hyperv6

If Pontiac is to make it it needs to address cars like these and not with G6's and G5's. These are good cars but not great cars and can be bought cheaper as a Chevy. If Pontiac was to live GM needs to let them be more than a fancy Chevy and beat the real compitition. If they are going to charge 25-30K they need to off more than what they have been. Good is no longer Good enough.

Pontiac has had little control over some models going back to the 67 Firebird as it was not what Delorean wanted. He delayed and fought GM on it till they told him to build it or else. He did try to change it enough to make it their own car but starting late he had to live with only hood and minor trim changes. At least he still had Pontiac power and suspension mods to help. As time went on and post 1979 most Pontiac became more trim and minor tweeks away from a Chevy. Their last true Pontiac effort was the Fiero and even that was a compromised because of GM involvment and canceling of the car several times. Today Pontiac is more Suspension tune and body changes as most of the platforms and engines are the same. Pontiac needs to set itself appart and become their own again. If they are to live they have to compete more with those outside GM vs Chevy. Lets face it today the Pontiac owner is a traditional Pontiac owner which is a dying breed and or a guy who would just be as happy behind a wheel of a Chevy. I know my time line is not a detailed look at all the Pontiac but if one would look most are not that far from a Chevy and it hurts. Pontiac has for years tried to bring new and different cars. If you look ant many of the cars like the Supercharged Trans Am, The SSEI they made with a V8 and RWD in the 90's and many of the supercharged still born V6, V8 and 4 cylinders one would know those in Pontiac have tried but can see GM stopped all their efforts from production.

If your not first profitable your never going to be or stay #1. Making a profit is #1 priority and if you can do that who is #1 over all will take care of itself. Profit=Better Products being develped and Better Products=Growth.

He is one for all of us to work on while we wait for any new news. If Pontiac has to have a FWD car or two what can they add from GM's platforms that is much different from the Cobalt, NG Malibu or Aura? Pontiac needs a car that is more Pontiac than Chevy and will not steal sales from any other GM lines. AWD is off the table in this quest for now to keep it under 30K. The car has to be different and with a true performance nature [no slap on cladding or FX here]. It also should be directed at conquest sales from Honda, Toyota and Mazda. Price needs to be under 30K and can start at 18K. I'm not saying the G6 is a bad car but it is not stealing a lot of sales from the compitition, so what is it going to take. Keep in mind development fund are not endless. Oh, and nothing is to be shared with Buick. I am thinking of a true Civic Fighter and Mazda 6 Fighter. Lets see what ideas we have!

Lose the over sized frnder bulges and give me the Tahoe fenders. They make the wheels look too small even thought I sure they are 17" or 18"

I like the plan, but I would work hard to eliminate any overlaps with Chevy. The last the better Pontiac can move away from Chevy the better. In the old days no one complained that the GTO was based on a Chevelle but they sure hate to see the G5 based on the Cobalt. Pontioac needs to use GM cars not sold in this country from Holden and they need to make their cors their own.

On the contrary! 1959 Bill Mitchells Stingray was not only a street car, show car prototype and styling that lead to the 63 Vette. The Stingray was a SCCA race winng champ in the hands of the Dentist racer Dick Thompson. The Stigray won the C-modified class SCCA National title in 1959 and 1960 before the car became Mitchells personel car. These if I recall are the first road racing titles won by a Vette. It also is one of GM most prized show cars of all time. FYI: winning the title ment a lot as the car was a handful to drive. It had lots of lift in the front. I saw the car in New York at the GM building a few years back and it is still stunning.

I expect in time we will see more weight savings in the form or Carbon Fiber and other new materials. Weight reduction is the easiest way for increased performance if you willing to pay for it. I don't see AWD in the near future. If they are working to remove weight why add more in the driveline? Also it can take 100-200 HP to run the front drive. I see the weight and cost penalty going against what the Vette is all about the best performance for the money. Also forget about a spit window. They got rid of it years ago because it was a blind spot. GM had many complaint in just the one year it was out. IN this day of safety freaks I don't see that one coming back. Last I head and it ws a while ago this car was to look more like a C6R road going version. It was to look more racer like than the Z06.

