hyperv6

Not sure on the Studio name that did the 1990 but it would be the same as people that did the 4th Gen F body. I know many of the same names that worked on it were the same names that showed up on the Vette and F body designers. I was at a dinner that John Schinella was a speaker and showed us the slides of the new car when John Middlebrook would not let the 1990 GTP be shown. John S was mad at John M and brought the slides of the coupe and fastback to show us even with GM not wanting them shown. John S said he loved this design and carried it over to the 4Th Gen F body and adapted it to that car. He said it was a design too great to throw away. The red car above was completed in the present state around 1986. It was based on a 1986 Fiero with many upgrades. The design work was started in 1983-84 as this is really the car they wanted in 1984 if GM would have given them the money. I have the Video mentioned and it just was the engineers explaining how they were going to bolt the car together and what changes were going to be needed on the new body mounts. There are so many different reason on why the Fiero died is because there were so many things that caused it. Not just one thing did the car in on it's own. The main factors were Under funded during development by GM Not allowed to use the engines they originally wanted Compromises by Pontiac just to get it built Built in a plant that was way under capacity Built too many cars the first few years to justify the plant. The car GM 80 being canceled leaving no other car to share the plant with. Not sharing the car with Opel or Chevy. Bad press some fair and some not Recalls Hate by those in GM who tried to stope the car before it was built 5 times Chevy being threatened by the loss of Vette sales they could not afford to lose. There are more I can list but I think you get the point there was enough blame to be shared all around. There are many with in GM today that are afraid to peak on this as there are still many hard feeling with in GM today on this and they will not speak publicly on this. When they killed the car Pontiac was in the middle between the UAW they made deals with and GM who opposed much of the program all along. It would make a good book someday and is a classic case to show why GM is it's own worst enemy at times. Imagine wha they could do if they worked all together?

One thing lost in history on the GM 80 is it was the final nail for the3 Fiero. GM had hoped to build this car on the same line as the Fiero by 1988-89. The Fiero needed a companion car built in the Pontiac MI plant as they were over building the car and were just reaching build totals of 30,000 Fiero's a year, a number which Pontiac origianlly wanted untill they got saddled with a large one car plant and had to justify the cost. The first year built was 140,000 which helpped kill future sales even with out the other problems. How many 2 seater are you going to sell in a limited market? Anyway WIth the GM 80 canceled on top of the recalls and bad press it gave the people from the Chevy division all they needed to press GM into killing the Fiero. The sad thing was Pontiac had the 1990 car ready to go in coupe and GTP form. Why was Chevy worried? Pontiacs new car had 220 HP DOHC V6, a new suspension and a new body that was later adapted to the F body of all things. The car photo'ed below was built in 1986 and has the same gauge panel as the F body used in 1993. Chevy in the late 80's could not afford to lose sales as the Vette has been threatened with being cut many times in the 80's-90's. Even for the C6 Chevy had to give in for the new Caddy to be a sister car, something they really did not want to do. Things like this prove GM is it's worse enemy at time's.

GM's timing is not as bad as many think. If the SUV market is slow what would you rather have a old Tahoe or the new one? In this market the newest and best will doninate and It will be hard for the others to justify the cost of updates on slow products. GM will have the newest toy out there and many will opt for it. Also when the milage increases oner the next few years with the added technology GM sales will take less of a hit than the others on these high profit vehicles. I think in a few years we will look back and see it was not as good as it could have been if the price of oil stayed low. But we will see GM did better than the rest of the market in the long run. If they rode this out with the old truck sales would be well behind what we will see.

If you build a great performance car and add killer looks you could name it the Turd and it would sell. If you look as some of the lame name's there not any better than the numbers. Pontiac people may not like it but they will buy a Pontiac no matter the name. Conquest sale are the name of the game and many of them would not buy a Grand Am by name no matter how good it is.

