hyperv6

Nonsense...500 miles at Daytona are custom built race cars. These are stock street cars. Oh my God you are turning into one of those Musk Zealots. LOL! They do race GT cars that are nearly stock there at the 24 hours. The fact is EV are making progress and do some things very well but they still have other things they need to work on and it will take time and more investment. Just the way it is. I would not say good bye to ICE yet and I would not dismiss EV all together. This is going to be a market of many options so enjoy them all. It is sad in the single seat racers they have to change cars half way to run a full race. When they get to the point they can run a full race with one car then we will call that progress. I just loved how that one magazine took a Model T and a Tesla and the T just about beat the Tesla to NYC even on back roads. That is a sign of more work to do. I have nothing against EV cars aspect for some of the wack jobs that like to declare them perfect. That discredits them and hurts the EV movement more than helps. That is like me claiming my Fiero is as good as a Ferrari. The truth is it is best to be honest and not try to make things into what they are not at least to this point.

Well the Hummer underpinnings were Chevy trucks accept for the H1. I would just give the GMC a more edge for off road and make it a little more tough edged like Hummer was. Bob Lutz said one of his greatest regrets was not to make Hummer a GMC model vs. the division it became. He said it would have been much more flexible and may have saved the line compared to shutting down a whole division. The H2 really was based on a Tahoe and the H3 was based on the Trailblazer. I would like to see GMC do a better Wrangler like Chevy did a better PT Cruiser with the HHR. I also would love to see them do a larger model and even a possible rock crawling buggy that could be street driven daily. Put a small Eco in it and make it interesting like some of these new cars that are out side the box like the Cross Bow or other niche models. Just look at the guys still fixing up cut down Sidekicks and Trackers yet today.

Garlits was working to run 200 MPH in a EV rail. I think it got side tracked with his age. He is just not as sharp as he once was at 200 MPH. They could get the Greek Chris Karamesines as he is still running 320 MPH and he and Don are still friends. I saw Chis run well over 300 just last summer. He is only in his mid 80's and still sharp.

I would not want a Hummer but a new modern GMC version that is a good cross of GMC styling but a Hummer like quality. In other words knock off things like the flat windshield.

But it is different than most anything on the road and that is what sells the Wrangler and so my PT Cruisers etc. This is one area most automakers miss as it can be a risk but to be different often can garner many sales. GM learned that with Hummer but has yet failed to repeat it with say GMC. There is money in odd different and something strange at times. It works some times and it fails some times like the Pacer and Aztek but if you can or are willing to add that odd or retro industrial design often it will pay off. Hell we even see it yet in the Mini as sales have been good for them globally. It is not a right or wrong deal as much as some folks want to stand out in the crowd just as someone who pierces and tattoos their face and colors their hair orange. Not something i feel I need to do but other have a thing for it. If I can make money at it I would dye their air and punch holes in them for a large sums. Just my way of saying even if the Wrangler is not my taste more power to them. Not everyone wants to have to hit the locate button to see which SUV is theirs in the parking lot. This is not something I would want Cadillac to do but I feel GMC could take on a more industrial like Hummer look and not take too much risk. They have a start but I would like to see them do a Wrangler like vehicle that Chevy will not have.

Now lets see them do 500 miles at Daytona? That is in 3 hours. Then I will be impressed. Hell even a Volt could be tuned to do much faster times if you wanted it to. These are electric motors nothing new. I spun the tires on the GM power cell car down the street once too. [Yes I was permitted when I asked to do it} This is just Torque.

