years but they also have generated an image that people feels that it reflects back on them. you just do not own a BMW but you are seen in their eyes as a BMW owner. Audi has been working hard on building this image too but it had a set back with 6o minutes with the shame unintended acceleration and it still takes time to build this image. BMW started in the mid 70's starting with the Ultimate Driving machine program and built it from there. Cadillac had that image but the market changed and Cadillac did not. Back when they were still trying to reinvent the Deville as a floaty sedan the others were tuning suspensions and drawing younger customers. I feel the ground work has been set with the CTS and ATS. The next thing is to build on it with the new CTS and the Coming LTS. The key is to continue to build. Once they start to earn the trust of the people they will earn the emotional attachment and image they need. I really think they should take the CTS and ATS to Collages and universities to build a image that we are no longer a car for the old blue hairs and let these younger kids see that these cars are the real deal. They may not have the money now but plant the seed and they will remember taking the CTS V on the auto cross track they ran.

My SSEI had no rattles just one water pump and no loose trim or carpet out of place in over 100,000 miles. same for my trucks too. The GTP was noisy from the time I bought it but the noise was not from the trim. The fact is they all make good and bad cars. I have never had to put $4,000 in any of my GM cars. My most expensive cost was tires. In the 30 plus GM car my family has had only the one 78 Buick lost a cam. Other wise repairs have been minimum. Oh and my carpets have all stayed in place.

The Germans fool a lot of people too. Americans have this thing about German cars where they see perceived quality. Cadillac is on part with the Germans. In some areas they lead in other Caddy leads. Too many people have this thing about Germany that they think just because the over anal Germans made it that it has to be better. Good case in point. Years ago a Ford Engineer spoke at our school. He pointed out that in surveys of done here in the states that many people were convinced that the orange peel in the paint on many German cars like Benz, BMW and even VW were because they put the paint on thicker and that was because it was better quality. The fact was it was out orange peel from poor quality paint system. Too often because a group of people do get something right they also get undue credit even when they mess up with the ignorant public. The only thing holding Cadillac back at this point is perceived quality and as far as I am concerned special engines or tunes to set them apart. They really need to give the 2.0 and 3.6 some more HP to make them appear more premium vs. just a shared engine with a Camaro or HHR SS. It is kind of like the steering wheel in the ZR1. It was the same wheel with a different center cap than my HHR SS. All the better for me but a bit of a disappointment if you just shelled out $120.000. At least it looks like they finally have addressed this simple perceived quality item in the C7. Too often it is the little things that make a difference and the public can focus on some of the dumbest things but they matter all the same in their eyes. Cadillac looks to be fast reacting short comings of late and it will pay off. Perceived quality must be earned fairly or unfairly it takes time.

BMW wins mostly of late because of the badge. People have badge envy and they are more worried about being seen in the car than how it fully performs. The key to the ATS V is to offer a performance car that will compete and beat a M3 but will leave enough room to make people still want to pay more for the CTS V. This is where marketing is in play and you have to give appeal to each car where the lower one does the job but the more expensive one will still draw buyers to pay $15K more for this model. Also if you can give different appeal to each model to not only retain the present buyers but also attract those from other brands. To grow the Cadillac brand you must offer some of what these owners like. It is not always rational or logical but it is what they are willing to pay more for. We can play numbers all night long but the key is what will attract buyer and more importantly conquest buyers. What will it take to steal away present customers from BMW and not alienate the present Cadillac customers.

With the traction aids today and the modern compounding bigger is better does not always apply in many cars anymore. Also with todays cars balance is more important than anything so the electronics can do their work. The new C7 is a good case in point. With the electronic and the addition of better tuning to the car it has improved or equal grip with the C6 but with smaller tires. The smaller tires also come into play in the case of increasing MPG with many cars in not just weight but rolling resistance. Times have changes and tire compounding and construction along with auto technology is starting to render some your thinking obsolete. The days of GM just clapping on stiff springs, big tires and big sway bars are over. We will still see some cases where larger tires are used but they will be to compensate for something lacking in the engineering in many cases. Even in racing F1 is a good example where they are running much smaller tires and technology has taken the cars to the next level in performance. The ATS is also a good example where they are now designing cars from the wheel size up vs. the car down and finding a tire to make it work.

