hyperv6

I was lucky to be around John Lingenfelter back when he was racing the Eco. He was using the stock block and head up to 1500 HP before the head cracked. It was the Saab version that the LNF was patterned after. I expect the Ford also will be able to take a fair amount of power because today the MFG are not short cutting these engines and are building them to take much more abuse than ever. I see daily 23 PSI of boost and back in the old SVO and GN days 12 PSI was a lot. Things like Sodium valves, the pistons are oil cooled the DI cools the cylinder, standard compressions have risen. The crazy part is how stiff the Ford and GM blocks are now and they are lighter. The Ford is a good engine but the GM is as good or better but they did such a bad job of marketing it most people have no clue. Anyways I can see the after market taking these engines on and doing much with them. The only question I have is how will the insurance companies deal with them. Will they swack them for younger drivers or will they give them a break from the V8. If they give them a break the younger buyers may take interest. These cars can be the American Skyliner. It is not easy to drift a FWD Civic.

Thank you and thank you! This segment is all about how fast do you want to go? How much are you willing to spend? The last real value performance car was the Fox body Mustang. They were cheap to buy and cheap to make fast. The new car is not like that anymore as are the others in class. Most guys buy as much factory speed as they can and then it is still not cheap to make it faster. I hope the two turbo cars make it easy to go faster as you can add 50+ HP and 80 FT LBS with just a flash and two 3 bar maps if it only has two. I did it and my torque was limited to 65 FT LBS because of the tranny. The Solstice with the same kit gains 80 FT LBS to 340 FT LBS out of a LNF. Note too this set up was is under the full GM warranty too so it is not near the edge. Here is a book everyone needs to read. It is getting older but still applies to the new engines that can do even more. It list out how far you can take an Eco engine and it will amaze you. Might look around as some folks have put it on line. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88958728 This little engine rivals the ZR1 in performance per cylinder.

Drew here the trick is the low end and flat power curve of a DI Turbo engine. That is where the acceleration is. It also is why most of todays DI Turbo engines are now making more torque than HP. I learned a lot about torque playing with Pontiac's V8 engines the 428 in particular. The other key has been the Variable timing as it sets up the flat torque curve with the pressure charge and the DI lets the base engine hold more compression as they can go 9.5 with a turbo with the cooling fuel charge direct into the cylinder. As for the claim above about the open road. Most vehicles including large SUV models can go down the road and maintain 65 MPH on as little as 30 HP. GM is now working on a V8 that will drop to 2 cylinders while cruising down the road to save more fuel. I suspect the performance numbers based on what we know about the engine and the weight of the car will produce as good or better performance than the 2.5 is now. GM in their drivetrains seldom takes a step back in performance. While getting smaller nearly every case it makes more power with less engine. Torque makes for efficiency.

But as a consumer you will be drawing a line somewhere, correct? Lets say I can absolutely safely afford a 35k car. 2 cars are on that list and 1 isn't. I can get some extra options on those other two as well. A smart consumer will find out what they can comfortably afford and draw a firm line there no matter what. $5K is not going to move me one way or the other. Most people in this class already spend more than the base price for the SS anyways as most are well optioned to start with. This is not an entry level class anymore not has it been for years. Pontiac did the same thing with the TA as it was a Camaro with some restyling and some extra options include standard. GMC does it now with a slightly higher price but more standard features. Now here is the real factor in this class. We are not comparing Accord, Malibu, Camry, Fusion. These cars are more inclined to be cross shopped. But you get to a Mustang, Camaro and Challenger the customers are more like the truck market and band loyal. GM has generally been more expensive with the Camaro than the Mustang for years but have offered some extra things. If there is any cross shopping with the Camaro, Mustang and Challenger it is mostly with engine inside the model. If you are so broke you can not afford a V8 you are going to go with the V6 in the same segment or just not buy at all. Few Mustang and Camaro owner will swap brands. As for the 4 cylinder most will be new owners to the brand as this engine represent a different demo than what the V6 and V8 already cover. Sure some may move down to play but most of the others are V8 till I die kind of customers. If this was a general appliance like car then yes I buy your argument. But this segment is not that kind of segment and anyone willing to buy an SS is not going to let $4K stop them. Look at what the addition of $4000 to a payment for one of these cars and few who are buying will not stop them. Most would have ordered the RS package anyways so they are already getting what they would have optioned anyways. In the end do not expect to see discounts and rebated on the Camaro in the near future. Also I expect them to pick up the pace they had a year ago with the old car. Also factor in too that no one with a stable mine pays sticker either. The prices will be below these numbers we see so the they be cheaper than posted.