Well the real fact is there is proof on both sides that Global Warming exist and does not exist and neither side can prove it to be one way or the other. In global terms they are only looking at a little over 100 years of true recorded data. Anything older was mostly done by ship logs over several hundred years. Anything else is estimates only done by means not fully creditable. So if both sides were honest they would admit nothing is proven. Also on one side you have corporations that are looking not wanting to have to deal with many new regulations and more expense in MFG. But on the other side you have many scientist that are being paid by the government funds to investigate this. If they find it to be a normal cycle they are out of easy money. If they find GW is real they can make a life's work of this. So this could skew the numbers a bit. One other factor often left out is we are cleaner today globally than we have been in years. The fact is science is also not exact. There is so much we thought to be true and then found out otherwise. How many ice ages did we get told were going to happen but yet nothing. Many of the predictions of the Global Warming people have already not come to pass either. The Variables are such, Lack of true accurate recorded history, The lack to account for things of Nature we do not understand like the earths ability to adapt to changes. Lets face it many things could have wiped man off the earth but yet the earth has adjusted over the years and recovered. One large volcano blast we could be gone. It has happened several times killing millions. Or one meteor hit and the cockroaches take over. The thing that troubles me is if you follow the green money too much of it is being made into an industry at the expense of the citizens. Many times so may of these people have been making millions off of us trading carbon credits or passing laws that net their investments millions and billions of dollars. Then if you speak up they brow bash those who state they do not believe and demonize them avoiding any kind or exchange or debate. When people go for the personal attacks vs. debate I get curious as to what they are hiding. If I have a view I will make a case for it and be willing to debate it. So many on the green side just want to silence those who disagree and just say they are right. The hard fact is there are no hard facts to prove beyond any doubt that this is going to kill us or prove to be just another prediction in a pile of many man made predictions that never proved to be true. Should we still investigate this and should we still work to make better energy? Yes but just be honest about it. With political people involved I know that can be difficult.

It will see a TT V8 DOHC engine like the other Cadillac models will get. I think they are talking 4.2 so it can be used in China and other places with tax on displacement.

Well the tax thing is already being played out now with higher mile per gallon cars. The government is losing taxes on more efficient cars and have already made moves to tax us per the mile. States like Oregon and others have already shown how it could and according to them will be done at some point. This country has been taken over by special interest. While they like to just point at Wall Street few point at all the others fighting for control. The far left has made an industry out of green energy even when nothing is being done. I expect even more abuse with new laws and regulations. Just look at the money being traded on carbon credits. I tire of Oh how our cities are going to go under water and polar bears are stranded on ice flows [not mentioning that Polar Bears are great swimmers so are they really stranded?] While I agree we should work to try to keep things clean I also believe we should do this in well thought out responses and plans. This way we can clean things up. Not hurt our economy and people could make money off of this the right way and not just on forced regulations. Right now the present administration has been using the EPA to reinterpretation laws that were passed with totally different considerations. We saw this with the street cars are not considered illegal to make into race cars if you modify them. They are doing the same with the clean water act to take private farm land and other laws. A regulatory agency is there to enforce the laws not interpenetrate them, The scary part of this is this puts us on a dangerous path as it would disable are due process of constitutional law where laws are passes by congress and senate. I expect the SCOTUS will strike this one down just as the coal executive order but this is just flat wrong for either side to dictate law based on their own interpretations. This is what destroys countries from with in. The really sad thing is people just have little grasp of how our government is to really work anymore. Also they have little clue on just what the people running for office really are. I heard a lady say that this week she has found out just how corrupt Hillary is. Where has she been for the last 25 years? Now she is for Sanders but clearly has no idea what he really is. Same for Trump. He may say a lot of things people like to hear but much of what he says is just to attract media attention. He is a master at controlling the media. But at this point he really has nor firm plans on how he would really do things as many of the things he has said just can not happen even if he wants them to. Yet people are falling all over for him. The rest of them really are not suited for the job and that makes it more difficult to find a true leader. I like the Ohio Governor as he has done a great job here with no scandals but he is coming across so badly he will never gain much traction. At best he may be a VP. Anyways we are in for a rocky road. Until someone is willing to find a way to show global warming is an industry and not as much a problem we are screwed. Why do so may scientist find in favor of global warming. Well follow the money. Keep global warming alive and you will be paid for a life time of work. Prove it wrong and you are out of a job. Not really unbiased when you come down to it. If much of the government funding was cut off to these scientist I expect they would change their views. We just do not have enough weather history to prove anything at this point. The world has been proven that weather can be in cycles. But we can not prove much now. Hell one Volcano blast of any major degree we could be shoveling snow in July. The hears is much more resilient that the human race. It has bounced back from many things much more easily and faster than man has claimed. They told us Mt St Helens would be centuries to return but yet today it is thriving. Chernobyl they claims would be thousands of years before it could be visited. Yet today you can take a tour of the area. Hell Top Gear filmed a show there. The problem is we take for granted we know more than we really do. There is much more man really does not know but we have a lot of theories and centuries of proven wrong theories to work with. Just because a scientist says it is true does not always make it true. You may want to follow up as often they are proven wrong more than proven right with time.