I see in another story that GM was testing a V8 and TTV6 and will go with the TTV6 first in the V. They may still be using the V8 car or they may be doing some work for the V8 in the CTSV. Who know this also could have some Camaro parts under this body. I expect much of the Camaro work will be done with ATS bodies on them at some point. That may be why we have seen nothing of the new Camaro at this point. The Other story in Car and Driver said that this car did have larger fenders. The lower opening Is perfect for a large intercooler.

The tires are larger and the fact is larger is not always better if the car is tuned properly. Note the ATS and even the Vette went to smaller tires and have top handling. I went through this with the Goodyear engineers a while ago where they showed me the tip over point that each car has. Once you reach that level larger does not always give you better results. Regardless of the tire it will handle properly. Besides who is to say it is RWD. It may also have a curve ball thrown here with AWD. Having driven this car in AWD it has a very good system. I am not sure what the limits of the AWD system are but a V having it to put the power down would be at an advantage Even my HHR SS can take wider 18" tires but most who have fitted them found no advantage and just added weight. With many cars today they are paying a price in un sprung weight in the name of styling. Who knows it may have the Cheap Corvette 5.3 truck engine. LOL! Just kidding!

I am afraid that the future will shock many here. While we may not get a 4 cylinder Vette that soon there will be some major changes coming in the next 20 years and many will not be happy. CAFE is bad enough but the laws for emissions will drive many larger engines from the market. Just the Volume they put out in emissions will kill them. It could even hurt some of the smaller turbo engines. I foresee the government going for the displacement tax and many states going for miles driven tax. With plug in cars and higher MPG cars they are losing money to waste. The POTUS can do a lot more damage in the next couple years with no fear of reelection in respects to the EPA and what he may let them do. With no over site they are a very dangerous group to auto enthusiast. I hope I am wrong but it is not looking good now and much will be difficult to overturn.

Offering the 5.3 would not be a real popular Stingray option. It would be like offering a V6 in the SS Camaro. the posers generally take what ever is given for the level of trim they can afford. They are worried about radios and the like vs. engines. Offering the 6.2 in the base car would only hurt sales of the Stingray. As for certification how much would it cost? Would or could the same be used in a Holden too to off set cost. Even a Camaro? I really do not expect over the life of the cost would be much. The cam and programming will be the only real hardware change from the other 5.3 engines. To be honest they could even get away with the same engine in the trucks if they had too. Few people would notice or care. Entry level people are just affording a Vette not buying options. Note too the 5.3 used could find it's way into a Colorado or even some kind of short bed full size performance truck. Even the coming Camaro Alpha could use it in a SS model and leave the more powerful engine to a higher model. The higher performance Camaro's will not be cheap as we move forward.

Any LS or LT is a Truck engine or a Camaro engine or a Corvette engine. Just the tune and not so much the size matters. The size in this case only matter as a marketing tool as you do not want to offer the ZR1 engine in the base car anymore than you want the Stingray engine in this car. You have to give incentive to move the customer up and in performance cars the key to moving buyers up is the engine. How fast you want to go is connected to how much you want to spend. I think they could hit the 400 Mark easily with a lesser engine and that is more than enough to make many happy on the roads and streets in a Corvette. We must remember that many people buy the Vette to be seen in not so much drive 180 MPH. I would be shocked of half the C6 cars have ever seen 150 MPH.

Only on a 305 in the Z and TA for 2 years if you want to keep splitting hairs. When you come down to it the Vette has always used a truck engine in the basic scheme of thing. The Chevy V8 has just been so versatile that it has been used for nearly everything and just tuned for each application. It is a truck engine as much as it is a sedan engine or a race engine. The engine is what ever you want to make it. Besides since the LT and LS engines came along I stopped calling them Small Blocks since they really are new engines that just share a few measurements and nothing else.

