hyperv6

evok: [Let us get the facts straight, the Camaro is not made yet. And the business case for the Camaro will be for a vehicle that will sell on price from $20k to $35k depending on engines and options. The 2006 concept would be priced at $35k with the 400hp engine. The Camaro concept is within inches of the current GTO when you look at dimensions.] reply: GM needs to price the Camaro at or below the Mustang or it will fail! A lower price V6 model also needs to sell in the greatest volume well equipt. The V6 Mustang is why Ford still has a Mustang. evok: [Where is the price point $35K? Sorry to tell you that is smack at the high end of the Camaro and at the entry point of the CTS/C.] reply: The GTO would not be high volume of have many options. It would be 35K-40K and under sell the CTSV that is coming. The CTSV is a sedan and will have strandard 500 HP in the near future to make a CTCV and GTO thing a non issue. evok: [Hate to tell you it is not that simple. By the way, what platform? Zeta was cancelled once for NA already in case you do already know. Many of the reasons why the programs were cancelled were because they could not get the issues you bring up to work.] reply: The new Holden platform will base the Camaro, GTO and RWD sedans. Also it is as easy as I state now with then new platform [New Zeta or what ever they call it]. These are not my words but holdens words. This is for once a true world plaform not another vain attempt. GM delayed the Zeta to make it much more shareable and to keep cost down. The key was to keep the cost down so they don't end up like Dodge with a Charger over 40K evok: [Think outside the box, GM is a lot bigger than Pontiac and Buick. A Pontiac coupe as I have shown above will step on Chevys toes and the CTC if either come out. As for the sedans that is a different story.] reply: Chevy is you price and volume leader and they will make the low end high value car. This is not what will compete with a BMW or an Audi. The GTO can and will at a higher price with a much different car built on the smae platform. This is not going to be a Camaro with a nose graft. Also the sedans will follow the same. The Impala will be much like a Camary competitor and the GP replacment will compete as a low end BMW compeitior. Buick Also will not see a 2 door coupe .

Well it just is not in the cards for Buick to have a coupe so this leaves it to Pontiac. Also Pontiac would have a much more uplevel coupe than Chevy and not a Camaro clone so no overlap there. Buick and Pontiac are going to be like BMW but Pontiac will cover the M series side as Buick covers the standard Luxury and mid level BMW side. Caddy has the top end covered. Check out the link in the Camaro section that was just put on. They interveiw folks from Holden and they confirm they are working on the Camaro and mention the GTO. The GTO name has too much equity just as the Camaro to not use it. The Grandsport name is great but has never over taken the GTO name in heritage. I will stick to my prediction of 18-20 months for a Camaro and 6-8 month after that time for a GTO. Some of the coming RWD sedans will be seen around the same time the one replacing the GP first. I did not use the G8 name as I would not be suprised if they ditch the G numbers.

This is a good read and explains much of what is going on. Some may not want to believe yet but time will show them that this is where they are going. GM has every intention of building the Camaro. To show a Camaor Concept and not build it would be a worse public relations mess than GM has ever seen! I expect to see a Camaro in 18-20 months and a GTO with in 6-8 months of that. Just how soon till we see the GTO concept? It going to be Chicago, NY or the fall LA show. I also expect to see the RWD sedans in the very near futrue as these cars are all tied together.

Pontiac if it is going to be the performance Euro division they have always made out to be needs a RWD Coupe and Sedan. The Firebird is off the table and plainly noted by Scott S. He said things could always change but it is not in the cards. Pontiac does not need a Camaro clone. The Camaro is made to do battle as a lower cost Muscle car against the Mustang. Now a GTO on the same platform built in the BMW style coupe in a more upscale form is more of what is needed. This car is not aimed at the hot rod market but the 3/5 series BMW and Audi crowd. Body chassie tune, luxury scale would all be different from the Camaro. It's price would start above the Camaro and under the CTS. RWD is coming and the platform is already done. The drivetrains are all in place so at this point all that is needed is bodys and chassie set ups that will define the personality of each car. This is not that hard to do as vs starting from scatch. They would also be economical when built on the same line and run a plant at capacity. As of now to do two Pontiac like a RWD perfomance coupe and sedan would not step on Buicks toes as they offer nothing like this. Buick is going for the low end Cadillac owners that want a good quality good handling luxury car with out the mega price. Pontiac would be like Lexus and Acura [if they made RWD] in one dealer.