Not in price but in type of prestige and in that direction for quality. It may not match Bentley lock step for price but it could for prestige at a lower but still high price. Keep in mind the Bentley is based on a Porsch SUV and the Porsche is Shared with a Audi SUV and the Audi is Shared with the VW SUV. To be honest they did not hide it all that well as all have even similar shapes. The main difference is they went more car like while Cadillac has remained truck like. Even all the VW models weigh in about the same as the Cadillac well over 5,000 pounds.

Electric infrastructure is growing...and give it another year or two...it will start growing by leaps and bounds... I never thought of that....and yes...these are words of wisdom to live by in this day and age...even if I do live in Montreal Quebec, Canada... A country that is considered "peaceful" by many, even by those terrorists...from time to time...Canada does get mentioned that its a terrorist target...and even if it is in the Frenchie part of Canada, a place that wants to separate from Canada and Montreal...a very cosmopolitan, multi-cultural city... In the 1970s....with all those gas stations around...many motorists were left stranded because there simply was no gasoline available... The last picture looks like its a gas station in the middle of nowhere...imagine running out of gasoline there? These folks that would do harm today would take out as many French Canadians as they could take out as they do not care how progressive and peaceful you claim to be. Seriously the Canadian government needs to tighten things up. You already have had terror attacks and there will be more. Like it or not we are at war. Or at least they are at war with us and more will die unless we take some more harsh measure. Out lax leadership here now has put us in a bind. I pity who ever gets in office next as it will take them 8 years just to fix some of the damage.

Well I would not get carried away with a ton of models. I see them taking this vehicle and competing with the new Bentley in a way but in a Cadillac way. Also I see them driving up the tech and luxury to the top level it can be and then charging for it. As time goes on they will not be able to sell as many of these as they are now but they will continue and charge more for them. The price will limit sales and make it more exclusive whole driving up profits to retain the money they are taking in now. The lost sales will fall to the less expensive and more efficient models that can be sold in larger volumes. I would expect they will take this a little more car like but still based on a SUV. Like the SRX now it may have dropped in volume 3 percent but profits were up 7%.

The resale market will do a lot to determine what cars and powertrain configuration will rule out with EV's. Pure EV's may have an extremely limited resale market, because the range anxiety issue may not be something people are willing to deal with when buying a car second hand. Voltecs are ready for any situation with the range extender. So if you can explain to a potential buyer that it runs fine on gas as it does plugged in, that means future viability and flexibility will be maintained.....you will still have a large base of people that will buy your car. I still believe GM should do what they can to give the volt a much higher plug in range. Pure EV would be nice but the problem is the time and money to convert to a full EV 'refueling' infrastructure will take at least 20 years plus. I am guessing ICE will still be sold on cars for at least that long. ICE cars bought in 2020 will still be looking for fuel stations in 2040. Convenience stores with quick charge won't completely replace gas pumps so there is the whole thing about how convenience stores will remodel to accommodate both gas pumps and charge stations. Even though whack jobs at the federal level (encouraged by whack job enviros) will likely push for elimination of ICE and fuel stations, if someone buys a car in 2027 with an ICE and in 2033 can no longer use it, they will be really pissed off. Then, cash for ICE clunkers will have to buy back ICE vehicles. And we'll have to be guaranteed that our grid can supply every ounce of power that is needed. There will be no course anytime soon that pure EV only can serve the entire market, and because such, it will naturally be a limited market for quite awhile. If that ends up being 40% of the market, that is still a lot of cars no doubt. But it will be proof that it is a limited market, new and more importantly, resale. It is always tough to sell a new car that is bludgeoned with the prospect of a limited resale market, and then values tank, and the spiral begins. Just be sure to read about the value of lease return Nissan Leafs sometime. When those leafs bottom out in value however, they will become popular for people to buy as a cheap 3rd car, that is a neighborhood runaround. I do not see an end to ICE unless government regulations drive them from the market. Contrary to what some folks like to believe in the EV segment we are not going to be out of oil anything soon so we have time to work on these other options. Our first issue may be where will the power come from? Wind and Solar will not replace power plants in total. We are not building nukes and the president has tried to shut down coal that was just stopped for now this week. Increased in demand and increases in cost will be for sure so electric in the end may not be cheaper. My local power supplier is crying for rate hikes now and they need to put in new plants and do some major reconstruction of their systems. They even took their Nuke off line this week. Our power grid is not in all that good shape. Like Jimmy Buffet says There is a Lot to Think About.