The Crossfire 350 was only used in a 1982 Vette and killed in the second year of use. Lousy is a understatement as the engine never got old. It will be a new engine in the Vette if they choose to do this as they would not take it backwards. I am shocked they used the LS3 in the SS as it was.

I expect if they go to the bother the 5.3 would not be a truck engine just the same size. Who knows it may be a different engine all together since we really have little to no info on this car to really know. Second it would have DI and VVT because it will need it for better MPG and emissions. It gives GM the flexibility to not just make more power but a better running efficent engine. I expect nearly all GM engines will have these features no matter the cylinder count or price in the next couple years. As for old engines in new bodies they have done it many times. one of the greatest mistakes was the cross fire in the 1984 C4.

To answer your questions. 1. Yes , it would give incentive to those who want more engine to still spend more money on more profitable models or they can save and take less engine. This is no different than a Camaro SS as you can not get a V8 in a LT2. 2, Yes restricted to the base model again would move those with the money to buy the more expensive car and leave this to those who want to spend less or can afford more. They do not offer the SLA V8 in a LT2 do they? And do not say they should as this is marketing and the key is to make the customer find a reason to spend more for a higher profit model. 3 Not sure what you mean by ROI but a fascia change is cheap even at low volume if you can fit it to the present platform. Hell even my HHR SS got new front and rear on a vehicle that only sold around an average of 3000 units per year. GM has even done special fascias for even smaller numbers with no issue. 4 It would change the perception of the Stingray more as it would be seen as a step up vs just a Corvette. I would expect a option code would be used to give it a cool factor if not another name. Manta Ray? Don't make this a bigger deal than it is. 5. A good non electronic handling package. The ability to order the racing seat option if you want it. A selection of radio's you can choose from. Also a Brake option. I would keep it simple and make most simple add on performance options for the weekend racers. I would offer them as a low cost performance office package and leave it as that. This is the car that most will add their own parts too like a Corsa, tires etc. I would include a performance dash but a lesser version. 6 Not available would be expensive systems like the Brembo brakes, Carbon Fiber, any of the larger engines and the magnetic shock package. No heads up, no later additions of a targa or convertible. 7. It would be sold as the less expensive Vette you can build to your own spec and afford. The price for the most part will sell it on its own. Might make a SPO parts group available for this cart that would not void the warranty to draw the younger set that like to do their own work. Right now few in their 20's can buy a Vette and if they do they can't afford to make changes. This age group likes to personalize. This is only a small shot of the big picture. things like this. With the Vette going global what would appeal to other markets in a affordable car? What options would they expect? How many cars does GM expect to sell in this model? What are GM's goals here? What is their thinking on marketing? Sorry our thinking was directed at your questions so much as we had our own thinking going. I would not worry about things set in stone as I am sure that concrete has already been set by this point. It is unlikely we will change anything here anyways.

You are Micro and we are looking Macro. Sorry the future is global. The case in point is the Miata has lived on only because of a global market as has other cars like the Mini. Even Ferrari would wither and die if they only lived on Europe or Italy. Don't think for a minute that the Roadster intro in Geneva is only for a tease of Europe with Chevrolet now there as a global brand. I agree specifics many need to change but we have so few specifics at this point how could we argue anything on that point? We need more info before we option by option. As of now you can only speculate about the target markets that they will look at and can help. Also we need to be wary of the many out side factors that effect the Vette. Obervations of other sports car makers can help us learn how they are working to cope as they face the same issues. The Italian market as well as the Euro market for Supercars is struggling big now. Could a powerful cheaper Vette gain ground there? This deal is more than just arguing what engine size on a car that we do not even know what engine it will have yet. Also you need to think what is good for the Vette in the market and not just what is acceptable to you. They could sell you a car now it's those who they can sell one too that is a concern.