Funny how car and driver tested the Cddy and AMG and the Caddy came out ahead of it! Though the BMW was first. MT car of the they year is advertising driven and had been documented. You spend a lot of many with MT you get the wink wink nod nod every time. Past car of the year winners were things like a Torino, Gremlin, Renult, Vega and many more unforgetable cars. I think they have lost a lot of credibility on their award and few really pay attention to it. Mostly the same folks who think Consumer Guide knows it all. Ask a real car person they know whats up!

It is there party and their plans to release it. They should get the call, they paid for it!

I hope Fbodfather will not be upset if I repost his comments on Z28C. I think he said it better in his original statment and I would not paraphrase it as well. Please read and enjoy. If you feel compelled this is a great thread to start and leave ADULT feed back with the understanding that this was not a completed concept car. I am sure Scott will see our coments and appreciate our feedback. Here is where your words can make a differance. Fbodfather: To my fellow enthusiasts. I think I'm pleased, for the most part, as to the comments I'm hearing. Yes, there will always be a few that have harsh words....that's to be expected. I still look forward with great relish to watching the faces and expressions of my fellow enthusiasts as they see the concept in person for the first time....(you have no idea of how much I look forward to it.......) Now.........why am I upset? (let's forget the Corp. position for a moment, shall we?) How many times have you met someone......and your first impression was "Well, if he/she wasn't >all sweaty/dressed poorly/bad-hair-day/20 pounds overweight/bad mood/ --insert anything bad here -- < ...........he/she would be a knockout........... See what I mean? First impressions are oh-so important. We did not get the chance to control a first impression. The pictures you saw are obviously not of a finished product. WE won't go into the financial impact this will have on GM....but suffice to say it will. We do want your input.......but there's a proper way to get that. Your input, believe it or not, has been somewhat compromised in that, again, you did not see a finished product. Moreover, it started a firestorm of controversy on several sites..and people started flinging insults back and forth.....and in a few cases, some close friends were summarily flamed beyond recognition. Because of someones' (that's plural, by the way) poor judgement, people are now mad at each other. That is even MORE unfortunate. So........yup.......I am beyond angry at the GM or contract employee that allowed these photos to be posted. I suppose I will eventually lose some of my anger at a few webmasters that also played a part in this scenario. All that said..........I hope you like what you saw. It is not the finished concept...and moreover, you can never adequately or fairly judge a product by a picture......esp. one like you saw. I hope that each of you will get to see the concept in person as it tours the country to several autoshows and events.......and that you are even more excited and enthused. I hope that there's a lot of good that comes from this unfortunate experience......and that now, most, if not all of you can plainly see that 'The Future Indeed Looks Bright!" Scott also noted "the car is NOT RETRO in person". Here is my feedback to start. Well any way I was glad to see the car is even better than I expected and not a slave to a single model year of the past. I just don't know were Ford will go with the Mustang next? Will it be a retro 69. I enjoyed the underbody as much as any as it showed me things I had hoped to see. The GM staff behind this should be applauded for not taking the easy way out by going retro or letting the wind tunnel tell them wha to draw. There are too few good original designes these days as it is. I also know the mirrors are concept and will not make production but they just don't work well with the car. I was as much please with the underbody picture and what I saw showed me many things I wanted to see. If a IRS and coil overs can be retained with a V8 for 30K this will be a bargin performance car in much the same way the Z06 is the best supercar for the dollar. Speaking of the Vette, did I note a little C6 in the quarters and rear tail light panel? The 2009 model if introduced in fall 08 would only be 20 months out from January. The future is bright and not as far off as many feel.

Supremus, Get that off of here ASAP. GM is hunting down all the post on this and if they catch who did it at GM heads will rolll. This site is clean so far and we have some GM folks that post on tis site that are upset about that picture. If we want to retain them as friends we need to work with them.