FYI: I don't believe anything MT prints and the only Edmunds is see is repost here. I not saying your wrong it's just my prediction and if its right great if not so be it. Your welcome to your opinion too and I am not going to argue about it so just leave it at that. Either way it will be interesting to watch. I just don't see Pontiac the Performance division going it with one RWD sedan and no up level luxury perfomance coupe to go with it. Buick had nothing to fill that void either. I do know that there will not be a any Firebirds unless the Camaro really takes off and then it will still have very little odds of coming back.

Mark this down and will just see what happens. 18-20 months. GM has done some dumb things but showing a concept Camaro and not building it would finish GM off. The public relation fall out would be of a nature they would never recover from. When a Camaro is green lighted a GTO is a go as long as they don't drop Pontiac. Pontiac is not going to make it on G6 and Solstice alone. Also keep in mind 165,000 production numbers need a little help and GTO can provide that.

Now that the Camaro has broke cover how soon till the new GTO Concept appears? Several reports stated the new Camaro will share the Zeta platform with the new GTO. Will we see it in Chicago? This is where many of Pontiac's production conepts appeared in the past. Or will it be N Y or LA in the fall.

No need to worry about calling GM as we will see this car go into production in Approx 18 months. As for the complaints, when I see a handfull complain it is too retro and some say it is not retro enough just validates that GM hit it just right. If they keep the price right and weight at or neer 3500 they will have done what was needed. By the way it is a Zeta just like the new ones in Austrailia. Look for the GTO soon to appear!

The car looks good but being so retro how long till we tire of a familiar look? The problem I also see is it is too big and too heavy. Also if they can't sell it well equipt for 25k-30K it will never sell in great numbers. Is this Chryslers new Prowler?

Anyone able to make out the emblem on the fender by the rocker?? It is not a GM emblem and does not look to be a GM Design emblem. When I blow it up I still can not make it out.

I would expect a mid summer to fall 08 as a 09 and I will stand by it. Also they said it will be built on the same Zeta as the GTO? Is this a slip about the new GTO? Can we expect a 08 GTO show car in Chicago, New York or the Fall LA show this year?? They said a production Pontiac would be shown but I still don't think they were talking about the GXP Soltice. At this point the RWD concepts should be falling fast. For all the Lutz haters this is the clean sheet of paper stuff we have been waiting for. Only the Sky and Solstice were car he did not have to try to fix with out a lot money. The next few years should really back him up.

I think many are going to be shocked at how big the Challanger is going to be and how small the Camaro is. Chevy took the right way and did not go over board on the retro or size. One thing to note, till you see the car in person the shape is hard to get the styling impact in just a photo. It will look less reto in person. The Camaro will be like many of the new car shown of late and will display real presence in person. If you like it now just wait till your face to face with it. One last note to anyone who tries to compare the Challanger to the Camaro. It was reported the Challanger designer is a Camaro owner.

Check CZ28.com for time and web cast info. Scott is to post info there Sunday night if all goes as planned.

Buick was the car of the last royal family in China. This means a lot to people in China today. Talk about brand loyalty.

Who says you have to do a wagon back. Found this surfing around the net.

This is like comparing a Toyota to a Lexus. One is a better luxury car over all but the other is a better value. The question is just what do you want.