The cost here are not all that much since all models are based on the same car. Only in this case the engines are the once added cost to have more than one for certification. Discontenting the cars cost little but does cut into profits. The trick is to create an attractive package that will still appeal to a large enough group of buyers that they will sell in volumes great enough to make it worth while. No everyone wants a radio/AC delete car so you still need to give them something but at a lower cost. The thing with the Vette is it went from a single model to two and now even more. As the content and performance has climbed it has gone in to challenge even more expensive cars. Right now it is fighting with cars twice its price at a good value but has lost that entry level buyer they always had in the past. I hear many old timers who talk of the days they bought a Vette new right out of high school on money they made on their own. Some were even going to collage and working and still bought one. Today few younger people can even think of this unless they got a job out of High School writing programming for video games. It is no wonder many younger people care less and less for the Vette as they do not ever see owning one in their future unless they win the lottery. House payments, kids, lease on the mini van will take that all away and leave them with enough they can maybe buy a Subaru or some other cheaper performance car. Factor in also that the Vette is really a third car and luxury for most as it is seldom a daily driver for 90% of the owners. Lack of room etc. relegates it to the weekend car. Selling a Million Dollar super car is easy. You sell 1500 over 3 years and people are lined up waiting. The profits are great even at low numbers. But a low price sports car under $100.000 is nearly as difficult as reaching the moon. Yes it can be done but it is hard to do at low volumes under 15,000 unit sold. The Vette is a rare breed as it has done it for so lone but even it is facing a challenge anymore. If Vette sales ever drop below 10,000 units for more than one year things may not be as easy for them. Several Vette directors have publicly stated that there are no free passes on this car just because it is a Vette and they still have to show a profit and earn their keep. Ford did well when they offered the Mustang in the Shelby, GT and 5.0 coupe This combo offered the car to many buyers and they paid for what they could afford. In the Vette the engines can be used as the Ace to drive the buyers into spending more since the rest of the car is pretty locked in mechanically less some of the enhancements like Magnetic Shocks etc. You will still get the same tranny and rear end. You will still have the same frame and other hard points. Either way the car today is in need of more volume and you are not going to increase in the areas of the Z06 and ZR1 so other things need to be looked at. Once the bounce of the new C7 has worn of you need to capture sales from other makes or present people unable to afford the Vette today to retain volume. Interesting to note, Miata sold 364 units last month. Recreational cars in general are a huge challenge. Crossovers are what is being bought. I bet most makes, their 2 top sellers are SUV's / crossovers that sell and make so much money, they subsidize the development and offering now of not only Corvettes and miatas, but even at some point you have to ask the question if its even on the table to have to keep offering so many different sedans. By saying that I just mean it's that much more imperative that Corvette bump up volume now and prove that a new C8 is worth it. You know GM would rather sell more crossovers. At least someone understand the big picture as it is and not as we wished it to be. With Cross Overs it is not just the volumes but the profits per vehicle. With so many in the higher price Luxury range they can pull more profits per unit than even a pick up truck. Is it no wonder so many sports car makers are building a SUV or thinking about building one. The market has fundamentally changed and the Vette needs to find a way and place to remain relevant to more buyers and new buyers. Moving globally will be a great help but it means changes that some may have a hard time dealing with. Some flakes will get soggy for some in the minority.

