hyperv6

I agree with your feelings but I just don't agree with your facts. If you want to prove me, the auto industry and the majority here wrong provide the true dollar figures and weight numbers per unit this can be done for. You will need to factor in the extra engineering cost, testing cost, validation cost, material cost, labor cost, etc. If all this would cost less than around $300 you would think every coupe out there would have it as what MFG would pass this price up as that is penuts. While the Convertible is a great vehicle folks went to T tops with little complaint. As the B pillar goes it is not a deal breaker for the mass majority. Most people buying this car have been born since the last hardtop was made and thye just don't care and never trun the ac of anyway. My hwole point is it ain't that easy or cheap and to prove me, Chevy, Ford, and Dodge wrong you just have provide accurate valid numbers that we have not seen yet. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

In their world you just bolt things on. If it was only that easy!!

Your points are worthless and only theory without hard data numbers to back them up. Just saying you would use the convertible parts just does not wash. Prove that it would not cost much in pure hard data and I will buy it. It may be easy and fun to run GM here but when the real game is on and you a$$ is behind that desk and on the line it is a whole other story. If you make a mistake your the one who will be remembered for killing the Camaro the second and final time. I am with you on I wish it had not B pillar but since the industry as a whole dose not provide a inexpensive hardtop and there has to be a good reason and not some cop out that it is all the accountants. Many fail to realize that even the fixed rear side glass adds to the strength of the car as does all all the fixed windows. They just don't glue them in just to keep the water out. It cuts down on the steel and added supports with a material already inplace. If the window is movable you add more steel and you add the bits to move the window and all add to the weight and cost. The only part of the accounting here is they are doing all to keep the price as low as they can and they have to look at every nut, bolt and bulb to keep cost in check. It was asked of a Camaro group once if the smell of leather in the leather interior was important due to the cost of the smell. Yes they pay extra to attain the specific smell for the leather in all cars. Cost on this car is that important that all things must be looked at. If you can't show the additional added cost of the labor and materials of the hard top over the post coupe you have no arguemnet. Just because they did it in the 50's and 60's also does not wash today either. They have much different standards today and other objectives they never had to meet in the past. Also the full frame cars of the past did not hold up as well as some of us like to think we remember. I grew up with a neighbor that owned a towing company and saw often how many of these cars just did not hold up well in the passenger compartments. The t bone in the side of a hardtop sedan often was fatal. While the old cars had great mass they were far from as advanced in the way they can crash today and still let you walk away. I should know having walked away once from a serious crash that in my old Chevelle would have been much worse. GM is doing all they can to make this as safe of a car at prices under $30K> They have to make hard choices and if they upset 10% that even notice the B pillar that is what they have to do. You can't please everyone only the majority. Finally with everything Lutz has given Chevy on this car do you think if there was anyway that he would turn his back on a Hardtop? He of all involved know classic cues better than all at GM. Here again you have to pick and choose because you can't have it all and retain cost. Add to the price you get more toys but you kill volume at a higher price. The only mistake GM has made it they should have put the pillar in the show car just to keep many from having unrealistic dreams.

Update: the ZR-1 did turn some laps in public at Laguna. The car was brought out in public with no fan fair and ran a few laps off for the crowd. Winding road has some photos as well as Motor Trend. There is some camo on the hood but you get the idea of what to expect. The car in ther youtube video look to be runnig very fast and the car looked to jump a little in the corners but it was on street tires and was at the limits. Note there was some camo in the rear window and it had what might have been a little diferent looks on the glass. Not sure what they were hiding.