How long till we see the auto industry do what the TV and electronics people and many other industries have done? If the Unions don't cave our Chevys, Caddys and Pick up's will be coming from Plants in Shanghi. If the American workers won't work for less someone else will. The Design it here build it there will apply to our auto industry in the future. That will be a very sad day! To be competitive on a world basis there is not going to bre company loyalty to any workers if the company wants to survive. Also they can complain what CRO's are paid but even if they were paid $1 it would not change much as their pay is only a drop in a very large bucket.

Sorry, It was a typo I ment GM Not M series. GM is offering 4 two seaters in the States and my point they have it well covered now. Chevy just could put the money to a higher profit and volume car.

Now if some German company can bolt on of these on how hard would it be for GM to bolt on the Concept fast back coupe?

Let see what does Chevy need before a second roadster? A Impala that is rated higher than a Honda and sells like a Camry. A replacment for the Monte Carlo. A Minivan or cross over that is class leading. The new Malibu we are waiting for in 08 that will clean the clocks of all comers. The Camaro in the Fall of 08. Fix the poor interiors of the Colorado. Performance upgrades to the HHR. All wheel drive Cobalt A Nomad and or El comino Price all cars to under cut the compition. What would a second Roadster do? Pull a few people into the show room but fewer that Saturn and Pontiac did since the Kappa news will be old by then. Will it reap high profits?? Don't think so. What is to be gained other than 20,000-30,000 sales max if your your lucky but in reality will sell around 18,000 at best. 2 seaters are a limited market and M has it well cover at this point. Chevy is well on its way to recovery but this car just does not fit anywhere in their needs. At this time GM needs to make every dollar count!

I could see this on the Opel as Shooting brakes are very popular in Europe. Too bad they can relocate the fuel tank and put a Nomad type roof on a Chevy with 4 seats.

Chevy needs this like Pontiac needs another Aztec. It would only rob sales from the Vette and any future Camaro convetible sales. How about a sporty car like a Mini that looks like a Nomad? And don't just tell me they can't do it on a Kappa just find a platform they it will work on.

Don't try to over think this as it can make one frustrated. His point is they at this point don't know how well the Camaro will sell and how profiable they will make it. So why build two cars till you know how things will go. GM and others have had a hard time predicting the mass market 2 door coupe market. Only Ford has been able to sell the Mustang. Lets face it even Chrysler wimpwd out and made the Charger a 4 door. Now that Mustang sales havbe been very good Chrysler and GM are looking but will be careful in their moves. If the Camaro sells in great numbers you may see a Firebird but right now GM needs to make every dollar count and a RWD 4 door Pontiac sedan needs the funding more as the odds it will be a better seller. At this point lets just be glad we have one coupe coming. As I stated keep this info in the back of your mind and as more things happen it all falls into place.

I have not heard him address the GTO for a good while. I did like the line: "Do not assume that the Camaro will be the only product in whatever plant is decided upon. There will be other entries in that plant....and the other entries may be surprising to you. (sorry, I can't say more than that at this point in time.....)" Makes you wonder?