Panther This is going to hit harder than the Z06 leak last year. There was some major effort by security to find out who leaked it. If some if found losing their job at GM will be the best thing that happens to them. This is a jailable offence. As for the web site's I expect many will be cut off for posting and playing dumb. Scott is a web sites best friend and asset and you do him wrong by playing dumb I expect you will not see much in future clues and updates. Newbie, Scott is more than setting up the showing. He was also the head of the last F body program and look like may be a leader if not the the leader of the new one. If he says something on Camaro's take it to the bank. He also is a car guy like we need more of in Detroit and will fdo more to make the new car rigth and what people expect more than anyone. They no longer build a lot of clays like they did in the 60's and are near the point clays are nearly a thing of the past with everything being done on the computer it is not used like it once was. So I expect what we saw was very close to what we will see in Detroit as the concept car. Things like the mirrors and other non concept things will change but I figure that we have seen pretty much what it is. Also note from Concept to street at GM in most cases is 18 month of late. So that is why people are very hot at GM. Also note it was not just pictures but the under body and drivetrain layout that was exposed. That is more damaging info then the car it's self.

I understand and thanks for posting Scott. I had a family member well placed in GM from the late 20's throught the early 60's and he was old school. But he gave me great insite to what has lead to where we are at today. The new thinking and quicker reation to meet and try to lead the market. This is what I saw lacking in my great uncles world. While most companys were working hard to make there place things got lax and we are seeing the price paid now by those who inherited it. I hope they keep with the new thinking and prevent those who want to take the easy way out and gut the company in way we never thought possiable. By the way the GM car saved my $1000 on my Comp G GTP. It was not a deciding factor for me as I am a GM buy. But that thousand dollars would or could have made a big differeance to a less than loyal customer. People today expect great sevice and low prices and loyalty is becoming a thing of the past. That would explain Hyundi wouldn't? Walmart has also built themselfs on this principal. The one who provides the lowest prices, best valued cars along great service will win here. I see GM making up ground in these areas. This will help change the preception of many. At times I wonder who in the Finacial world has a lot to gain to see GM fail. Even when things go right at GM someone always wants to try to point out it is not as good as it could have been? Wall Street has been overly harsh vs other companies. Enough rambling and again thanks for the post.

It was real and it was great. There is no dought what car it is when you see it. If you missed it all I can say, I have seen the future and it is GOOD! Sorry, I will not go into anymore detail to preserve this thread. Things look a little hot right now for some sites. Please everyone don't go into details and or ask or send photo's.. Some very important people are very upset and this site is clean so far and lets keep it that way or we might lose more future info when it comes.

I own one a Comp G and find it average. I like the seats in front The gauges The headliner door panels are good but I would move the window switchs up. Steering wheel is fine. Heads up display is great folding rear seat info center Trunk release on the door lock buttons. Red back light I hate the dash and console plastic Rear seat needs more padding better trim than the painted silver on the console the 04 XM 6 disc radio looks very very bad for a top line radio padddle shifters are fine but need moved in a little closer even for my medium size hands I feel an upgrade of dash plastic and better or real aluminum trim would go a long way to making the interior look much better. but I find it not much worse or cheaper feeling than many imports under 30K. I paid 24K new for this car and it has been a very good car all the way around. Pontiac was going to offer a carbon fiber parts for the interior but have not seen them sold yet. They would help give it a upgraded look. FYI the engine turned dash of the GXP does little for this long time Pontiac fan. I would rather have the guage panel I have now. It just did not look like the same I am used to in the 64 GTO or the 70's TA. The interor is not what I would call bad but I will be the first to say they could have and should do better. Even the new G6 looks better with the wood trim.

Sorry, I speak of only the present of the new 06 models base on the updated old W platform.

Hey I never claimed to be great on a keyboard. But which ever works best for you run with it. On the other hand if it sold more cars! HHMMM....... Magic Fingers driver seat HHHmmm................