I have no beef with the Mustang turbo. I wish GM had matched the HP. But to condemn the Camaro for the things you listed before you have seen one let alone been in one is as short sighted as condemning a Mustang Turbo and praising a Camaro Turbo. The back seat is not great in any of these cars if you are honest and to be even more honest it is not a priority. If it is the customer is buying a sedan anyways. Now if any of them were a sedan with a cramped back seat then you would have a legitimate issue. Again if you are honest when you look at the cars sold by all three makers most are at least optioned to the same degree. Very few base models are built let alone sold. The fact is what most customers are getting are similar in price and equipment regardless of what the base model offers. The fact is we sell parts to these guys that buy these cars and most add thousands of dollars the same week they buy the car just for aftermarket parts. I have already had heard calls for parts for the Camaro and it is not even on sale yet. The price difference we are talking is what many are just dropping on a good set of wheels and tires. If you can't afford the $3500 difference then you really should not be buying one of these cars anyways. Cutting it that close is not the way to own a car. If they can't afford that odds are they are not going to buy the Mustang anyways and the Charger either. Cross shopping here is not something you see often as most people remain loyal and will pay the small difference to remain loyal. This is about value and what you get for the money. GM will market this and they have a car compelling enough to pull it off. Also if there are any slow sales the special option package discount will be slipped in. I really don't think GM will a have any issue selling a Camaro in the next few years. I never said a negative word toward the camaro, and the cramped back seat was a figure of speech. I had no issue with what you said. Just observations of owners that are in this class. You are good!

I have no beef with the Mustang turbo. I wish GM had matched the HP. But to condemn the Camaro for the things you listed before you have seen one let alone been in one is as short sighted as condemning a Mustang Turbo and praising a Camaro Turbo. The back seat is not great in any of these cars if you are honest and to be even more honest it is not a priority. If it is the customer is buying a sedan anyways. Now if any of them were a sedan with a cramped back seat then you would have a legitimate issue. Again if you are honest when you look at the cars sold by all three makers most are at least optioned to the same degree. Very few base models are built let alone sold. The fact is what most customers are getting are similar in price and equipment regardless of what the base model offers. The fact is we sell parts to these guys that buy these cars and most add thousands of dollars the same week they buy the car just for aftermarket parts. I have already had heard calls for parts for the Camaro and it is not even on sale yet. The price difference we are talking is what many are just dropping on a good set of wheels and tires. If you can't afford the $3500 difference then you really should not be buying one of these cars anyways. Cutting it that close is not the way to own a car. If they can't afford that odds are they are not going to buy the Mustang anyways and the Charger either. Cross shopping here is not something you see often as most people remain loyal and will pay the small difference to remain loyal. This is about value and what you get for the money. GM will market this and they have a car compelling enough to pull it off. Also if there are any slow sales the special option package discount will be slipped in. I really don't think GM will a have any issue selling a Camaro in the next few years.

You could buy a car that handles and ran as well back in 2002 but it generally had no interior, a cage and open exhaust. You could not drive it in the rain as there was no tread, it had no AC and the engine was to temperamental that it was a paint to drive. You can add this to the list above. Don't also forget the window lifts that were well known to fail. What also many forget is that even on the Turbo 4 you should be able to have it tuned for less than $1000 and add much more power with out even opening up the engine. I know the LNF was good to 400 HP before GM said to upgrade the rods and pistons. Most other parts will go over 500 HP with no issue. As for bundles. Well GM could go back to the old way and build them by the option but that would only add to the price. Bundling is a way that they can make more money but also hold the cost down for the consumer. It sounds odd but if you make all the cars with a specific minimum of options the cost of many of these options get spread out over all the cars and not just a few. This in turn lets GM buy parts in volume cheaper and offer the parts at a lower cost to the customer. Most people want the better value. Lets face the reality here few have any interest in a gutted or low option car anymore. If you are racing you buy a crashed one or a body in white. Too many dealers have in the past gotten stuck with the orphan car with few options they have a hard time unloading even below cost. So they have no interest either. Even if you did discontent a car out and sell it with few options you would be surprised how little it would effect price. I too wish cars were cheaper. The fact is this car offers much more for the money than the price went up. On the other hand you have cars like a Sonic RS that are near $25K loaded and just not worth the price. Even a stripped base model is too expensive for what you get. There are no $9,999 Cavaliers or S10's offered anymore. Thought there is a Snyder now offered that can be had for $6995 if you are ok with no air bag along with Chinese quality and only 3 wheels. Saw a red one last week and still can't get the image of Clarkson in a Robin Reliant out of my mind.

Ok now that the performance numbers are out anyone want to still complain about the increase in price? These numbers are looking pretty good. I will be interested if the braking number improve in the review testing. They are not bad but not as good as I expected.

