hyperv6

Well I can see by the post here why no one wants to talk about the new Mule photos of the Mid Engine C8 that are out. Chris took the photos so it would be cool if he could pop in here and tell us more if he can. I suspect he may have been given a chance to get these photos to counter the new Ford GT news at Detroit. Oh by the way I was wrong I expected the mules by next August. GM is working faster than I had heard I was off by 7 months Sorry LOL!

I like this package but I still would like to see a sport package 2 wheel drive with a handling package. Kind of a full size ZQ8.

Thanks!

While it is easy to say the 08 would not have fair very well that long term. It already was showing its age at the end of its life cycle. GM was looking to pare weight down and to move to an all 4 cylinder line and the 08 would have not faired all that well. My 08 comes in well over 3600 pounds while the 2014 even in turbo trim is 500-800 pounds lighter. GM was just in a place where they had to use what they had and hold ground as well as they could till the new platform arrives and that is what is happening now. If they had made changes to the 08 model it would not have seen much more than a fascia front and rear and some interior fixes but not much else. I really don't think they would have attempted the Turbo. Also many of you do not address how the present car was spec'd for global sales in China and many other countries that now require the hood to engine clearance my 08 does not have. This is one of those deals there is even more in play than they will ever tell us. By the way did I miss the new Volt post. I have seen comments everywhere on the web and wanted to see what many thought here.

I have no issue if someone wants to challenge anything I post if they have a reasonable or sound statement. In fact I love the challenge that makes me substantiate my own opinion as it makes me build a stronger case or abandon it if I am wrong. To me it is like sharpening a blade and the more you work on it the better it can becomes. I do hold the line when people get personal or twist things out of context from what I stated. My friend has a history of this with me in the past and he started to head that direction again. I had been away for a while and checked in here again just to test the waters again. I liked it here for along time but lost interest a good while back. Now being back I have enjoyed the respectful exchange with you and the others. I am a normally very tolerant guy so blocking is not my normal practice and I have been on some pretty tough forums. He can have his say and I mine and we do not have to tangle. All I ask is trust me on this one as an administrator. Things were just fine till I removed the block and I just chose to return to that status for the good of everyone. If anyone wants to debate cars bring it on I am game. LOL!

This was similar to the 57 ad accept it was in a large parking lot with one of ever model moving or parked. It was kind of like those annoying paintings with 50 GTOs in a gas station parking lot. LOL! It would make a nice poster as it was the same 50's artistic drawing ad like they normally used. I love these ads as I cut and kept many from old Saturday Evening Post I used to find at used book stores for a nickel a piece as a kid. I really wish someone would so a book with all the Pontiac ads from the 60's. There is a book out by one of the artist that Wangers is selling. I got a signed edition of it when I met the artist. I would love to see a modern car done up this way like a CTSV.

You need to deal with the realities of today 2015. #1 we could have more coupes and wagons if people wanted them. How many times do companies have to try and fail to prove to you these segments are just not strong enough to support more? . #2 Sedans are what people want and now are being replaced buy the CUV. The CUV even is killing the minivan. It comes down to a vehicle with the most useful space inside and still getting better than SUV MPG. People today look for practical more than stylish. #3 having 72 versions of a single model just would not work with todays market. People want and expect Choices and if you do not offer them they will go elsewhere. #4 You also have to consider back then they also made major styling changes every 1-2 years. Today they make changes on one product line about every 5 and that is as they cycle through 5 different lines. You would never see a major restyling on one model every year even if it is the only model you offer. FYI: I took you for your first paragraphs said. The second paragraph was taken as a separate statement. "That's actually the direction the industry needs to go in; More variation Less Lines. Having 4 or 6 sedans under the same brand separated by 4" in over all length is poor resource allocation". Was the comment I was responding too. It has nothing to do with the Sonic and Spark unless they are offering 4 or 6 sedans within 4" of each other. I had your post blocked as I got tired of you being a pain in the ass. I may just have to do that again. You are stuck in 1959 and just want to be argumentative.

Un fortunately the world has changed and people today demand more from everyone. Just look at the menu at Mc Donald's and think back to when all they had was a burger Fish and a fry. The issue is in the value segment that Chevy plays in it is the be all for everyone anymore. The driving force in the future is the need for more MPG balanced with keeping a car as affordable as possible yet not losing quality. Then packaging it into something that is livable. Not an easy task anymore. I can assure you if a product planer could get away with it they would love to do one model and make 72 variations of it. But then again that is getting to where the platforms are now. We are down to what 3-4 at Chevy in the cars and they are making how many cars out of them?