Scott said that there would be a low powered engine and with the low cost of the starting price targeted a new version of the 3.5 could be in play. He stressed to me that engine power was not a factor to a large group of potential buyers and in fact some were intimidated by many of the performance engines. This leads me to feel there will be a very basic engine just to give all something to want. Just thank God they still don't have the 2.5 Duke around anymore. I would not want anyone to get any bad old ideas. As for the date more than anythig we both may be off as with unseen delays and the fact the plant is not even changed over yet anything could happen. The only reason I am sticking with Scotts date is I know he has good info as of this date and I have a real GM officals name I can put with it.

wWll if it is so damn easy to build a hard top that meets all the demands of cost, weight and goverment reg then why has no one under 50K have not figuered it out? If it is so easy lets see your real numbers. No vauge well will just use convertible parts answer will do. Give us these numbers. What is the rigidity/stiffness numbers of the chassie? What is the added weight? What is the added cost per unit? What is the gas milage penalty per unit? What is the crash score to meet the 5 star rating to keep insurance cost down for the average buyer? What is the added cost of the rear crank down window and other hardware to build it? There is a hell of as a lot more to this than just saying GM is copping out. To tell the truth to say that is more of a cop out as you give no real data and proof that it can be done. Talk is cheap! Give us some numbers. Once you have these numbers you better share them with GM, Ford and Chrysler as they have not figured it out either. :AH-HA_wink:

Sounds like a sweet ride!

Here is what was in the Pratt and Miller Hauler going to Laguna this weekend. This is for sure not a C6R. It might be interesting to if Chevy takes a few laps in a ZR-1 for the crowd before the race to show a little Street Power. I can only imagine what the Vette team may have cooked up so it may be worth watching. Also from our friends at Badboyvettes.com they got to do the graphics this week on the cars. The web sight is the unoffical racing fan sight for the team [i suspect many of the Pratt & Miller team members are on the site]. Any way the race team mascot Jake [the skull] is on both race cars this week. Jake is normally on the bumpers but he gets the whole car this time. If you have a chance take a look at their website at badboyvettes.com and see come neat racing action and appearal.

Gee the sun came up today and by the end of the model year the G8 will be sold out. The 2009 will have a manual to make happy the minority of those who that will buy it and life goes on. Ok now that this disaster has been averted lets move on to the next problem. Ok, How many here already don't think the new Alpha platform is not Pontiac enough?

Oh good a real sane poster. The Kool Aid Drinkers Society was getting a little too self indulged in their pity. To bad they will miss the good old days as they are right now! Yes I just can't pin what they may do but they have to have something cooked up? Could it be a Concept in SS trim? I feel they will give us a little more glimps but still keep us wanting. I see you too understand Scott speak and what he does not say sometimes speaks volumes. The 3.6 is tomarrows Small Block Chevy. We have not seen anything close to what this engine will do. Also in the numbers it will be built in the cost drops way down per unit cost. One thing I was told was the 320 HP 3.6 was not Supercharged or Turbocharged. This should negate any problems with high gas prices as it will have performance and economy in one package. The question is with GM putting so much into the V6 will we get a lot of aftermarket support for it right from the start? GM has already made it clear the Camaro will be heavily supported by the performance part division and aI would expect they also have given some lead time to the aftermarket companies. I am glad to see you are a Scott follower as he is the guy to watch and read. Start reading the Cheryl Pilchers Interviews as it will give some insight on what is up. She know what to do and will get it done. She is the one beind the Z06 Vette and the lead in to the C6. She and her Husband also a Chevy brand Manager are real car people and not accountants. They are both like Scott and love their work as real car fans.

Offically at this point nothing has been said. It has been mentioned but the Impala concept will be there. I just have a gut feeling we might see a production based custom. Think along the lined of the 02 G Force GP. It was stock body panels but with bigger wheel flairs, spoilers and such. But again nothing offical has been said yet. Just note we are on the brink of a media war between the Challanger and Camaro. With the new Dodge coming to Chicago and SEMA I suspect Chevy will not let it go unchallanged. As for the B pilllar it is time to move on as it is there and it is not the end of the world. We all knew it had a 90% chance of being there. GM had to make a tough choice between cost and weight vs pillar and they made the right choice for the majority. You can't please everyone. I could see the negitive posts if this car came in at 4100 pounds and well into the 30K price range for a V6. The post would far out number the few that are not willing to accept the B pillar. If it could have been done easily and cheaply it would have been done but even large companies like GM can't always pull the rabbit out of the hat. As for the B pillar the case is closed and it is time to move on.

In lines are nice but they are difficult to package in many different cars where a V6 will fit in all of them front wheel drive or rear wheel drive. It becomes more a case of economics.