The case here of the present car makes it like a glass half full or half empty. Just depends on how you want to look at it. Either way there is much to improve here as GM should be in the top three with this car and in this segment. They did that in the 08 gen. This car has fallen short but for good reasons as it was a still born model. GM had to use what they had as they could not string the older car any longer but were not ready with the new platform. It did it's job to buy time and not damage the brand. You are not going to hit it out of the park with every model. Also the Fusion did more damage here as Ford had crap in the past Fusion and pretty much made a better Malibu. Here is how this one will play out. The first year will be the year of discovery by the unwashed public. Remember most people this car is targeted at have no idea it is coming as they are not enthusiast. Once they hit the road people will see them and start to investigate. We should see it take off in the second half of the year. The second year will build even more sales and by the third it should be in third place in sales and not selling at great discounts. We should see a similar progression with the Cruze. GM needs to market these cars well as they really finally have something worth marketing here that can really make an impact. People appear ready to trust GM again as we have seen it in the Cruze and Nox. The entrenched two MFG have been strong but have shown some weakness of late in quality and lack of advancement. They have played it safe. Pricing will help as they are too expensive and if the economy remains stagnate people will search for ways to save on a car payment. The design is compelling and much nicer than the Honda and Toyota. The MPG is going to be good. The quality and refinement will be better this time than any other they have offered. This should do well in this segment. Also it will sell for a higher exchange rate than the present car and less incentives. The Hybrid appears to be something special on paper. Price and just how well it works will determine just how well it does in sales. The fact is there is still a lot on this car we still do not know. The little details and features have not really be represented to the public yet and many were not listed on the configuration sites. Heck we have not even gotten the final HP and Torque yet and I expect like GM does it will increase around 5 HP and a few FT LBS. With all the new product the show rooms should be busy this year. The Camaro alone will draw many in and help introduce people to the Cruze and Malibu. This is what happened in the 80's when Pontiac had the new Trans Am and Fiero in the show rooms back in 83-84. It lead to a lot of Grand Am sales. Pontiac gave the other two cars credit for the increase in sales of the Grand Am.