The Encore is pretty much the same thing but for the price difference it is the winner for interior and quiet. As for the other issue of it being a Buick Most people would not own a Chevy if they would not own a Buick. The key to both of these vehicles is to capture buyers from other makes. The Buick has done it with levels of trim you can not find on the imports in this size and price. Chevy has none of that going and they will have to earn it alone on appeal and price.

But yet this is where my concern is. How will the Trax affect the Encore sales? Will it take from Nissan and Toyota or will it take only from Buick? GM is only going to market the Trax on Social media and this worries me as I see many older people driving the Encore. You may say well that is because it is a Buick. Well I have also seen many older people in the Scion, Cube, Rav, Juke, HHR and PT. Honda was first out with the smaller odd utility wit the Element and tried to sell it to collage kids only to find out most buyers were 50 and older. Not sure what it is but these odd small CUV models attract older people too and I think not marketing with regular advertising may be a mistake. I am sure the Trax will do well just I wonder if they will leave anything on the table where sales could have been better. As for the Encore it is not that much more and will offer a much better interior. I just wish they would bump up the power to make it even more a value for the price and off set the difference between the similar models.

The fact is the value segment has only so much room and they have to offer so many different models. It is the 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag deal. Ford and Chevy are limited up to $50K on their FWD and Sedans. You get over that and there are just too many good cars to just settle to buy a Ford or Chevy unless it is a Shelby, ZL1 or Corvette. The reality is the SS will go away and this will let the Impala stretch to a higher price with some performance options lifted from the XTS? The next Malibu will be more expensive but it will be a smaller Impala. I see the Impala being the V6 car and the Malibu will be the Mid range 4 as they already are. The Cruse is really a car targeted at the smaller lower price group but Lutz wanted the Cruze to be the best equipped car in class. This raised the price but in the end it also sold more cars to people wanting a better car in this class.. The reality is there is going to be some over lap in Ford and Chevy on their models as neither has enough room to not have some overlap. As for Chrysler they just don't have enough models to over lap yet. The issues of not having a really sold small car line has hurt them for years and even now the Dart and 200 are much better than what they had but are still not even close to class leading cars. With all the changes in Café that are coming we will still see a lot of changed to come. Smaller engines and even smaller cars will become an issue and keep everything in flux. I laughed the other day where I found a Chevy ad from 1957 with the entire car line up. They showed about 15 plus versions of the 57 Chevy and the Corvette n a parking lot. That was the line up to models with a bunch of trim levels on one. times have changed and we are not finished seeing the changes.

If they need a second plant that is no issue as GM has too many plants already and opening a closed plant or adding production to a present one will not be an issue. Ingersoll will need new product soon if the CAW will work with them. Same for Oshawa. Either way needing more production is a good problem. The real key is how well will the Chevy do here. Will the people go big with it or just temped interest?

Spark = nothing Sonic = Fiesta Cruze = Focus Malibu = Fusion Impala = Taurus SS = nothing At least that is how Chevy sizes them up The match ups are behind on the Cruze and Bu as GM is behind in terms of product and the new models will soon arrive.

I am waiting to see how Encore sales remain once the Chevy hits the market. I hope GM has some plans to make these two models more different. While the Encore is more expensive I see it a better value in the long run over the Chevy.

Well GM is in the process of realigning their products and platforms. Future Cadillac's will be more expensive as will the Buicks that will fill in the gap left by Cadillac. This will bring room for the Chevy line to spread out a bit. With the loss of the SS it will give the Impala room to expand and offer more options it could not at the price point it was held too. As for what can they offer the list could go on for ever but the key is what can they package into the car to remain at a Value price point. Chevy is the most difficult car to market and price as when you have more room you can all sorts of things but when it is being held to a price you much offer the things most valued or perceived by the customer that brings value to the line. GM with their trickle down technology can also bring things from the Buick and Cadillac lines that the development cost is already covered on. Things like AC seats and heated steering wheels etc. Package it up in a good solid looking package with above average quality and they will bit on it. We have seen this with the present Cuze.