The thing with these cars is it will take a little thinking and responsibility to own and drive a car like this In other words you will need to plan ahead and anticipate future trips you may not have planned on. In other word it would take a little intelligence to function as if you make the wrong choice or decision you could put yourself at a deficit that is not easily or quickly remedied. Lets face it these are to a degree a change in lifestyle and you will have to organize and plan things in your life a little differently. It may not be a big deal to some but to others who like to act on a whim and never keep a full tank of gas may struggle. To me I always fill up at half a tank. Two reasons. One that is what I use in a week and two you never know when you may get caught out. I remember the lines for gas on 9/11. Also when the east coast went down with the black out a few years ago there were few places to get gas. I was one of the few with power in Ohio for some odd reason and our one station was open but they ran out of gas as everyone filled up asap. In this day and age you never know if you may need the gas So I try to never get caught short. Not that I am a conspiracy guy but in this day and age one dirty bomb could make you need to bug out fast. I have never been given specifics but my friend in the FBI says to be prepared as you never know.

Well you would charge it every night. Plugging it in like a Cell Phone would be the new routine. Even a cold day would not kill 200 miles in a local commute. Ran is not an issue. Hauling How much are you going to get in a Bolt to start with. Date only skinny women and you are golden. Different routes should be no issue (See plug in every night above] Traffic? If you are not moving the only electric used will be Climate control, LED lights and Radio. All use little power but the heat.

Never underestimate a redneck!

Well The way I see it there is no perfect fit for all in cars today. That is why GM is looking and doing EV, Diesel, Gas, Hybrid and at some point Hydrogen. The Fact is some folks can live with an EV or are willing to deal with the added changes they will have to accommodate to own one. Some still want the electric feature but do not want to deal with charge times range etc that may not fit their life style. Then you have the gas that is doing fine and will not change anyone life as it is already adapted to it. There is no right or wrong here just what ever you want and are willing to work with. The one vehicle that fits most today is a ICE 4 door sedan or ICE CUE. No charging issue and the main reason price. As prices come down more will take an interest in a EV but the Bolt is really the first to make a attempt at that. The you still have other behavior issues to deal with. The foolish people who just do not take the time to fill up and run out of gas as they only put in $5 at a time. It is still a common thing. In a ICE it is a little more forgiving as a Can of fuel solves the issue. As for those who forget or are too lazy to plug in well you are looking at a flatbed. Might be a good Idea to invent a battery pack you can plug in and use if you kill the main battery. Just one large enough to get home or to a plug. Hmm Might be a market there for a reserve battey system? As for battery life some on the list above I have heard and others I have read were 180 degrees opposite? My wife kills her cell phone all the time and I keep mine mostly charged. After 2 years she needs a battery and mine I give to my son and it goes on for 3 more years under his abuse of killing it. Hell I have a Apple Iphone 3 that I keep charged up on a stereo just for the I pod and it will still hold a charge yet today if I remove it. God it is so small LOL. I do know from RC drones and other charging items most say to charge full often. Use them but do not kill them to the last drop of power. Store 50% or a little more but never totally drained. Rapid charging will shorten the life to a degree in most applications. Long charges will prolong battery life. Cold will sap power as power is lost the colder it gets. Heat will damage batteries over time be it use or conditions. A lot of these vary due to the battery as while they may be of the same type they are not all the same. Like I have said the EV segment is slow growth. It will take time to continue to improve them and to get the price down. They will gain market but they will not dominate the market unless some real changes come soon. A breakthrough on a battery to make it better and cheaper could be a game changer. There will be some other great changes. I see the EV cars being like Cell Phones. Everyone will want the newest as it will have all the best advanced features. The used ones will be like my old I Phone 3 and no one will want it. Technology will drive sales here as the latest and greatest will hold the most appeal. The key to the future too is to fine a way to make variations of the EV vehicles that can have larger profiles and weight but not lose range. larger EV CUV models that look like trucks will hold appeal. The Tesla X is more a tall S model so while it is termed a CUV it is still more car like. That is how they keep the CD down. Styling will be a challenge as aero is important in these car as it represents miles in the battery. It will be a trick to restyle these vehicles with out damaging the aero numbers. Often they are designed around the aero number not the other way around. I think the squared off edges on the Volt were claimed to have added a couple miles alone. Climate control systems still need some work to become even more efficient. More charging stations are needed and have to keep pace with the increase in sales. The older people will cling to the ICE but younger people will adapt more easily. Each generation will embrace them more. There is just so much socially once we get more in the world that we will learn and have to change or adapt because of the nature of these vehicles. Human nature brings out all the issues we have not considered and we still have much to learn. Charging educate alone will be an issue. I can see someone getting in to charge rage because some is not unplugging when they are charges in time. How soon before we see a old redneck driving a old Tesla with a Honda Generator tied to the trunk lid running and putting power into the car. Laugh now but I promise you it will happen. I never forgot the guy with the old Ford who had the gas tank fall off with rust that put a 5 gallon can in the front seat and a line out the vent window and into the cowl to the carb. Never under estimate the human. Also the guy who decides to fix his old EV himself and zaps himself to the pearly gates. It will happen. I am shocked I have not seen more people get zapped on the new direct injection injectors. Those have a ton of pressure and a lot of voltage. I figure there will be injuries on them once more fail.