I'm sorry, are you really trying to insult me because of my profession?? Well so you are not the wash boy? To be honest I really did not know what you did nor really care. You have taken your shots too and I just return in kind. If I wanted to hurt your feeling I would have said something bad about your mother. I normally keep things on the respectful level till the other person stops being respectful in kind. I can disagree and get along with most people but when they start like you have here I really don't care anymore. First thing you need to do is not judge the new car with the past. The past has many issue that do not pertain to the new car. H second Honda and Toyota have a happy fan base and it will only take time and better product to over come that. Better product we have coming and time will just take that time. As for under powered? Till you drive the car you had better not pass judgment on what you have no clue of. You think you can really notice 7 FT LBS? This is what you feel and what moves the car from a stop not as much HP. You mechanical aptitude side does correlate with a Salesman. The truth is todays Malibu that is coming will be as good as any car in the segment. Changing minds takes time and not much anyone can do with that. While you may not be able to sell a Malibu many people must be able as there are a ton of them on the road. With the way you think I can see why you can't sell one. Judgmental Pessimism of a product does not lend to being a good salesman of a product. That's BS. All I said was that I didn't like how the car went backwards on power. And then you, and an Admin of all people jumped all on my $h! for no reason. Maybe you should go back and read this thread over, guy. YOU started with the insults and the disrespect. Heaven forbid someone have an opinion that you disagree with concerning a GM product. It's not like I said the car was going to be a POS or anything. I said I wished they didn't lower the power, and I thought it'd feel weak. If you have a problem with fine, you're entitled to your own thoughts on the matter. But either state as much in a respectful manner or just move along. As for my mechanical aptitude, I was an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, cars are a piece of cake. If you don't understand how easily (less!) peak torque being available 2K rpm earlier can easily be outweighed by losing 36hp, then I really don't know what to tell you. Malibus aren't bought as in-town commuters. They're bought as family cars. Meaning long drives over the open road should be taken into account. This thing will struggle at that task, especially with multiple occupants. That's just my opinion. If you don't like it, great. I think just about all the 4 cylinder offerings in this class aren't sufficient for such a task, but some are clearly more endowed than others. If, IF, it truly loses 300hp and it makes up the difference, awesome. I STILL think it would have been even BETTER, if they dropped weight, AND kept power levels closer to what they already have. GM needs to stop catching up to the rest of the class, and make a vehicle that clearly pushes beyond it. They did it with the Colorado. Imo, they did it with the first Cruze. But this car is not as impressive as it could have been from a powertrain perspective. As for your continued low shots at my profession, I'll feel you in on a little tidbit. The best sales people can mask their feelings toward a product and individual and focus on the sale. It's 101. I absolutely hate the Equinox and sell boat loads of them. That's how sales works. What I look for in a car is irrelevant to a buyer. And for the record, I quite like the current Malibu. But when measured against the class leaders in the areas that matter most to buyers, the car is at a disadvantage. That much is established fact at this point. As for your post I have seen what you have done here before and was not surprised with what you have done with me. I really don't take it personal and we will leave it like that. If Admin contacted you other must perceive your post different from you. Semantics of the words often can mean different things to other people but comments that you don't know $h! normally is worded in a better way. As for what you did in the past I appreciate your service but that does not always translate to the automotive sector as much. I know some great jet mechanics but they really do not understand the workings of Variable Timing on a Cam. Heck I have had to explain to SAE Cert Mechanics that they have to clearance blocks to do a stroker engine. Everyone has their specialty and weakness nothing wrong with that. Enough personal crap. Here is the deal. Yes the car will lose 300 Pounds. The performance index is going to be about the same as it was if not better. GM will not make a slower or less performing car but it will get better MPG. As for the open road around town is where the power is more noticeable in stop and go traffic. On the open road the car is moving at a steady rate and really needs little power to keep it in motion. The turbo will help in higher altitudes as it will adjust to the needs etc. Power is missed in town when you are shooting for gaps in traffic and when you are 0-40 MPH. If you let them bring this out you will note the performance metrics will show this car will be as good as anything in class performance wise. You do understand that none of the cars in this class are able to meet the coming MPG CAFE standards. The cutting of weight and smaller engines while keeping the same performance will be done on all the models in this segment. The advancement of the Hybrid systems will become even more common. The coming system here sounds good but we really have not seen enough to praise or condemn it yet. By the way the Colorado kept the same engine but gained weight. Cutting power could not be done. The coming Cruze was already using the smaller engines. The Malibu still offers the 2.0 if you want it and is more than enough power to make nearly anyone happy. Note the power in that engine will make it run numbers better than a stock 1968 SS Chevelle. As for your profession there are good and bad sales people out there. Too often the turn over leaves many dealers hurting but too often the way they treat the staff it is their own fault. It is not just auto sales but sales in general that too often brings the worst out of some folks for survival. I don't know you and I can not judge you so I will not. As for what you think that is fine but get used to the fact that others here feel different. If you want to prove your point give us facts or at least info that backs up your point. Posting WTF and you don't know SH*T does not prove your point. Build a case with evidence to prove your point. You do that and there is no argument. But I feel and I think builds nothing and it is all just personal preference at this point. I am not the first person you have clashed with here and at the rate it has gone I will not be the last. Structured arguments and substantiated info goes much better in a debate. We do that here often and most of us get along fine. We may not agree but we still get along. At this point I have presented my side and am willing to let the first road test prove me right or wrong on the performance and sales to prove me right or wrong on the acceptance. A new car like this takes 2-3 years to show if it was a success and there is no argument in the end. The numbers will show how things went. Here is my first post- "I predict this car is still going to continue with poor sales. I really like the styling. I don't like how they are lowering power levels, though." Here is my second- I'm sorry, I still think this thing is going to feel pokey. I think anything under 180hp is too little for this class. Even with the weight loss, I can see this thing feeling labored, especially with 2-3 passengers and cargo. Heck, you can get more powerful engines in the Mazda 3 and Focus. As for the sales, I think the sales will increase very little, if at all. GM refuses to get aggressive on leasing programs, and coupled with ever increasing CUV market share, it sets the stage for mediocre sales. I can also all but guarantee there will be issues at launch with availability of certain trims, options, etc. That said, I'm still very much looking forward to seeing one in person and driving one. Here is yours- Drew it is clear he has no clue or even has driven one of the Eco DI Turbo engines as it has more low end Torque than some recent V8 models and a torque curve flatter than the Bonneville. It is post like this that lose credibility in the argument and he finishes himself off. So you can clearly see where I not only posted anything insulting until YOU did, I also did not even unduly criticize the car. In fact, I gave it compliments in my posts, and criticized others in the same class in them, as well. As for the rest of your post, I've always done most of my maintenance on my cars. They're not hard. If a mechanic doesn't understand variable valve timing, he needs to find another job. But regardless, my mechanical ability has no bearing on my posts. I haven't had trouble with anyone hear who has approached conversation in a level-headed and respectful manner. If you and Drew would do so, I wouldn't have had issues with you, either. I'm one of the least biased, open-minded, and experienced posters here and at MT, and you have to really get personal or just be an ignorant fanboy for me to take issue. And even then, so long as double standards aren't being used or others' reasonable opinions aren't attacked, I'll still let it ride. I don't have to give out facts when stating my opinion. That's what DEFINES an opinion. I'm sorry you seem to have a different definition of the term, and when it is acceptable to use. Just get over it already. Stop getting so bent out of shape over someone else's thoughts on a car you don't even own or had a hand in building. Holy crap. All my post are there unedited and they are what they are. I have nothing to hide. Your post speak for themselves. If you want to debate about the car I will be glad to but don't get mad if I do not agree. You left out modest too from this line. "I'm one of the least biased, open-minded, and experienced posters here and at MT, and you have to really get personal or just be an ignorant fanboy for me to take issue." LOL! I have some pretty thick skin. How we get along is up to you.