I saw your post On Sept 15 GM's Scott Settlmire told me in person that the production line would start up in the 4th quarter 08. He also in person told me that the cars would be expected in the dealers by Feb 09 as 2010 models not just starting production. He restated this same info yesterday on Camaroz28.com It is not a point of if I believe you or not as I have no idea where your info came from And I know you often have good info. But Scott has been spot on on his info for the last few years on the Camaro . Being the general manager of the Chevy Show division and the past manager of the F body program gives him a good chance of knowing what is up. Sorry this time I tend to go with the info with a name tied to it of a creditable GM offical. He also is the one who clued me in on the 2 V6 and 1 V8 engines I posted about 6-8 months ago. Your post was more a confirmation that nothing had changed since my first post of this info. Scott did say nothing in the plant has been changed over yet and there always can be a delay but the time line stands for now. In the end we both could be off and the car may not come in till May if there are problems. Per Scott The cars built in late 08 will be pilot cars with a slow transition to production. He said this will be a slow start up as they want it right the first time. As for the engines I was told last spring all three were not in any production cars yet. At that time the LS3 was not out and the 3.6 DI was not out. This leaves the base engine up for grabs? I am not so sure it is the 3.5 or it could be some other updated version. I was told to expect around 240HP on the base engine and last spring the 320 HP V6 was quoted as being a real possibility. I have not heard that number anywhere else but considering the scource I will trust it. I was also told most of the first cars will be V8 models so I will expect SS models will be the first ones to roll out and a slow roll in of the V6 will soon follow. Scott said a great deal of importants is being placed on the V6 Camaro's so I expect both will offer different things to different buyers. Lets just sit back and see what happens.

Look at the picture and you have your roof answer already.

Neither are what I would term Hi perfromance. The numbers I was told are north of 300 HP for the higher V6. At one time I heard 320 HP may be possible. Neither the Challanger or Mustang offer anything like that. Good gas mileage, lower price, lower insurance and maybe lower weight? will make this a appealing option to those who can afford the V8. Also it make for a good daily driver. Keep in mind folks how much power the Grand National made was below what we are expecting for this optional package. It looks like the middle ground Camaro will be as good as the last SS was.

Contrary to what some have posted in other threads this car is going to be as close to the concept as the Solstice was to it's concept. Unless they are side by side only some small differances will show. Keep an eye out for post from Scott as he is giving some info now and what ever he says is good as gold. I still think we may see a preproduction bodied car with some custom tricks at Detroit. I have heard nothing offical but I can't see them not giving us a teaser. That is not like GM to pass it up with only the Impala. Note the starting date is still late 08 and Scott told me a few weeks back we should be good yet to see the car in dealers by Feb 09 baring any future delays. The earlier post of production starting in Feb 09 were bogus. By the way your B pillar will be something like this. The Bumble Bee Camaro is a good indicator of what to expect.

Has nothing to do with racing. It has more to do with the Ralph Nadar type lawyers of the world.

By the way these photo's are planned releases to counter the release of the Challanger pictures. GM does not do thinks like this my accident! Note how well posed this photo was to cover some details. You have to leave them wanting more. Expect more in the near future to counter any news on the Challanger. The gates of info are just starting to open, so enjoy the ride.