Posted on CZ28 and both post are copied and pasted as originally posted. God I wished he posted this stuff on this site for us too but I know his time is limited. I hope he does not mind the repost but it is a good read and give you an Idea were things are going. I know it hints around but save this and with future news it will add up. They were asking about a return of the Firebird. FIST POST:Fbodfather well...I guess I should chime in here. First.....I would say that "never" is a longgggggggggg time.....so I don't want to say never. Second....I understand your being upset. That's actually, in some ways, a good thing....it shows your passion for the Firebird...and while it may sound trite, we're glad that people feel so strongly toward one (or more) of our brands....... Interesting tidbit.......the Colorado was a 'chevy only' product.....but the Canyon was executed in record time when it was decided that GMC needed an entry as well......... Now.......I don't think there's a person within GM that would be happier than I if the decision was made to bring the Firebird back.......AS LONG AS THE ENTRY DESERVED THE FIREBIRD NAME!!!!......(and that's important!!! It must be V8/RWD/and all the other things that make a Firebird a Firebird!!!!) That said, I also know what shape Ford and GM are in these days. Every dollar counts......and we have to wisely allocate the available dollars and personnel to make each dollar and person count ...'the best bang for the buck, so to speak'.........and I'm not convinced (and I know you don't want to hear this.....) that the wisest choice RIGHT NOW...is to do two "Fcars"......because like it or not, they do compete with each other. Yes, there are some Firebird owners that will never buy a Camaro and vice versa....but the numbers are not in the 80% range. As to the popularity of Impala in the 90s.....that's one of the most misunderstood issues -- in my opinion-- of the past ten years. Care to guess how many Impala SSs were built in the 94-96 model years? . . . . . . . .less than 67,000 units for the three model years combined. Yup...they flew off the shelves in 1994 and early 1995....but by the end of the 1995 model year, they were in dealer inventory.....sales slowed......and we had to throw rebates into the formula to move 'em out so we could build more.......... Now........we sold over 200,000 Impalas last year......the OLD body style......5 years into a lifecycle. I make this point for a reason: >Everything GM and Ford does.....EVERYTHING.....MUST be with the stockholder in mind. Like it or not, we're in the business to make money...the stockholder and Wall Street demand it! If we were making billions of dollars, I'd be screaming from the top of all 7 towers in the RenCen......that we need a Firebird and we need it NOW!!!! But a quick look at reality will show that GM is losing Billions........and we need to turn that around NOW or we aren't gonna be here! (yes, I believe we'll be here for a long time.....assuming that the economy doesn't dip into recession and Delphi does not go on strike....) So........yup.......I understand your passion for the Firebird...probably more than you'll ever know........and yes, I think we need a Firebird.......and yes, I realize that there are a lot of upset Firebird (and Pontiac) enthusiasts out there.........and yes, this has been a long post, and no, you probably still aren't happy with the answer......but I DO believe I owe you an explanation. Please...do not assume you will never see another Firebird...... Oh yeah.....as to the Silverado/Sierra and Solstice/Sky .......let me address those next........(in another post) OTHER POST: There, in my opinion, will continue to be both a Silverado and A Sierra pickup truck for well into the future.......for several reasons......some being: >Profit......that's where the dough is.......... >Size of market.......we sell more Silverados ALONE....than the entire "Sport coupe" market..........in fact, we sell over TWICE as many Silverados as all cars in the sport coupe market combined......that's a pretty powerful statement. >Dealer Bodies.........we have francise agreements with our dealers. Can you imagine what would happen to a GMC dealer if we suddenly stopped building Sierras? (no, we couldn't just give 'em Silverados.......francise laws in most states forbid doing that) Further, when the 900 series pickups are introduced, you'll see even more differentiation between Chevy and GMC. Now.......Solstice and Sky......first, I think you'll see a wider delta in terms of pricing....both are 'halo' cars for their Divisions........(yes, Firebird would be a halo as well....)....and both are very low volume.......in order for the business case to work, I suspect that the Solstice could not survive very long without the added volume from Sky. I'm not a subject expert here.....but knowing what I know about this industry, I think I'm on safe ground making that statement. Do not assume that the Camaro will be the only product in whatever plant is decided upon. There will be other entries in that plant....and the other entries may be surprising to you. (sorry, I can't say more than that at this point in time.....) So......yes, there are good strong rational decisions for why there is a Silverado and a Sierra........and a Solstice and a Sky. And....perhaps as the market continues to change, there MAY be a reason to have Camaro and Firebird. But I have yet to see the 2-door market grow. Yes, Mustang sales are up, but the coupe market continues to contract across all market segments. That's simply due to consumer preferences. You can advertise til the cows come home, but you cannot force a market. Anyway......I've been long winded here.......and again, I'm sorry I can't give you (or anyone) the answers they want to hear.......but I'm just trying to shed some light on the issues raised. Keep the faith! You nor I know what the future may hold! (and hey, perhaps a Camaro is right for you until the Firebird comes back!)