I'm sorry, are you really trying to insult me because of my profession?? Well so you are not the wash boy? To be honest I really did not know what you did nor really care. You have taken your shots too and I just return in kind. If I wanted to hurt your feeling I would have said something bad about your mother. I normally keep things on the respectful level till the other person stops being respectful in kind. I can disagree and get along with most people but when they start like you have here I really don't care anymore. First thing you need to do is not judge the new car with the past. The past has many issue that do not pertain to the new car. H second Honda and Toyota have a happy fan base and it will only take time and better product to over come that. Better product we have coming and time will just take that time. As for under powered? Till you drive the car you had better not pass judgment on what you have no clue of. You think you can really notice 7 FT LBS? This is what you feel and what moves the car from a stop not as much HP. You mechanical aptitude side does correlate with a Salesman. The truth is todays Malibu that is coming will be as good as any car in the segment. Changing minds takes time and not much anyone can do with that. While you may not be able to sell a Malibu many people must be able as there are a ton of them on the road. With the way you think I can see why you can't sell one. Judgmental Pessimism of a product does not lend to being a good salesman of a product. That's BS. All I said was that I didn't like how the car went backwards on power. And then you, and an Admin of all people jumped all on my $h! for no reason. Maybe you should go back and read this thread over, guy. YOU started with the insults and the disrespect. Heaven forbid someone have an opinion that you disagree with concerning a GM product. It's not like I said the car was going to be a POS or anything. I said I wished they didn't lower the power, and I thought it'd feel weak. If you have a problem with fine, you're entitled to your own thoughts on the matter. But either state as much in a respectful manner or just move along. As for my mechanical aptitude, I was an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, cars are a piece of cake. If you don't understand how easily (less!) peak torque being available 2K rpm earlier can easily be outweighed by losing 36hp, then I really don't know what to tell you. Malibus aren't bought as in-town commuters. They're bought as family cars. Meaning long drives over the open road should be taken into account. This thing will struggle at that task, especially with multiple occupants. That's just my opinion. If you don't like it, great. I think just about all the 4 cylinder offerings in this class aren't sufficient for such a task, but some are clearly more endowed than others. If, IF, it truly loses 300hp and it makes up the difference, awesome. I STILL think it would have been even BETTER, if they dropped weight, AND kept power levels closer to what they already have. GM needs to stop catching up to the rest of the class, and make a vehicle that clearly pushes beyond it. They did it with the Colorado. Imo, they did it with the first Cruze. But this car is not as impressive as it could have been from a powertrain perspective. As for your continued low shots at my profession, I'll feel you in on a little tidbit. The best sales people can mask their feelings toward a product and individual and focus on the sale. It's 101. I absolutely hate the Equinox and sell boat loads of them. That's how sales works. What I look for in a car is irrelevant to a buyer. And for the record, I quite like the current Malibu. But when measured against the class leaders in the areas that matter most to buyers, the car is at a disadvantage. That much is established fact at this point. As for your post I have seen what you have done here before and was not surprised with what you have done with me. I really don't take it personal and we will leave it like that. If Admin contacted you other must perceive your post different from you. Semantics of the words often can mean different things to other people but comments that you don't know $h! normally is worded in a better way. As for what you did in the past I appreciate your service but that does not always translate to the automotive sector as much. I know some great jet mechanics but they really do not understand the workings of Variable Timing on a Cam. Heck I have had to explain to SAE Cert Mechanics that they have to clearance blocks to do a stroker engine. Everyone has their specialty and weakness nothing wrong with that. Enough personal crap. Here is the deal. Yes the car will lose 300 Pounds. The performance index is going to be about the same as it was if not better. GM will not make a slower or less performing car but it will get better MPG. As for the open road around town is where the power is more noticeable in stop and go traffic. On the open road the car is moving at a steady rate and really needs little power to keep it in motion. The turbo will help in higher altitudes as it will adjust to the needs etc. Power is missed in town when you are shooting for gaps in traffic and when you are 0-40 MPH. If you let them bring this out you will note the performance metrics will show this car will be as good as anything in class performance wise. You do understand that none of the cars in this class are able to meet the coming MPG CAFE standards. The cutting of weight and smaller engines while keeping the same performance will be done on all the models in this segment. The advancement of the Hybrid systems will become even more common. The coming system here sounds good but we really have not seen enough to praise or condemn it yet. By the way the Colorado kept the same engine but gained weight. Cutting power could not be done. The coming Cruze was already using the smaller engines. The Malibu still offers the 2.0 if you want it and is more than enough power to make nearly anyone happy. Note the power in that engine will make it run numbers better than a stock 1968 SS Chevelle. As for your profession there are good and bad sales people out there. Too often the turn over leaves many dealers hurting but too often the way they treat the staff it is their own fault. It is not just auto sales but sales in general that too often brings the worst out of some folks for survival. I don't know you and I can not judge you so I will not. As for what you think that is fine but get used to the fact that others here feel different. If you want to prove your point give us facts or at least info that backs up your point. Posting WTF and you don't know SH*T does not prove your point. Build a case with evidence to prove your point. You do that and there is no argument. But I feel and I think builds nothing and it is all just personal preference at this point. I am not the first person you have clashed with here and at the rate it has gone I will not be the last. Structured arguments and substantiated info goes much better in a debate. We do that here often and most of us get along fine. We may not agree but we still get along. At this point I have presented my side and am willing to let the first road test prove me right or wrong on the performance and sales to prove me right or wrong on the acceptance. A new car like this takes 2-3 years to show if it was a success and there is no argument in the end. The numbers will show how things went.

