hyperv6

There are few perfect designs and there is no need to argue about here as the market and time will prove if it is good or not. As for the need for AWD. Please if you can't drive RWD in the now you need to hand over the keys now. That is when driving becomes fun, steering witht he long pedal is one of the few things to look foward to in a messy winter.

Well what is so criptic?? If you look at the brake package it is from a high end Holden performance model as are the wheels. Now that is not to say it may not be available as it may later but your not going to get it on a $25K V6. You should expect a GXP or like performance model later that will give us more [LS3?] power, brake and wheel but it will be well north of $35K. The parts are at Holden and just need to be bolted on but they are not cheap. Just as the Charger starts in the high 20K range the SRT will cost you over $40K if you want to go real fast. As with any new model GM and Pontiac seldom give you the high end and performanc models the first year. Fiero GT second year, Trans Am GTA 3rd year if I recall correctly, GTP GP later in its life cycle, the GXP G6, Solstice GXP 2nd year and just this year and the new CTSV will be here in 09. You only need to be an observer of GM and Holden to have a general idea of where this car is going and what is possible. No matter what Pontiac has a good parts bin to pick and chose what perfomance parts they may want to use. With the Impala and Camaro coming I am sure more and lower cost performance items will be available. The concept of a world platform will give GM divisions many options and quick changes with use of parts from cars in other markets. Next lets see what the 2 door Holden will look like and hear offically if we really are getting it here.

The ISS is a problem and I also have driven several of the new W bodies with this very problem. I can fix it myself but few in the average public can do it and it does little for good will after warranty.

Here are some new photo's. The more I see the more I like. Torrent interior shot was removed

The one fact we can depend on is the Fbodfather has already made it clear the LS2 will not be in the car. It looks like some form of the LS3 will be yor engine. He also said HP would help make up any problems of weight as the car will have a 5 star rating and not use a lot of expensive materials to lighten the load as they would drive up cost. I think it is safe to expect at leat 400+ HP in a V8. Imagine the crys if it does not best the 327 HP the SS made in the 4th gen. The new Camaro will have to be faster than the Mustang but also it's any 4th Gen built.

Love the looks of the car, I am just not big on the scoops they just look out of place and if they are fake it is all the better to remove them. I can't wait to see it in person in Cleveland and give it good look in person before I make a final judgement. But so far I like it and hope the wheels and brakes stay with the production car.

Not mixing eras here just the Fact Pontiac claimed the rubber nosed 73-74 GA was a Euro fighter. They also made one factory wagon too since you failed to mention this too. Pontiac made several attempts at this in the 60's-70's 80's and 90's. The first, second and third gen GA's were all claimed to be Euro inspired and it is safe to say they were not very Euro in many ways. As a owner one of the few of the GP STE you can also attest it was not as Euro as Pontiac claimed. On Fuel Injection if you knew your history well you would know the 300 Mercedes in 1955 was the first mass produced fuel injection car. It was something Delorean saw and like as an engineer. He also got to work with it on the 57, 58 and rare 59 Pontiac's. He wanterd to bring this to Pontiac but GM stopped him as well as the other sport sedan items that were offered overseas but failed to show up till much later in American cars. As for pointing out fuel injections problems that is one of the most widely know things to most auto enthusiast over the years. I have played with enough 60's Rochester units to know that alone. As for GM getting inspired by Europe it goes way back to Harley Earl. Bet with your lack of history you did not know the grill from the 55 Chevy was inspired by a Ferarri at the Paris show that Mr Earl saw. He stole many an idea form his many trips over there as did many of the engineers like Delorean. The Fact is Delorean started and tried to take Pontiac in a more Continental direction and never go the support. Over the years Pontiac tried to do it with other models and never had the platform to pull it off. Now they have a real chance with the world platforms they will be able to use and it should help their image and sales. As for you hand brake question, show me a legitimate real Euro performance sedan that does not have one today out side the mistake they made in the Caddy CTSv. There are still complaints on that omission. You had better read the books I recomended. Not only are they a great read but they are filled with what, how and why many things were done at Pontiac. I think you would understand where I am coming from once you learn the facts from those who live the era.