And that is the argument both of you want to represent? In Montreal...where 100 000 dollar cars are not exactly a thing...because well, the money in Quebec...is not existent practically, and what little money some people do make...its taxed like you wouldnt believe...and yet...Tesla Model S are EVERYWHERE...P85Ds even...and only growing... And this is the part of the problem of Reg's argument... 100 000 dollar cars are a niche...a small niche Electric cars are an even smaller niche... Yet...the Model S has managed to outsell equivalent priced cars form Mercedes and BMW and Audi...and Cadillac... You say California? Well, its because California is electric car friendly...so is Quebec... Michigan is HOSTILE towards electric cars...so...I bet you Tesla does not fare well in Michigan... Try again... tesla, to survive, must sell outside its rich boy toy niche and hit a meat market. or they will die. the model 3 was supposed to be here a long time ago. instead they dick around with falcon doors and make a really stupid looking model x. and think that will grow their business. what a bunch of dumb fools. niche car makers die. they could probably sell a couple hundred thousand model 3's but like the stupid Elio, its vaporware and really their ineptitude to capitalize on their market coolness i am afraid will render them into oblivion. might still need 7 years to do it, but clearly they have no plan. A shame because the Model S is a cool kit car. IF they survive it will be due to being bought out or another automaker will make the bulk of the car and the electrics will just get bolted in their and rebadged It was not an argument it was an observation. Know well and clear what the challenges are and it has nothing to so with how many I see. I could give you a laundry list. Hell if Porsche comes out with their sedan it could kill the S model in one single blow. Like Cell phones Ev cars will be seen differently. Most people will want the latest and greatest like the newest Galaxy or I phone. Tesla is not going to update the styling of the S in any major way soon and the whole game can change over night for them. I can add in so many other factors like slow sales in China, not getting new product out on time and not having more product at this point. Also the odds of getting new plants for nearly free like Fremont and the the fact to make them cheaper he may have to go to China on top of all this. Yet there is more even over all this. Can Tesla survive? Yes but the like climbing Everest it is easy till you hit the dead zone and then that is what makes it a game changer. A friend went to climb and that is as far as he got and really was in good shape but his body just could not take the stress.

Tesla around NE OHIO and Columbus Ohio is a rare sight. I see more of the BMW models and I see even more 458 Ferraris here. Even in the dead of winter I see more Bentley GT and Maserati sedans. I saw a Maser with the flat paint out in this weather it must be a pain to clean.