What you are also not considering is what the present car was. I in no way have ever said the present car was the best in class or perfect. I really like the 08 model better. Now with that cleared. The present model was in the works before the bail out. It came at a time GM did not have the time or money to complete the job and had to use what they had. They rushed the car to market because they knew the Fusion was coming and at least if they were first they would get some attention. GM knew what they wanted and needed but knew it would take time to get it as they needed the new platform. Well here it is. The present car does have many short comings but it is far from a total failure. Id did the job they needed as they needed to buy time and that is what it did. You have to keep in context the conditions and reasons what was done here. Sometimes companies have to work with the cards they are dealt and this one was just that. They were stuck with a aging car in class and could not wait for what they needed as funding and man power was tied up in other programs like Alpha and trucks. They used the platform they had and it got them through. While it did not advance the brand it did not harm it much either. Chrysler is seeing the same results with he 200 as it is not the car they need as it falls short but it is doing better than they have been doing. At lest with GM they appear to have it right this time and we should see a large improvement in all areas. Again you have to look big picture not just in the showroom to sort some of this out.

The future is all about doing more with less. To be honest it is amazing what some of these little engines can do. DI loves Turbocharging and the fact the MFGs. have stepped up to do these right this time has fixed much of the durability issues along with synthetic oils. If we want cars of sizes larger than a Spark we will have to continue to made the engines smaller and car lighter. Contrary to popular belief you can not carry the V8 on forever as there are only so many cylinders you can cut out. The combination of lower torque range in the turbo engine along with the new transmissions and gearing have made come very compelling combinations. Today we have a Camaro that will run 14 flat on only 275 HP and 4 cylinders. Most SS models in the past in stock form would struggle to meet this number. We remember the Zl1 and LS6 but the fact is most performance cars were 14 second cars back then. The only thing that sucks on these small engines is they are difficult to make a good sound with. Few have a good sound with 4 and only a few V6 models sound right too. 60 Degree engines do have a decent sound but the 90's degrees just never got it done sound wise. The bottom line is these small engines are here and we just have to learn to live with them. The MFG are doing a good job packing them with lighter platforms and proper suspensions and drive lines to take advantage of their strengths and dampen their weaknesses. Note too as with mine the EPA numbers are easily beaten even driving it like I stole it. I noted this also on other Eco turbo cars as the numbers are normally surpassed. Not sure if that will be the case here but it might be something to watch for. The torque is what catches so many people by surprise as they have no concept of high torque Many of these engines make more torque than HP and that is not what most people are used to. They also do not understand torque is what you feel in an engine not so much the HP.

Sorry but it is already proven by more than one company the long warranties mean little. Most of these cars will go 100K miles and 10 years with no issues other than a TPM in a wheel or regular use items like brakes etc. Now if you have a car like Chrysler who is well known for many issues in the first couple years and suspect transmissions the first 50K miles and lower prices are the only way to attract people to take a chance. GM cars have always made good second hand cars as they generally do not need things like timing belts or have transmission or engine issues. Many will go on and on. Just look around how many Grand Am's even in the rust belt are still on the road vs. old Honda's that needed more maintenance than the car was worth. My Co worker drive a long way daily and just turned 300K on his Grand Am. There paint is even still pretty good.

I'm sorry, are you really trying to insult me because of my profession?? Well so you are not the wash boy? To be honest I really did not know what you did nor really care. You have taken your shots too and I just return in kind. If I wanted to hurt your feeling I would have said something bad about your mother. I normally keep things on the respectful level till the other person stops being respectful in kind. I can disagree and get along with most people but when they start like you have here I really don't care anymore. First thing you need to do is not judge the new car with the past. The past has many issue that do not pertain to the new car. H second Honda and Toyota have a happy fan base and it will only take time and better product to over come that. Better product we have coming and time will just take that time. As for under powered? Till you drive the car you had better not pass judgment on what you have no clue of. You think you can really notice 7 FT LBS? This is what you feel and what moves the car from a stop not as much HP. You mechanical aptitude side does correlate with a Salesman. The truth is todays Malibu that is coming will be as good as any car in the segment. Changing minds takes time and not much anyone can do with that. While you may not be able to sell a Malibu many people must be able as there are a ton of them on the road. With the way you think I can see why you can't sell one. Judgmental Pessimism of a product does not lend to being a good salesman of a product.