The 300 does sell well at 30k, I have not seen the numbers on the Magnum or Charger but around Ohio I see more new FWD Impalas on the old W than I do either of them. My point is GM wants to keep the family sedan like a RWD Chevy sedan and RWD 2 door coupe under 30K well appointed. Once you climb over 30K your sales start to drop. I think even with the LX cars under 30K the numbers they turn are far from what Chevy expects in a Family sedan. If any of the LX family is in the top Five let alone top ten in sales in this country I would be suprised. Chevy wants a top ten car! I thought I saw that the 300 sold 77,000 car last year. Chevy want and needs to do better than that. I have had several people who own the V6 say it is ok but wished they could have afford a V8. Now with the V8 your price climbs quickly. If Chevy can beat 30K with a V8 it will give them a marked advantage and increased sales. The Camaro need to meet of beat the Mustang and it is at 25K-30K. The Ford may be newer than the W and have a advantage but it ever so slight for a clean sheet of paper brand new car. The Ford is very unimpressive for the money and work Ford has put into it. At best it is a good car but an average car. I would never trade my GP for one. Ford needed at Home run and got a single or double at best. Lets face it even Ford has addmitted they failed when the car came out. Ford staff said they need more power and that they already has a restyling in the works. If they had done a better job like they did on the Fusion they would have hit the home run. Ford really dropped the ball on styling and power!

The 3800 is on it's way out and I expect will be retires soon. Not sure what V6 the Camaro will get but the V6 car is more important than ony other edition GM will sell. The V6 will be your volume car and needs to be sold in greater numbers than the V8. This is how and why there still is a Mustang. The 4th Gen F body just never had a V6 that complimented the car well. Also the egronomic's were very poor for women. They did not like the seating, no trunk, it sat low, and moany short women could not see out the front or back. On the other hand Men loved the car as it was a 4 seat Vette to many. Ford has always enjoyed a large share of Female Mustang buyers and most were V6 car. When women buy 50% of the cars sold today GM would be foolish to not make sure the Camaro appealed to them to. Let's face it It is had to find a guy who would not buy a V8 Camaro. GM need to apeal to them but also the folks who would not have bought before.

The 300 at $30,000 plus is selling but not in the numbers GM wants to sell Impala's or what ever they car the RWD sedan when it apears. Ford had the 500 Selling in the mid $25K range but the car is lame. Ford comes out with the Mustang priced $25-30K and GM is already selling a GTO in low number over 30K. Chevy could not pricve the Camaro over 30K and sell in the numbers needed to compete with the Mustang. From what I have read and Lutz has stated I think it is clear GM wanted to be able to price the RWD cars around 25K to sell and with reduced cost make more money per unit. Once you get over 30K your numbers start to drop for a family sedan and low priced performance car. They sell at the higher prices but look at the number of units sold. This pricing only works for lower production companies like BMW etc.

There have been some that have denied that the Concept car was going to be shown back on Sept 4 when I posted what I knew was good info. I had first heard about it back in August but just needed to here it from a second place. But to be fair this has been a low profile project for many reasons we will learn later, lets face it they have only refered to this as "the Car" internally. The car being shown is a Concept and will be called nothing more at this point. I suspect from as long as this has been in the works the car will be closer to production than many want to believe. I have been told by they same places that the car has been worked on to some degree at various levels for near 2 years. This is not a quick throw together Solstice type show car deal. I have not been told this but I have a feeling what we will see will be in the 80% give or take range of a production car. I have not heard a business case being approved but if they want to make their point the more production like car is the better to make their case to produce it. This showing is important toward getting the car produced and they have to get everything right. GM needs this car and the folks behind it want it as bad as we all do on this web site. Scott S. is a great car guy and a very good Chevy/ GM historian and know what the score is on this. I think we will all be greatful to him for his efforts once this is done. It has been too long since Chevy had a outspoken car guy outside the Corvette group. I think the next few years GM performance will rise higher than it ever did in the 60's. The new Solstice and Z06 is just a example of what to expect out of a GM car.