You had better take a better look at your Pontiac history before you get to cocky. John Delorean tried to bring things to Pontiac in the 60's like Fuel injection for the average car, 4 wheel disc brakes on a sedan, overhead cam Engines V8 of which a inline 6 did make production and all inspired by Europe. John had a love of BMW and Mercedes that he want to bring to the US market. The XP400 was equiped with Cibie lights and other items found only on cars from Europe like overdrive and superchargers with side draft carbs. Check many of the Pontiac show cars and the Euro effect that seldom made production. Delorean loved Geramn cars and wanted to bring their effect to Pontiac. The Grand Am was claimed in the 70's [by Pontiac Not Me] as their answer to the Euro sports sedan/coupe. I even have a magazine [i believe Road and Track from 73] that even took Pontiac to task for such a claim by a head to head and comparing it to a Mecedes sedan. It performed well but never could match the much more expensive Mecedes sport sedan. Sadly by the time this car hit Delorean was already at Chevy and on his way out the door after making the Cosworth Vega. Hmm Willis I think Cosworth is from England and DOHC and Fuel injection here was also Euro inspired by the D man again. Hmm I see a pattern! Where Delorean went the Euro influance went. Pontiac again tried to sell us the STE as a Euro like Sedan of which it clearly was not. Even the J numbered cars were lifted as Euro. As for your Nova claim I see no BMW there other than 4 wheels?? As for the Granda and Caddy I am well aware of the styling claim but they never delivered handling or performance as Pontiac tried to do. Most of what Pontiac tried or wanted in the 60 was mechanical and turned down by GM. Just think if the GTO or Lemans sedan had got the 4 wheel disc and Michelin radials as Delorean wanted powered by a DOHC Pontiac V8. Even the lack of chrome was euro inspired at a time most car companies pasted as much on as they could in the 60's. Pontiac has long had a struggle with GM corperate of wanting to go more Euro when GM wanted more American. You don't think the GTO lifed its name from a Rambler do you? Even Wangers made up the GTO vs Ferarri GTO story for Car And Driver. The classic Story of a Royal Bobcat vs a Ferarri that was never tested at the same time. Pontiac and Delorean wanted to prove they could run with the best from Europe even in 64 with this juced up GTO Pontiac. Read Delorean's book "On a Clear Day You Can See GM" it has a lot of insite on his plans and Euro influence that were snuffed by GM. Also pick up Jim Wangers Glory Days. Jim is a little full of himself but has a lot of Pontiac history that is documented. As for the Americans knowing about Euro car they knew about them, every Vet in Europe in the 40's, 50's and 60's did. But could not afford many as most were privatly imported till the 70's. My father still regrets not bringing one of his cars back. Lets face it even Mecedes got a late start in the late 50 and 60 with Studebaker as their importer. That alone should have set them back a few years. Anyway the G8 will do well with those who would like the BMW concept but only have Acura money. Lets face it GM has not put the pressure on Pontiac with limited imports and only expanding them if needed. I think they feel gas will effect sales more than anything. and this is only the first step in many more changes at Pontiac. Their future is not riding on this one single car.

People who can't afford a BMW do count as they would be buying something other than a FWD GP or G6. A conquest sale is a sale taken from another company and they all count outside GM. The good news is their are more people who want BMW's than can afford them and settle for VW, Toyota, Chrysler, or what ever they can afford in the 20K-40K range. This is the meat of the market. GM has tried to sell Pontiac as the Euro sedan clean back to the late 60's. The 73-74 Grand Am was compared to Euro models and it is funny today to read those articals. They now have a true Euro like affordable sedan that can compete in its own price range and best the cars like a Charger that is anything but Euro like. We need to get real here BMW is not going to be losing sleep here but if one can make a BMW like car for the averge person they can increase sales from what it has been. If you don't believe in wanna bees just look at the many cars that try to be a Mercedes at a lower price. They may have not robbed Merceds sales but they did the styling cues and they are getting sales that others would have had if not for Mercedes envy. More cheap jewlery is sold than expensive just check QVC sales. The Koreans have Japan worried and they did it in steps. This is what GM will do if they make the right moves. GM is not going to win this war with one truck or one car but with a series of good smart moves and build from there. The Trucks, G8 and crossovers are a first major step to recovery. The first step is the easiest but the second step is more challanging to keep and retain momentum. GM now has momentum and their job now is to build on it. The momentum will require desireable models, fair prices and a high level of qulity in build and materials. GM is starting to do this and it is up to them to remain commited to it. It is not my opinion GM has momentum but the automotive press in general and they are the ones hard to convince of this. For what it's worth it is up to Caddy to steal BMW and Benz sales as they are becoming direct competitors.

Did anyone notice the 2008 Vette is going to have the LS3. I think you will find your HP there for a 2009 Camaro.