Well this is why I believe things will be different this time. The last two Malibu's were done under duress. The 08 was really just a better car on the same platform with a lot of help from Bob Lutz to make it more appealing. Let put it this way he did a lot with so little to work with. It helped the others in the segment were also nothing that engaging. Now on the Bu we have now. I is simple it was a an old design carried over till they could get it out to buy time till they could get a new platform. It was a car cooked up under several different people and it lost the Lutz factor that could have put a little more lipstick on this pig. Today GM is not the same GM of old. They now have money and are making money again. They had the time to get the new platform done. The folks overseeing this car are the same people who are over seeing the new product like the Impala and the coming Camaro and other recently new products of GM that have shown marked improvements in all areas. Folks we are coming out of a transitional period and there had to be come compromise and some delays as so many things needed down and there is only so much money for so many programs at a specific time. The man power alone can not so it all either. These are not excuses but rather the nature of the business. Like many of us at home we would like to concrete the drive, build the pool and build a new 10 car garage for our new Corvette Collection we bought at Barret Jackson. But like the reality we may be able to so many of these things over many years but not in one. The long and short of it is this car was in the planning before the present car came out and with the new platform it will yield many good things and bring many surprises I feel to the model. Lets face it GM is now a company that is willing to let Cadillac go large with their own stuff as they should vs. just making do with what ever they can get from the other divisions. I do not see them short cutting the new Bu as it is a very important segment. GM 5 years ago would have taken the cheaper way out but today things are much different. Again this is big picture stuff and you have to consider all the factors not just the ones you know about.

The truth behind the Hellcat is it was a cry for attention more than a pure car guy love thing. With Ford coming out with a new Mustang and the new Camaro just around the corner there were problems at the newly arrived Fiat/Chrysler. The Challenger/Charger is a very old platform based on even older Benz parts. The car is due for a make over as well as many needed updates as it has always been hampered by a poor interior and too much weight. the interior is easy to fix but the new platform is still several years away while Ford and GM walk way in the spot light. So they dust off this engine program and stick it in the cars they have to buy time and attention till the next model is ready. This engine is a very good engine but the platform is just not letting it show all it could be. The weight issues are still a problem and though the numbers are good they should be better as the engine management has to step in s much as the platform can not use all of the power. My hope is the engine lives long enough to make it to the next revamp of the platform and really get the home it deserves. Right now the engine is like putting track shoes on grandpa. Today cars are finally moving to where it is the whole package that counts and not just an engine. We see this in the Z/28 where the entire car fits all its parts and make use of the sum of all its parts. This is also where the Mustang is going and the next Camaro will be. As for power like this it is not difficult to make as GM did it with the engine for the ZR1. Right here we had a engineer from GM that had to retract his comments as he spoke too much and stated the new engine could easily pass emissions and durability testing up to 725 HP with no problem. He came to the administrator at the time and myself asking for his post to be removed. The key to note here is the ZR1 had about as much HP as it could really use as more power was not going to make it a better car. Now we see in the Z06 where the entire package was addressed and now even testers like Randy Probst state it could easily handle 100 more HP. This is where we will see more in the future because the car can handle it. HP for the sake of just HP means little other than on paper. It works good for media but in the end the product still comes up short. I really find the new engine great but sad it was not given a home to where it could fully be used. Chrysler and Fiat have a lot of work to do as while the 200 and Dart are better than the cars they replaced they are not great cars. The trucks are winning with features and cheap pricing. Only Jeep is doing all that great and I ponder how well a Fiat based platform on an imported vehicle will play with the Jeep fans. I expect it to fair as well as the Compass as this group is not easily fooled. I am glad they built this engine as it shows the engineers are alive there but it is time for Fiat to show some real commitment to Chrysler if they can afford it. That is the real question can they afford it? With take over rumours by VW etc. I suspect things are not all that strong there. With their moves at Ferrari it is down right scary.

I agree with you that we may see them someday but I suspect it may be a little while longer. I really think the key is to first get molded Carbon Fiber product worked out as this will lower the time to make them and make it cheaper. Labor time is a killer making carbon fiber parts. Then to make them stronger. The Motor Wheel wheels were pure composite but I have pondered a light steal reinforcement that would give it a foundation but used with carbon fiber to make it lighter? By the way Motor wheel is the same company that made the original rubber inserted wheels that GM used. These are yet today some of the heaviest wheels I ever saw. Someone bought them away from Goodyear and I am not sure who they belong to today.

Sorry when you put a bed on a Cadillac car it just becomes a flower car. Gene Winfield the famed customizer made these for a good while in the 70's and they never caught on. I would rather see them so one based on the Alpha Camaro.

Not if you will see the wheels any time soon on OE. The body and chassis is very isolated from the hard things in the road. Wheels on the other hand only have the tire for protection. In most cases today very little tire is protecting them. The prime issue is with a composite wheel is they do not bend or distort. Even a case will give a lot before it breaks catastrophically. If you ever spent time at a race were carbon fiber is used you will note it does not ben it breaks and when it breaks it breaks in a lot of pieces. It is made save for use in race chassis as it is made to crumple and has crush zones. These factors are great on a chassis but not good on a wheel. Wheels take a brutal amount of force and are asked to face forces many other parts will not take in the car. A of now we are not seeing these wheels even in racing so I think there is still a lot of work to do. You may see a limited number of aftermarket wheels but OE is a ways off due to cost and durability. The real question is how much weight would be saved by the time the wheel is OE safe too. The Composite wheels Motor Wheel made were lighter but not by much. Not enough to warrant the cost or the risk.