First you need to not think of platforms in today's terms as they are not going to be the same where 6-7 years and they are done. Flexibility lets you not only make more diverse products but also update platforms so they can be adjusted to last longer. This is something we have never had before so we can not look it the same way. Well as for regulations that is going to be tough as not only will different countries and continents not agree but California is in their own little world. A international standard would be great but so would world peace. Then the other issue is you get into Europe with the Green party and other groups that really have little intention to work with MFG. You and I agree on state rights but these folks want to dictate to everyone their own standards even if it hurts the economy.Just look at the Global Environmental agreements that they are pressing on us and how it would really damage our ability to make many products today. While the global standard would be goo achieving it with a reasonable standard for all would be difficult. As for cost savings it is a must today as building and desingning a car is more expensive than ever. Autonomous is a small part but just the cost of testing and design/engineering along with material cost, labor cost etc are higher than ever. This is why volume from China is important as the auto markets have peaked else where. This is why any MFG no in China is at risk going into the future. China knows this and is using this to their advantage. Just look at GM India. China will gain a lot there as many of the cars going there are made in China under the 51% ownership. I hate to say this but China is stealing a good chunk of our auto industry as with the 51% share they are getting a ton of technology and they are taking the most money. The sad thing is they know that everyone has to be a part of their market too. Kind of like selling air. If you want to survive you need to pay the price but in the end you are tethered to a partner that will take advantage of you because they can.

Some of you forget with the flexibility to morph into other vehicles in size shape and class that a more flexible platform can be modified and updated in sections not necessitating a complete overhaul. Cars like the Zeta were developed in a time where hard points were fixed and the inability to completely change the suspension geometry or cut weight were impossible to nearly impossible.. Today they can go in and move hard points and cit weight along with completer changes in suspension geometry and style. The new platforms are movable and change able so in essence you can keep the maid section compartment and plug in all sorts of new things along the way. This way you can keep the same base but update it to the point it really is a new car. By being able to carry over the base part it will save much in time and money developing a part of the car that is still viable. Actually time is money.

I think the doubled life will come from the flexibility of these platforms. While the basic architecture will remain the same sheet metal and even suspensions can be updated and changed to the point people will see nothing but a totally new car. We have to keep in mind that the term platform is much more broad these days wit the increased flexibility we have now. The Camaro and ATS are Alpha based but most of the parts are specific to each model The design is shared but not the parts or dimensions. Platforms are like coats. They can have similar structure but yet be made out of different materials, be of a different style and be of a different weight, but yet they still hold the same basic design. In the old days there just was little to no flexibility to move hard points that permitted a wider use of a car platform. Computer design today has given us this ability.

I think you will see companies change in these ways. Fewer platform and what ones they have will be much more flexible. You will see a wider range in size on them, SUV/CUV and cars will share, even FWD and RWD may share some of the baiscs. Keep in mind platform sharing can share but still use 80% different parts. They will share some basic engineering but can vary in how they are used. Technology updates will come like an Apple Phone. You will see systems in the cars that will advance as the systems do. You may see a new driver interface system every two years. Technology on the inside will be changing and changing often. They have to keep up with the phone operating systems. All companies that plan to remain relevant will need China for sales growth and volume. Those not there will struggle. I expect the Buick/Opel/Holden and Vauxhall division to really be the one to carry the global cost. I like seeing the changes in styling more often. I miss the days where every year was different and often in major ways. In todays market styling will help drive new sales as people want to have the latest and greatest these days as we see in many products from electronics to clothing. I hope they get a global Emissions standard agreed on. The cost savings would be great here. I am sure all will agree but CARB. The split on the platforms will be mid to large and small to mid. Cars and SUV/CUV will share. We already see this on the Gamma. I expect the Tahoe will go unibody at some point. We have already seen how the Camaro and ATS while on the same platform they can be much different cars. This will only be expanded even more. The electronics I hope will be like an App store. You will be able to down load anything from new entertainment to performance and suspension settings. That is something sorely missing now on the GM systems is being able to down load firmware updates on most models. GM will also continue to partner with Honda in other areas and I expect with Ford at least on transmissions. GM has an edge here and sharing the cost on parts not seen by the public will only help them save money. Also working with companies like this they have money and GM has the no how so the sharing here will really benefit GM more in the end. The real challenge will be holding cost down on cars. That is tough as you add more technology, more high priced lighter materials and higher labor cost it will drive prices up faster than the cost of living increases.

Well I should have known not to open the blocked post. It is a click I will never get back.

The only company that could pull off a Minivan is Chrysler but even they will see reduced numbers. Many sales are lost to the CUV segment and if they add more CUV models they will take them from their mini van sales. Mini vans are like the station wagon and their run is on the decline. Some how I bet you will be close on the 15%. I expect a little more but even my estimate of 35% I think is high. The Cruze wagon on many web sites got more positive hits over the hatch. I almost wonder if they are doing the wrong car. The cargo area is so much more useful in the wagon and it does it with out looking like a family truckster.