Dingo I note in most of your comments it is "I Feel". This is very subjective and not really a representative of what the real world is "Feeling". Also it does not represent the real numbers either. Lets just let the lightest car in the segment get market and just see how it pans out. In this segment MPG is more important to most over 0-60 times. Most of these people it is just about getting there and not image or performance. Hence not the most exciting segment in the market. From what I have found the final numbers are still not posted as they are estimated and normally add around 5 more HP and some more torque. As it is now the 2.5 was 196HP @ 6300 RPM 191 FT LBS @ 4400RPM The 1.5 is estimated at 160HP and 184 FT LBS. noting that most DI Turbo engines bring the torque in at much lower than 4400 RPM, Mine has 315 FT LBS at 2000 RPM and holds it to 5300 RPM. Add in the drop of 300 HP on top of these numbers I do not expect a M series car but one as good if not a little better than what we had with more MPG. No matter how you want to spin this it will not be a step back. With the estimated number we are only down 7 FT LBS and it may come in much lower than the present 2.5. The final number may even erase this. No I don't have all the answers but with the numbers we have and what GM normally does I can see them all working in the right direction. But till the final product is rolled out we will have to wait for those answers.

It has already been show warranties mean little. The only way to win this game is to continue to build better cars with better reliability and earn the image. There is no short cut or bribe to a solid image. On new cars you can get away with this parlor trick but used cars not so much as they will just buy the better car if quality is called into question. The customer wants no warranty issues not just covered warranty issues. Most cars today can make it to 12 years with out major issues and by then in many areas the rust starts and finishes them off before the mechanicals.

You wanna talk about ME being clueless and you go make such a pathetically biased fanboy post??? Please. The Malibu sells near the bottom of the barrel of the current midsize market for very, very good reason. A cheap, chintzy interior, small back seat, bland design, poor content for the price, and less than class-leading reliability and value all conspire against it. Resale value? That's a good one. They have atrocious residual. My dealer can't hardly give Malibus away, and we're squarely in pro-Domestic America. No fan boy comments here troll. the Malibu as we have now is a left over design of old GM that was just put in to buy time. It is not the class leader but it is far from the worst car in class. too. Outside of the Honda and Toyota there are no real winners in resale here as so many cars are sold in this segment. Fleet sales have hurt the GM car and I expect that we will see the new car restricted from these sales as they have many of their other new cars. As for not being able to sell a Malibu you do realize how many there are out there. It sounds more like a sales man issue to me. You may not be in sales as you can't sell this pathetic story line very well. hmmm. I get it you wash cars that is how you get to drive so many cars? Pay attention and GM will sell the new car and keep the old one for fleets. This will help on resale. Also it is supply and demand. Time will tell if GM can keep demand up on these as they sell more and more of them. Many people are buying the Honda and Toyota too because they can't afford the new ones since they are higher priced. Even with a hit it will take time to earn the reputation in this segment. Even Ford with the Fusion is still working on this and they too have a very good car. These things do not happen over night.

It's like I've been arguing in the thread about pushrods. It's all about low end torque. This new 1.5T has as much torque at 2,000 rpm as the current 2.5 produces at 4,400 rpm. As a base engine, it will do fine. Drew it is clear he has no clue or even has driven one of the Eco DI Turbo engines as it has more low end Torque than some recent V8 models and a torque curve flatter than the Bonneville. It is post like this that lose credibility in the argument and he finishes himself off. Two things- 1)I'd like to know what your response is going to be when the car comes out and reviewers say it feels underpowered. 2)Hyper, I work in the car business. I've driven and forgotten about more cars than yo can imagine. I OWNED a turbocharged car for years. Here's a news flash for you- turbo, NA, pushrod, OHC, an engine that's underpowered is underpowered. End of discussion. It's clear YOU don't know WTF you're talking about. Frisk What are you going to say if they come back with that this is a compelling car and a top choice in the segment? As for you working in the industry what are you a car salesman? I work in the performance industry and understand there is more to car than just saying underpowered. You have to use all the factors like mass gearing and torque to understand just how a car feels. HP alone is not a true measure of how a car feels or even performs. Even in this class what is considered adequate performance is not on the same scale as say a Camaro. Added Torque at the low end and cutting of mass can make a very good feeling and performing package here. Lets let them put it out there and see just what we get. GM has made few mistakes here of late in the performance department. I would be shocked if the new engine did not run as good or if not better than the 2.5. News flash you do not have all the answers here. Note it is clear to more than me.