If you look around the boring international/symmetrical stack is what the general public is buying and like em! They buy Camry's too that are boring but it is what sells. Not my cup of tea but if it sells cars! Just my opinion on the hand brake. I feel the foot brake should have hit the junk pile long ago in any car with bucket seats and console. I feel foolish when I get out of a CTS V and try to pull the hand brake becuse there is none! I would even settle for one on the left like the Fiero before getting a foot brake.

I expect for the 30K difference in price between it and the Z06 we will see a few new things they just have not spoke of yet. I also expect more aero work, brakes and tires to support the cars top speed. I know they wanted the car under 3000 pounds, I wonder how close they got.

At present the only Kappa woulf have been a Solstice clone and Chevy needs it like a hole in the head. If GM goes through with a Kappa 2 that can be expanded we might see a Nomad. They just don't have the platform to support it yet. Keep in mind the show car was just that a show car on a non production platform.

Autoweek is reporting that when Chevy said there was no Blue Devil they were not lying. That is because it has been given the name Sting Ray. Little info was reported that we did not know already such as Carbin Fiber Hood, 600 HP, and a price at $100,000. I am sure ther will be added features over the Z06 and by the time it reaches market it will find a little more than 600 HP. Thwy alway seem to find 5-15 HP at release time. I wonder it this finally kills the Kappa idea that Chey did not need.

I know I have missed somethings somewhere in this ramble because if it were only this easy........... That is whey we are all CEO's here and not getting paid for it! The bottom line is no matter how they end up doing it they need to find profit somwhere for both brands.

Ypur 100% right and I agree fully with your numbers. I think I should have fully explained more of my line of thought better. Pontiac would sell less total vehicles but it would make more profit per car. The less is more idea. I would expect a drop in sales with less models. Also I would expect more profit id the cars shared more with Holden just as the Saturn/Opel deal is working. The price on these cars would be above Chevy and Saturn so here too I would expect less sales. It is hard to put into a short post, but the whole idea is this. Offer RWD cars GM has sold else where in the world, but would be sold here in the Pontiac line Sell less cars but by shareing the line from Holden it would help make both more profitable. Sell cars in the states unlike anything the other division offer Go after conquest sales vs building another G5 or G6 that would steal Cobalt or Malibu sales. Etc. I think you might see where this is going. I know there is a lot more to this and a lot of things would need to be worked out. But in the end I see Buick/Pontiac being Holden USA with a few added models like the Enclave to fill out their needs. It is just the world platform idea applied to Pontiac/Buick. It is not too far off from what Toyata is doing with Lexus. I just figure if they could maintain or grow Buick let Pontiac drop to just a little but make both more profitable with shared world platforms. In the end you would save both names, improve the product and make more money per unit. I look at it this way your either going to have two weak division with a lot of product that is like other divisions. Or you can let them play to their strenghts and work as one division with two names. If sales increased then you could justify expanding the Pontiac line. You have to walk before you run and in this case they need to do it in a whole new way. A retro GTO or Bonnie is not going to fix what has been wrong. FYI: I would have some FWD in the dealership but they would be under the Buick badge only. I may be way off on this but it was just a thought. I know don't have all the answers or hard numbers to figure it all out. So keep in mind I in no way am saying this would work because I don't have all the needed info to prove it. My two key ideas are make Pontiac different and make them more profiable per unit. I am willing to lose some market share to gain profit. Good or bad it is just my take on a idea. Besides if it was so easy we would not have to be coming up with ideas on how to save Pontiac in the first place since the big money guys have blown it for years.

Toss out comparing any of the present line up [less Solstice]. 1 Large Performance Sedan RWD [Holden Statesman based] I am not sure this one is even needed but it is a thought. 1 Midsize Performance Sedan RWD [Holden VE base] 1 Midsize Performance Coupe RWD [Holden VE Based] 1 Small Performance Sedan RWD [second Gen Kappa Based] 1 Small Performance Coupe or Hatch RWD[second Gen Kappa Based] Solstice and or coupe variation [updated with Second Gen Kappa] No trucks, no SUV, no Mini Van, No FWD, Nothing shared with Chevy or Saturn outside of the Sky, Camaro or Impala RWD. With the Aura and NG Malibu there is no need for the G6. With the Cobalt and Ion there is no need for a G5 If you want a Toyota buy one so there is no need for the Vibe. Any truck or SUV would be GMC Pontiac has no need to have more than 5 different models if it is paired with Buick. No base rental car models either, keep the best suspesions on each and only two engine/tranny options at bests. Keep it simple and retain cost and you just might make a profit. You don't need 14 models and 3 variations of each to save Pontiac. Like wise with Buick let them have the mid size, bigger cars and cross overs. 4-5 models at best. Base them on Holden and FWD and ply them with all luxury options, quite and a smooth ride. Out lexus Lexues. Make a car for the buyer who can't pony up 50K or more on the Caddy. Quality should over ride all on the two lines! When you are asking for more money you better give better than Chevy Quality in all areas. I'm not going to say you need to use Tempest or Le mans at Pontiac but they do need names and not G numbers.