We all have complained for years how Toyota is precieved as high quality when the truth is they are not really that much better and worse in some areas. By pushing durability while improving initial quality is how you build this preception in the general unwash non auto minded public. We here know and understand that there are many half million mile trucks and cars from GM still on the road and while they may not always may look new they are running fine. I wish I had a dollar for every paint peaeling Barreta still on the road. If that is not good enough I can show you many W bodies still on the original tranny and engine with over or near 300K miles. Though they have not made them for years there are many still on the road here in the rust belt still racking up miles. This is not always true for many Honda's and Toyota's that proved to be too expensive to maintain or were destroyed by our winters and roads. They do share many high milage cars but no where near as many as some would like you to believe. Most people that put the 100K miles plus on are the second and third owner. Now the original buyer is and will look at the high mileage car claims and feel he is getting a better car because it will go a quarter million miles even if he only plans to drive it till the 3 year lease is up. You have to sell your products ablitiy to the general public as it adds to precieved value and quality. It is not how good you are but how good they think you are. Now that GM is addressing initial qualtiy they can play it on the already know fact their cars remain in service for many miles and years. If I were GM would start a internet sign in book where owners can brag on their high milage cars. I have found many of these folks like to brag on what they have done. GM needs to give em a place to do it and use them in their advertising. GMs drivetrains have for the most part lived up to the demands. Now we are getting cars that should match the drivetrain and it is time those who don't believe learn the truth. If GM does not tell them no one else will, or did you really think Consumer Reports would? NOT!

The Charge is the real compitition but there are a lot of wanna be's who want a 5 series but only have a Dodge or Pontiac budget. They can buy the BMW used and expect a money pit in service problems or they can buy a new pontiac with a full 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty. As for the Charger and it truck like cues work well when it is the only 30K RWD in town but given compitition from a better looking more sporty car it will not look as so cool. The last GTO had better material on ther inside and better quality feel than the Dodge so I expect the new car will be as good or better. No Pontiac will not sell a lot of these to people who can afford a series but they will sell them to the many more who cant' afford a 5 series. The Purple Charger SRT in Detroit was god awful. It look like a sour Sweet Tart. Let's just hope GM refrains from the Judge stickers and stripes as we no longer need cartoon like cars. Beep Beep. I liked the Judge but it's time has come and gone. Oh and I think our friends north of lake Erie have little to worry about as this is a car intended for North American car not just American. It might be a year late but you should see this one.

Thank You! Now do we have anymore sane takers of reality here. Until you see the whole car with the hood open you can not know enough to toltally praise or condem this car. If you want to comment on the left front fender [we will give you the benefit the right is nearly the same] half the hood, part of the grille and the wheel/ brake your not making a informed fair statement. We all will know next week what this car has and can faily agree or disagree on it's future. We also may get a glimps into where Pontiac is going in the future as a division. One word about the future and that is don't expect the past to play a large part in todays car. It Pontiac is to gain sales and market they need to do many new things. This was done in Pontiac's past and while you may not get a Firebird or Judge the cars we get need to appeal to the market as a whole not just to long time Pontiac fans. So if you view this car do it with an eye of what a non Pontiac buyer would think not one of the too few present Pontiac owners or fan. Lutz only had a small pocket of money for the last GTO and no time to get the car to market. He did a hell of a job considering what little he had to work with. This car will be done with money and time and is not a repeat of the GTO. For those expecting a Retro Bonneville or 65 GTO it is time to let go of the ghost of the past. This car will be as new of a direction as the 59 Wide Track and 69 GP were. Thank you Blu as your statment sets a good fair path for this car. If the GM fans don't give GM a chance who else will? I just hope those here will follow your lead.

As have owned a 1990 GP and 2004 I can say to compare the first with the last is not a fair thing to do. The first car was ok but never a real market leading car. It was under powered, too heavy and poor quality. As for the present car I was not a fan but the wife wanted one. The more miles I have behind the wheel the more I love this car. If the interior was upgraded in the area of plastics it would be a fine car. Quality has not been a issue and it drive and handles great for a FWD car. Also you can't compare a GT to a Comp G or a GXP as they may be based on the same car but are two different cars all together. As for styling I have no issue with it and have been stopped by many to ask what kind of car it is. The key in the looks department are the SPO wing and 5 spoke Chrome 17" wheels that fill the wheel wells. This is not my opinion but what many people have pointed out to me as to why they like my car and not many other GP's. I do agree with them and that is why I did buy the GP I have, also I got it for less than a G6. It is the details that make a difference in styling and GM needs to address these details in future models. If you can make a base car look loaded you going to sell a lot of cars. If the base car look like it is from a Enterprise lot no one will buy at any price. It is a shame the W we have today was not the car we could have had in 1990. It's time has come and gone and let it RIP. At least in the case of the GP it did it's job over the years. FYI: I am hearing the Monte is dead as of March. The lack of one at Detroits show was very telling with the GXP sitting in the Pontiac display.