Here are some facts on the Camaro from F bodfather. These are facts you can take to the bank. F bodfather Scott Settlmire speaks: Finally -- a word about the recent blogs out there -- Yes-- the Camaro will have a key. (versus pushbutton start) Yes -- it will be a model year 2010 -- but we have not moved the 'start-up' date. We'll start building Camaros in the 4th quarter of 2008 -- and they'll be in dealerships in the first quarter of 2009. Yes - the new Camaro will have a B-pillar. BUT - it isn't noticable from the outside. Think of a first gen with the rear window in the up position. The rear window will cover the B-pillar and there will be a weatherstrip attached. The B-pillar is necessary for several reasons -- the most important being: >reduction of mass >structural rigidity .....and, I think we're safe in saying this: The production car is so close to the concept -- that if we were driving down the road in a production Camaro coupe in Silver -- and you passed us going the other way -- you'd swear it was the Silver concept. The Future just keeps getting brighter and brighter! Ed Well born showing some love to one of his children. This photo is on Fastlane blog of Ed hugging the 2010 Test mule in production sheetmetal. This is the same car Lutz drove and told us about. Yes there will be 2 V6 engines the first year as well as 1 V8. 1 V6 is for the buget minded price buyer and the other is a economical performance car. Yes this second V6 will rival the last gens V8. The V8 is the LS3 [like it was a big seceret]. I spoke to Scott on the V6 and he said they found many buyers wanted a lower performing economical V6 just has the Mustang sells in great numbers. They find many of the Female drivers don't care for a lot of power and just was a good running sporty looking car. He said many are intimidated by high HP. [must not have spoken to my wife]. Agree or not this V6 formula is the biggest selling model for the Mustang and is what the 4th gen lacked.

If you want to save manuel trannys teach a kid to drive one.....today!

Not a big fan of this car but I will never say it is a bad looking car. My only complaint is too heavy and I don't anyone will disagree with that. Either way it is a big jump ahead of the Mustang in styling. I just prefer the Camaro in Size and shape a little more. The Camaro is not going to change much more than the Challanger did with a B pillar, Mirrors, Wheel size and a few dimentions that few will know changed other than to get a tape measure out. Styling is subjective and none are better than the other it is just what you like. The advantage the Camaro will have is weight as it will beat this car by a few 200-300 pounds. I know you can add a bigger engine to combat the weight but it still takes it's toll on handling and stopping distance. But I know Chrysler was stuck with the LH platform on this round and we can only hope the next platform will free up some weight. I know may cry for Manuel Trannys but so few are sold anymore. Add to that so few people know how to drive them too. I wonder how much longer it will be and they will be gone. Even Ferrari is mostly semi manuel now. Better get one while you can.

Migth take a look at the airdam on the G8 in the recent Motor Trend Nov Page 99. While it is a Middle East Holden/Chevy note the airdam. It is quite unlike the others on the next page. It is close but not identical to the Commodore. Could this be the GXP airdam? Either way for all those who don't think the present car has enough pizazz, the GXP will show the GT was just the standard model and never the sport model. Kind of like the GP GT it was just the average model.

The 09 Turbo is set for mid year as a 09 or at least that was what I was told by the Lordstown worker. With that being the case look for it around March.

I can respect it if you don't like the car. I guess what gets to me is trying to say it is just not Pontiac enough. That was like the last GTO not looking like a GTO for some. The problem is there are 11 different ideas [or model years] of what a GTO can be. The same can be said on the new Pontiacs that are coming. Too often on this site we all think with out hearts and not our heads when we see new designs. We have to consider all the factors and the fact the majority are not Pontiac fan. When the G8 was started many at GM did not even know if there would be a Pontiac by the time it reached market with the money problems and all. I may not be a fan of the G6 but I will never claim them to not be Pontiac enough. Sorry I did not mean to single you out with my comments. But once a comment is made a small group forms and jumps on the it not Pontiac enough love train and it was so quiet. I guess we are all the victim of Pontiac just not having a real true direction for so long that we are all on different pages anymore. The sad thing is this is only what is going to make it harder to try to satisfy the old Pontiac gard fans oe whats left of them vs starting in a new directrion in styling. It would not be Pontiac's first fresh start and it just maybe time for a new one to start today with the G8. When I spent a little time with the one G8 at work many there who were not Pontiac fans just were beside themselves at the new car. We were lucky to not only see the top but the drive train under the car. It made a great impression on many that were there. I also think you will be more than happy with the G8 when it moves north in a few years. Things will be a little different.

Ok, if you want to look at it like that. Hmmm what other car is a twin to the G8 sold in this country. The same logic should apply to this as you did to the Daewoo, so the G8 looking like a Holden should be a non-issue here too since the Holden is not sold here. You can twist the Sky and Solstice as much as you want. While they are not identical twins they are closely related twins all the same. At least the XLR got a different drivetrain than the Vette.