These types of wheels have been around for a little while. Until the cost comes down it will be a while till we see them in OE use. Someone will have to perfect them making them molded and also show they are stronger in all applications and conditions. Motor Wheel made wheels for Shelby and Pontiac in the mid 80's. These were a composite plastic fiber. Motor Wheel was owned by Goodyear and that is how Shelby got in. Pontiac was testing them on the Fiero. The wheels were seen in photos of the 1990 Fiero GT prototype as they had a similar look to the 1990-91 Olds Cutlass International Series look. I knew a Goodyear engineer who has a set on his 85 Fiero but at the time I did not know they were composite 16". I would kill to buy these off the car today but it has been 15 years since I saw the car. I know a GM marketing manager with one wheel and he is the one who showed me they were plastic. I never got why they never went forward with these as there was a lot of press in 84-85 and then nothing. It may have been cost or liability. I know in the real world a 22 inch wheel with a 45 series tire is asking a lot of it. Here in the mid west lesser steel wheels do not fare well as it is. I would really have to see the results of these new carbon wheels before I would be looking for them in OE applications. I think one key will be improved suspension and lighter cars that will make these composite wheels a reality but as it is with the 4000 pound cars we have that is asking a lot of a wheel. Carbon Fiber is strong but at least with most aluminum and steel they will bend with damage but with carbon it will break and in most cases a catastrophic failure.

As long as GM understands dose it really matter? These terms are for internal use and for car geeks like us to debate. The general public has no idea or care what you call them other then the name on the trunk lid. As for the features. The public has come to expect specific things in a car. If these things are not there many people will pass no matter if they understand the realities or not. this is part of the perceived value they see in a car. Many people can afford a Fusion or Hyundai but they dream of a Audi. They may not get the attributes of a real Audi but they can get the DOHC and the LED lights that the Audi has. The key to selling a car is perceived value and if you think you are getting a better car you will buy it. This is nothing new as Chevy offered the OHV V8 back when you could only get it in the Cadillac and Olds in the GM line up. Also they went to fins in 57 as this is what the more expensive cars had. Back then they marketed the 57 Chevy as being like a Cadillac in many ways. There are two ways to build a car. You can give people what they need or you can give them what they want. If give a choice they will always take what they want or perceive to be better no matter how good or bad it is. The first thing you need to do when you are building a car for the market is try to meet or exceed the customers expectations or what they precise is important or of value. Case in point. We all could live our lives easily in a Chevy Spark. It will get us to work and back and do about all we need on this side of a pick up truck. This is the same argument of push rods and anything else that is out of style. But if all Chevy sold was the Spark they would not sell a lot of cars. So they offer a full line to meet the needs and wants of people. Generally people try to buy the most car for the money they have. Few people buy the base car but most try to load them up with many things they really don't need but things they want. Same applies here as you can either give the public what they want or you can lose the sale to the company that will give them what they want. You have to look at the big picture here. There is more to this than just what they need as what they want or expect plays an even greater part.

AWD will come in time but right now the price and weight may be an issue. Let them get a little more upscale and then use one of the more advance Haldex system as an option. Right now to get a system strong enough and advanced enough to handle the power may be costly for what people will pay for the present Cadillac. As time goes on they will see the value and then the price would not be as tough to pass on. I expect once Cadillac moves to their own drivetrains and lines they will make this an option on most levels.

Drew based on what I just read in the last 6 days the E2XX is termed the all new platform for the Malibu. Z you are correct the Insignia will be the second version globally. I was only speaking on the NA market. The mules for the Lacrosse and Malibu are out and it could be the Lacrosse model may really be the Regal? It would make more sense. I have never seen E3XX used anywhere. Now some also claim this platform will replace the Lambda at some point too. I have seen little info on this but it matches up with GM wanting to cut the number of platforms. The Theta is going to the D2XX as it is.

E2XX platform which from my understanding is not the same as the Epsilon II. We do not know the details yet but it is not a full carry over. This is much like the D2XX where it is not a Delta II and is going for more weight reduction and flexibility. The long and short of it the platform will not just be a straight carry over platform from the present car and will underpin future mid and full size FWD and AWD cars and SUVs. Little has been leaked but the E2XX is all new.