From what I have heard out of Lordstown is the Tubo is in the future for the Cobalt. I have been keeping an ear to the ground to see if I could confirm it but nothing yet.

I may be wrong but I think it will help give them a better chance and help save more money vs trying to save three different divisions independently. The key question is will they make all the right move if they try to save them or will it be a aborted effort after spending money they could use giving the stronger divisions more development? I feel better with the managment in place now to do it vs those in place when they tried to revamp Olds, but it would still be a gamble. I would be glad to see a division with four Buicks and four Pontiacs. It's better to be smaller and stronger than in the dust bin of history. If the present managment can save Saturn as it looks like they might, I would be willing to let them try to save Buick and Pontiac, or at least devise a plan to see if it can reasonably be done. But it is easy to think this way when it is not your money or job. I do not know if a Opel/ Saturn thing would work using Buick, Pontiac, GMC/Holden. It would reduce cost and fall in line with the world platform plan. I do not know the new Holden line very well and I am unsure how they could be morphed into Pontiac, Buick. But it is a though. I am just glad it is not my call because I just don't know what I would do.

Buick I think was saved by only one car and that was the Lesabre. Many of the folks who bought it were the same that used to buy Olds. The key is to make Pontiac a true performance line and so different from what else GM is offereing that it will make it's own place in the market. But if they just keep making a fancy Chevy, Pontiac will die just just as Olds did. Lets face it GM is Damned if they do and Damned if they don't with Pontiac. The run the risk of losing near 500,000 sales and market share. But they also risk losing a chunk of money that they could used else where to save the corperation somewhere else if it fails. I love Pontiac but see this as like someone with a leg infection. You don't want to lose the foot and want to try what ever you can to save it but it is not worth killing the person just to save a foot. Life goes on! If they are going to do this they need to do it right or not at all.

At this point Pontiac would be not between Buick and Chevy as Saturn has taken this spot. Pontiac would slot in equal with Buick but with a type different car. There goal is performance vehicles only and leave the Luxury and comfort end to Buick. Buick could be the perfect place to send the Camary owners as they get older. It is not a sin to make an car for those 50-70 as there are a hell of a lot of people in that age and they are not all going to pay 50K-75K for a Caddy. Pontiac would be slotted for the owner in the early 30-late 50's that sill like to drive vs just getting there in comfort only. Buick and Pontiac would be what GM has seldom seen, two divisions at the same level with two different product lines. They both would not offer cars for everyone and would not offer the same cars as each other. Think of it like BMW and the M series, twin brothers from differnt mothers. They may be base on some of the same parts but are two different beast on the street with two different jobs. Much more similar to how the top Lexus is more luxury vs the smaller Lexus that are more performance. I would make Pontiac more perfomance than the smaller Lexus though. As for the Solstice It is almost exactly just what I described but for the base engine. The club car is the GXP suspension just less the Turbo. Pontiac should make the GXP standard and you can add the air or what ever you want inside. If want a GXP with crank windows just fill out the sheet and order a lite car. One last thought offer all models with a full line of available SPO parts and go to the aftermarket. Let the tuners have their way with these cars just as Chevy did with the SBC in the 50's. The owners could modify and custom their rides to make the car there car. Also race what models you can race in the SCCA with factory support. It promotes the car and helps in development. People who buy performance watch racing and know racing. They know NASCAR is not a real street car but a SCCA M5 is near what they can buy. You need to make it cool to own a Pontiac again! Make Pontiac a contender not a pretender! Make it something someone would want to hang a post up of on the garage or office wall. Many thought losing the silver streaks in 1957 were the end of Pontiac when in truth they were only the begining of the best years they ever had. Olds was done when they slapped Cutlass on nearly every car they sold! The new designs and emblems were just too late.