None of us here hold all the facts - but it sure would be fun if we did. Still, that doesn't stop what we think from being valid. As for Scott, I believe that he no longer drinks. And I am a veteran of such talks. He has stopped from Alcohol but you can still buy him a beverage. A man gets thirsty when dispensing facts. LOL! I know you have sat in but with some of the things you come up with at times makes me think you need to sit down again and really see where GM is at today and not look from where they were a few years ago. Things now for better or worse are different and to predict where they are going you have to use their present thinking. All I can say is one shift in the light truck market based on reactions to government regulations and the gas V8 could be out the door pretty fast. With the larger truck mostly going Diesel now and few cars using them GM could make a fast shift in the market. Unlike you most people today do not own a V8 and more than half of them have never owned a V8. The ground under the future of the V8 is much like a sink hole. It may hold up for 5 years, 10 years or 15 but at any time it could all of sudden change and drop like a sink hole. Today all the cards are on the table and the V8 is not holding a trump hand. The Ace they have is the 1/2 ton truck and it can be lost at any time if the wrong things fall in place. I am not trying to be doom and gloom but this is the reality of todays market. We no longer have millions of sedans and coupe supporting this engine and we do have smaller engines that can produce more than enough to power the smaller and lighter cars of the future. I think GM will hold on as long as they can but the clock is ticking and one day the time will run out. The LT1 is better on fuel but it is not enough. So many things that we took for granted for years like bench seats, wagons, coupes and other past popular things are now gone. Nothing is sacred with automakers and even the buying public. The loss of Pontiac almost went with out a whimper by most. The Vette guys faced a similar situation in the past. In the late 70's GM had planned the killing of the V8 and they were looking for options. Chevy put a V12 BMW engine in a Caprice. The Vette boys put two V6 engines in a Citation to see if they could get two motors and AWD to work. I think we are back to this kind of thinking as if and when the hammer drops they need to be ready. Till then we will have a V8. The real goal now is to sell more volume and to do so you are not going to see a long term increase in Z06 or ZR1 models. Also with the car going to Europe and China engine size is a taxing matter. Smaller engines will come into play and we will see it first overseas. On Top Gear this week they stated word in England is the Mustang will not be coming with a V8 over there. Just the smaller twin Turbo and 4 in Europe. It will be interesting to see if this holds true. IF it does it will be very telling of Fords thinking.

Too bad you are not privy to all the info GM holds. Some how thinking changes when you hold all the facts, figures and demographics. It is a whole lot different than just running GM web. Next time you are with Scott ask him just what all goes into planning like this. Make sure you have 4 hours and you are buying him something to drink.

This car just tells me they are buying time till they get the Alpha car out and either eliminate this one or replace it with a new size car. I almost think if they replace this car with the Alpha based sedan that is coming it would breath room for the Regal to grow a little and even give the Verano room. Let keep in mind Buick is working with left overs as they really have yet to rebuild outside of the Encore being the only post chapter 11 model full done after the money came in.

The cost here are not all that much since all models are based on the same car. Only in this case the engines are the once added cost to have more than one for certification. Discontenting the cars cost little but does cut into profits. The trick is to create an attractive package that will still appeal to a large enough group of buyers that they will sell in volumes great enough to make it worth while. No everyone wants a radio/AC delete car so you still need to give them something but at a lower cost. The thing with the Vette is it went from a single model to two and now even more. As the content and performance has climbed it has gone in to challenge even more expensive cars. Right now it is fighting with cars twice its price at a good value but has lost that entry level buyer they always had in the past. I hear many old timers who talk of the days they bought a Vette new right out of high school on money they made on their own. Some were even going to collage and working and still bought one. Today few younger people can even think of this unless they got a job out of High School writing programming for video games. It is no wonder many younger people care less and less for the Vette as they do not ever see owning one in their future unless they win the lottery. House payments, kids, lease on the mini van will take that all away and leave them with enough they can maybe buy a Subaru or some other cheaper performance car. Factor in also that the Vette is really a third car and luxury for most as it is seldom a daily driver for 90% of the owners. Lack of room etc. relegates it to the weekend car. Selling a Million Dollar super car is easy. You sell 1500 over 3 years and people are lined up waiting. The profits are great even at low numbers. But a low price sports car under $100.000 is nearly as difficult as reaching the moon. Yes it can be done but it is hard to do at low volumes under 15,000 unit sold. The Vette is a rare breed as it has done it for so lone but even it is facing a challenge anymore. If Vette sales ever drop below 10,000 units for more than one year things may not be as easy for them. Several Vette directors have publicly stated that there are no free passes on this car just because it is a Vette and they still have to show a profit and earn their keep. Ford did well when they offered the Mustang in the Shelby, GT and 5.0 coupe This combo offered the car to many buyers and they paid for what they could afford. In the Vette the engines can be used as the Ace to drive the buyers into spending more since the rest of the car is pretty locked in mechanically less some of the enhancements like Magnetic Shocks etc. You will still get the same tranny and rear end. You will still have the same frame and other hard points. Either way the car today is in need of more volume and you are not going to increase in the areas of the Z06 and ZR1 so other things need to be looked at. Once the bounce of the new C7 has worn of you need to capture sales from other makes or present people unable to afford the Vette today to retain volume.