The difference you have here is they are showing a concept car when before this was all just paper proposals. The worse thing GM could do other than not building a RWD car is showing one and not building it. I know every one wants to call GM idiots but not all there are and they would never let this car go to concept for a show with out a intention for production. We are talking Camaro not Nomad here and there are some folks still sore it went away the first time. If this was some hydrogen kryptonite powered car that will do 0-60 in 1.4 sec and get 75 mpg I might be a little leary. But this is a hot button car and GM would be doing something worse than everything in the last 20 years combind as to show a Camaro show car with no intent to put it on the market. Besides the guys working on this car know better and would never let it happen as they are wanting this car as much as we do. They are the reason the name has not been slapped on some FWD 6 banger. Would you have wanted a Camaro II to live down like Ford still is. This car is in good hands! The only thing that could hurt here is the finacial problems, but clearer heads are prevailing and letting the new product flow.

I have been told by a reliable person that the Name would be clear in 2006 but was not given a date. I did assume if the concept was shown in Jan the release date negotiated may be Jan 1st. The original agreement was 2017 plus different case if this or that took place. I assume it could and has been negotiated out. This is not like dealing on a 60% pay cut here. We will know on Jan 8th byt the name it carries. Scott did note last Feb the Z28 would be the top line car and the SS would be lower but by his latest post on CZ28 it makes one think Z28 has gone back to the regular place as performance car and a SS wouls return later. I know he said in Feb it was not final in anyway at that point. One thought could they call it a Z28 and not a Camaro? He made the statment that when you say Z28 everyone thinks Camaro you say SS it could be any line car at Chevy. He also noted the SS went away but came back later???

91z4me did you see Scotts post on names on cz28? He gave a statment that "if one is to say Z everyone knows it is a Camaro but if you say SS it could be anything." He followed it up with a "The SS did go away for a few years but did return later." The final line was wanting to know if he was driving us crazy yet. I have been thinking on this and wonder if this means the cars standard performance version will be a Z28 with a higher model later of a SS? Or does it mean the new car may be call a Z28 and not a Camaro? I have never seen the name Z28 was off limits. I also think that if a Chevelle is made it will be a 4 door. Back in the day half or more Chevells were 4 doors and with todays market Chevy could use a 4 door sedan that size. We also know GM may have made mistakes but those working on the Camaro would never make it a 4 door. Unless it was like the Saturn hidden doors. I don't know what cars built where but these would replace the W cars and that is their best plant. The are reported gone in 08 so what would they build in the great white norh in 09? More clues only make more questions!

Here is a look at the Turbo engine.

Thanks F bodfather for the post. I just relized I put Zeta and not Kappa on my last post. I saw your post on the Camaro site. Sorry my mistake. I will be glad when the Guessing is done. Fbodfather, if you can give any clues or comment on the following I would be greatful. I did note your post on a name. It said if you say Z28 everyone knows you have a Camaro and when you say SS it could be anything. Also you noted the SS went away for a while then returned. My take on your note is if this goes production a Z28 would be considered for the standard performance model and the SS will return later as the top end car as it was with the 4th Gen. That is if GM were to build a Camaro again. Am I snatching the pebble correctly from your hand on this? Also I know you pointed out the importance in the past on a V6 model if the Car was built again. Would the V6 be as very important to a new Camaro as the V6 is to the Mustang yet? I know in the 4th gen V6 sales never were what they needed to be in the base car.

I think they ask 6 of ther writers to review the cars and 6 of 5 picked the Pontiac including the stories author. The sport compact import guy like the Miata, go figure.

What's Martha going to say: a Buick is a great investment if you sell early? or The new Lucerne is a real steal of a value in todays market. I can hear it now: the interior is well appointed and is as larger than my cell was! Now here is a car that you can make get away in with style. Tiger just stands aside and says "O" brother! I can see Buick getting a lot of air time with this but it will be on Leno and Letterman.