The fact is most people are not really wanting to stand out. They want a car they can afford. They want a car that is reliable. They want a car with many features that is still affordable and a good value. They want it to get good MPG. They want power but not at the expense of MPG. They want resale. They want safe. They want it to not be hideous but they do not care if it looks like it came from an Italian design house. Just look at the formula Honda and Toyota has used for years and you will see non offensive boring cars that are generally are well optioned at prices that most can afford. They normally have to just do tires and brakes along with oil changes in the first 100K miles. They are safe if it crashes and they can trade it for a decent price once it is time. The Malibu has hit on all these wants and has added a little styling to stand out from the others. They are going more aggressive on price and that means a lot here. Most people can care less with HID lights if they can lower their payment. While GM may not show the resale yet they can challenge Honda and Toyota on price as they are higher and most people already have been turning to Hyundai and Kia to save money. Both of these brands cut corners to save money. GM may have cut a HID but over all they will still offer a car that will go 300K miles with minimal care. Drive up demand the trade in will also come up. They have had to pick and choose here where they want to compete and they have put together a very compelling package. This car will sell north of 200K units with in the next three years. As trust is earned sales will also come. We saw this in the Nox where sales were modest the first year and since then the sales have gone up each and every year. Last year they were well over 200K units on a vehicle in the same price range. I fear the one vehicle to hurt the Malibu the most may be the Nox. Same price segment and the increase popularity of the CUV are a threat to the mid size sedan. The Cruze, Malibu and Nox will be a good thing for GM over the next 5 years. They will make some noise here.

Get real check the numbers of AWD cars sold. Ford with the Fusion sell only around 10K-12K AWD cars at best a year. Compared to the number on FWD it is a drop in the bucket and marginal if it is even bring in the cost of development. It also is not close to a Haldex system. Most other models in class do not offer it and there are reasons in the value class they don't. GM does offer the system in the Buick line and it can be leveraged out with Opel and even now Holden so it is not like they have ignored the market. Most people in this class if they are wanting AWD are wanting a CUV and here is where GM sells over 300,000 units with just less than half of them in the Nox and Terrain being AWD. Here you can make back your investment. Ever price a Fusion AWD. Most are loaded models and the sticker goes over $42,000. You think many people will pay over $42K for a Malibu when a Audi or even a ATS Turo AWD is not all that much more? I head the same complaint on my HHR SS from people on the forum. We want AWD. I asked OK you already have a sticker of $28K in 2008 and would you be willing to pay over $31,000 for an HHR? At that time over $30K there were some very good options out there like a G8 GT etc. When you spew these options out consider the cost of development and the numbers of units sold and you will see it is not all that easy. Yes Subaru does it but most of their system interchange with their line so they can leverage it out.

The truth is the 08 is where the new GM started. The 08 was the first car that fully involved Bob Lutz and he took the car from the 07-08 Classic to the next level and took out much of the old culture. This is the car he asked the sheet metal engineer if he could get the same body gaps as a Hyundai or better. He said yes but just was never told to do it because the old culture said only do as you are told. He said just do it and never wait to be told. The only thing that held the 08 back was the lack of money and even then Lutz got as much as he could to show what they could do.

It's like I've been arguing in the thread about pushrods. It's all about low end torque. This new 1.5T has as much torque at 2,000 rpm as the current 2.5 produces at 4,400 rpm. As a base engine, it will do fine. Drew it is clear he has no clue or even has driven one of the Eco DI Turbo engines as it has more low end Torque than some recent V8 models and a torque curve flatter than the Bonneville. It is post like this that lose credibility in the argument and he finishes himself off.

I own a 2LT 2008 V6 and it is still a great car. Today they are very popular on the used car market and sold enough to be around for hundreds of thousands of miles. The 08 really changed the tone for Malibu and the present model is not bad considering it was a carry over from the bail out. The need to use the short platform hurt the back seat room but that will soon be corrected. It was a case GM had to use what they had and had little time to do it. But they knew what they had coming here so it was not a panic situation. Either way it did not harm even if it was not the leading car in the segment and it still made money.

442 the 78 and 80's models are still very popular. The rest of them back to 73 are pretty much forgotten. The later models were so plain most forget them and the 73-77 models rusted out like most 70's cars and with the lack of resto parts are mostly forgotten. Most people today remember the 60's- 72 models. These cars still are in great numbers and are still of great value. Even the non SS models trade for high prices today. The folks who have a bug in their shorts really just have no concept that the old name is not damaged nor it is all that easy to start over with a new name. As we have seen so often the car makes the name not the name makes the car. Make the car compelling in design, value and quality and it will sell. If they can bring the Hyundai Sonata from what it was in 1987 to what it is today any name could be redeemed. The Malibu was never damaged as much as the original Hyundai nor was Chevy. Watch as this car becomes a class leader and a profit leader in this segment.