How's that supposed to be cheaper? Displacement reductions save zero dollars in terms of production costs. If they really want to make a "cheaper" corvette, the simple thing to do will be to drop VVT, drop cylinder deactivation and drop Direct Injection. Displacement stays so tooling and reciprocating assemblies can be common for economies of scale. Going to a V6 makes even less sense. Any V6 powerful enough for a vette -- even an entry vette -- would have to have two turbos and an intercooler assembly (or two of them). Any bi-turbo V6 will cost more than the V8. But honestly, I don't think they will touch the engine. Simply eliminating the removable roof panel (which most drivers don't care for anyway) is a given. I'll actually pay extra for a fixed roof since I have zero desire for the sun and very much prefer additional stiffness and elimination of a source of leaks and noise. Switching from carbon fiber back to fiber glass for the hood, eliminating magnetorologic shocks, dumping the variable muffler system and going to smaller wheels w/ taller sidewall tires will save enough money to drop the price tag to "early" C6 levels. Want to save more money? The stitched leather dash can be replaced by Cruze style fabric coverings and the leather seats can be decent vinyl instead (contemporary vinyl can be pretty good actually and they use it on about 1/2 the BMW 3-series or C-class sold). Next comes the stuff that start to hurt desirability but are not particularly essential -- dropping power seat adjustments (which actually saves weight), dropping powered steering wheel adjustments, dropping seat heaters (the base BMW 528 doesn't have it either), dropping auto-dimming mirrors, dropping Navigation, going to halogen projectors instead of HID and, yes, eliminating non-regulatory airbags (you only need the two front ones to meet regulatory requirements). The point here is that all of the aforementioned save money to help make the car more affordable. Changing displacement does not. In fact, changing displacement actually adds to the overall cost of corvette production by adding a discrete engine model (which cannot be the Vortec version because the intake manifold would have been too tall). Again you miss the big picture! The Idea of a smaller engine with less power is pure marketing. The idea is to make the more profitable car more attractive to not just the guy who what's the real leather seats over cloth but also to the guy who wants more power. Profits are in the cars with the most options and the one key option that is a driving force to get people to spend more money is power. Hence the more powerful engine in the higher content car. This is more than just prices and cost it is about peoples buying habits and how to drive them into spending more money. The lower model is still there for those who can do the work themselves or if that is all they can afford like the LT2 Camaro. Low end cars are for profits by volume the high end cars are for pure profits at low volume. this is how the luxury segment is making 55% of the automakers profits. with only 1/5 of the cars sold. It is simple you put the large engine in the cheap car and you kill profits or sell twice as many cars. Not an easy task in a 2 seat market.

I do not see anything too goofy coming as GM looks to keep these vehicles as much like a normal car as possible. GM wants it to ride, drive, feel and look as much like a normal car as possible. GM has resisted the science fair project look as well as the golf cart look. I see the expansion will be coming with new models and I see more coming on the Gen 2 platform. Other than the plug in deal they want you to feel at home in a regular car. No the key is to reach regular car like pricing for the slow growth market to change to a fast one. Even then growth will be limited as these are still not cars for everyone.

So you know more and considered all the factors known to a 33 year engineer like Tadge Juechter and know better? The is more at stake here than just MPG. What if the V8 at some point in the next 15 years is pulled from all cars at GM? Odds are against it but in that time span things can happen fast enough to change that. Juechter wants and will keep the V8 as long as he can but even some things are out of his control. There is a lot more in play here and it may come to the point they may be faced with this. While I think the odds are still in our favore with the v8 things can change and change fast. As for Europe and else where taxes and other issues with engine size come into play and a V6 Turbo may play well in other parts of the world and sell even more Vettes. Please look big picture. The bottom line is if the lead engineer in the Vette team is concerned enough to have a V6 contingency plan then there is a possibility he feel good and well he may need one and has a damn good reason to be ready. Sorry if I do not trust you may have all the fact but I know Juechter does to I will yield to his discursion. I think he may just have an inside edge on what is in play and what this car may face.