Don't worry about the other cars as much as just giving Pontiac a proper modern performance image and quality. BMW is BMW so just let them be, it has worked well for Audi buy doing their own identity and own thing. If Pontiac was given a identity that set it apart from not only other GM car but the others it would compete against and it would make it an attractive alternitive. Not too many companies today are building original cars and here is a line and time to do it. What have you got to lose. Being kept with Buick would allow them to keep this a lower volume car and do things they could not afford to risk on say a Chevy. Lexus just trys to shadow Benz and BMW. They to make a great car at a better price but they are still not being very original. They are far from alone from originality. Audi has done AWD and was doing very well with original styling till they started to share with VW. But with the W engines and drive lines they are not shadowing BMW or Benz and have carved a nich in the below 45K area. As I have stated Pontiac needs to think outside of the box and be their own company in styling and options. Going RWD is a good start but keep going. Some things can be retained like the Arrow head but do a restyle like Caddy did. Update it to a new century and make it Aluminum, not red enamal. Give it a modern look of precieved quality when you look at it. Precieved quality is more than half the battle and change can send this signal The twin grill thing can be toned down like the Fiero GT was, it is there but not in your face. Or you could do a 1960 like front end It sold well and did not share the twin front and was great looking Lets face it the Charger is not the most got the best face on the front end but it is different and people are buying it. It looks more truck than car but is working. Pontiac needs to do with it's line up like Chevy has done with the ZO6! Give the public killer performance at a bargin price. Out run cars that are thousands more and skin it in killer looks. The ZO6 at 70k is killing cars at nearly twice the price. Do that in a Pontiac in styling people would want to be seen in and you will sell cars. I am not saying that they should sell Pontiacs at 70K but they could do 70K performance at 30-40K. GM will have a line of V6 and V8 engines that are faily cheap to build and are world class performers. Add this to the plain fact it cost no more to to style an ugly car vs a killer car. Yes it may lack some in the ultra high quality of materials vs Benz and BMW but at half the cost in killer looks many will accept the car for what it is just as the ZO6 has been. Just because some materials may not be ultra quality still does not mean it would not have excellent qualtity build materials used in its construction. Also build only top line cars not base cars. They all should have the top suspension and engine available, mechanically they need to be the best they can be. You could still leave many options up to the buyer on the inside as to seat material, sound system, sun roof etc. The lack of base rental like cars would give better image and look to the whole line. The best example is the lowest GP vs the top GXP. the bigger better wheels and spoiler help change the cars image on the road. How it looks going down the road is your best advertising. Even with my own Comp G I have had people that many tell me they don't like GP's but like mine. It has the top line wheels filling the wheel wells and all the SPO parts on it and other parts change the personality of the cars looks down the road. Lets face it Pontiac can afford the to be a Nich line so lets take advantage of this now. If done properly the Buick, Pontiac GMC dealers could be made into a ver busy dealer and fun dealer to buy from. The one very most important part of bringng Pontiac back is get the cars 100% right the first time as your not going to get a second chance!!!!!!!

A convert has expected to follow about a year after intro per those in the know.

GTO under the shell would make sense. As for the interior, it may be seen in the movie and they made it close to the concept with some GTO part tossed in. If it was never seen in the movie why would they even put any interior in to begin with when it has tinted glass. I am thinking we are being shown a little real and a little mock up here.

In the interior shot what can we make of the B pillar? Is the B plillar solid or will it go down with the rear window? If B pillar is solid at least it looks well hidden with the windows up. I would like to know more on Saleen on the car. I know Roush was said to be looking into doing a Camaro before that thread was removed from Cz28.

They are two different headlights and the gold one looks more production. I have seen posted that some claim it is a Mustang under a fiberglass shell. Well it may be fiberglass but I can promise you ther is not a Ford under the shell. GM may make some bad moves but they are not that dumb to put the competitors car under it new cars body for a mock up.

Anyone note a more production like head light over the silver car? This may still be a mock up but it is in a more production form over the silver car I saw in Feb. Does anyone know where the red car is right now? Also note a more production like tire on the car.