Nothing FWD sells on a Pontiac lot over 35K. At over 35 The GXP was a good car but in that price range too many others offer RWD. GIven the Choice I would pick RWD over FWD anyday. I will never pay more than 30K for any FWD.

Well lets uncover the rest before we get too critical. Uncle Bob is not perfect but he is no fool. This car will work well in the end when all is said and done. The important thing is to let Pontiac roll out is plan of what they plan to do and get the whole picture as this is only one car in the big puzzle. Just don't try to compare the new Pontiac to the past as it's time to update Pontiac to compete with the other companies not just Chevy.

If I recall this is the first factory Vette named for anyone. How cool ist that! It is good to be Ron. I got to sit and talk to him a few years ago at Mid Ohio. He is not only a great driver but a great person. I think it is fitting he gets a Vette named for him. Well done Ron.

I just question a 3600-3700 pound car with 225 HP when you have most FWD sedan running around with no less than 250-260 HP anymore. I want like think my wifes V6 GP will be out run by a V6 Camaro. The Ford 500 sales are already paying the price of over weight and under powered and it is not even considered a sporting car. If near or at 275 hP I would consider a V6 Anything less than 260 HP no way in a Camaro. That is like the 2.5 4 banger or 2.8 V6 from 1982. They could not give them away. Too much weight too little power this is not a economy car.

All hail the Captain!!!

I agree! GM is being treated much better by the press of late while Ford is the new whipping boy for America. Even Toyota the company that could do no wrong is taking hits on the new Camry. Is this the start of a new trend? I think the new comback of a American car company would play good with the press and they will run with it as it will get people to watch or read.

Not sure what his hip deal is costing but I do not see it selling more cars. It is smearing raw meat on your kid to get the dog to play with him. It only last till the flavor is gone. If you make cool cars that people want they sell themselves. People bought PT Cruisers because they precieved them as cool not because Christen Slater went to see his parole officer in one. The Mini Copper sell itself on it design and performance not because 50 Cent did his first drive by in one. Also you need to be careful with this crowd. Your safe with a Lebron James or Tiger Woods but what are you going to do when 50 Cent gets busted for something? Or our friend Slater goes back to rehab? That is not an image you want your company to have. Many of these people are not stable or live in the real world. There once was a time GM dropped Tim Allen when it was found out he had been arrested for drugs. Before he was Tim the Tool Man he did a 4.3 Chevy V6 ad that was very good. GM got nervous and dropped the ad when it was pointed out he had a drug arrest in his past. Now they are courting people that are not on the way up in fixing their problems but people just waiting for then next arrest. What's next do we get Paris Hilton to due her next DUI in a new Z06? Or Pam Anderson do a new Sex video in a Chevy Avalanche? Though it would do a good job to highlight the Vesa Cab? If Toyota can sell a plain old Camey on interior size and reliability you would expect GM can do it with a great looking Malibu with high rated reliability at a value price. I agree GM's marketing Sucks as a whole with some small peeks of brilliance from time to time. This Hip deal is not one of these small peeks.

Well you can bank on the power output will be more than the Mustang in every comparable class. The V6 will 260-275 HP min with the V8 being in the low 430 HP to a limited edition model later with more than the Cobras 500 HP. Lutz will require this car to lead in HP against the Mustang and it will also help cover the extras weight added by keep the price low. The new line of engines we have yet to see will move the Chevy V8 to the next level in performance and economy. It will be very important that the Camaro is the leader in this class and not follow the Mustang in any catagory.

Gee, I know who you are and I though you still had a sense of Humor. So you did not get my bad pun following up your bad pun? :AH-HA_wink: We all got your point as it was not that deep, nor was mine. Lets let the joke drop as we do not want to leave anyone out or offended here. Neither of us are ready for a stand up act yet. Any how back to the topic at hand . I am glad the car has a good looking face and ponder if the front brakes are just for Chicago or will they make production on a GXP? I believe many of thse who were upset in the other post will be plesantly suprised buy the changes they have made to give it a modern Pontiac feel and look. We are not dealing with a 1973 Grand am trying to be a BMW or a 1984 STE trying to be a Mercedes for once.

Gee! Since when did CAPTAIN OBVIOUS get here?

GM is going to make a car tha BMW has not made since Bangle showed up. If BMW is not going to make a good looking lower priced BMW Pontiac may has well. If priced as expected it should do well and make it cool to own a Pontiac again. It should sell very well. Too bad John Z Delorean is not here to see where Pontiac is finally going. He wanted this kind of car in the late 60's.