hyperv6

First off all of us need to stop thinking in todays terms for the 35 MPD as we will see new technology in lighter cars in power plants we do not have right now. Second the 35 MPG is a average so if GM can off set the Camaro with a good selling high mileage car or if the Volt becomes a reality as a common daily driver. we can come in a little under the average in a lower volume car. As for the V8. I see it in the car that is the top model that sells in limited numbers and you will pay the price to own one. Other we need to watch Ford and if they go with the duel turbo V6 that they are considering to replace the 4.6 V8 in the GT. If this car works it is a no brainer for GM to do the same. Even if you keep your V8 it is going to shrink to 4.7 liters and 150 HP less according to The Vette manager. The V6 is going to be the bread and butter do all engine for most of GM's vehicles. Combined with new technology and less weight in cars it should do well. Also I expect more development on the 4 cylinder that will go in many of the smaller cars to offset the milage on the bigger cars. It is more of the same game they play with Cafe today but with less weight and less power but still fun to drive cars being available. We will pay the price for any and all advances in technology and composits used. The unknow is the trunp card here as a lot of things will change while others stay the same. Carbon Fiber is more than a selling point for the ZR-1 it is really being tested to see what it will do in the real world and if there really is a future for it in the average car. There are many more things still on the table to be looked at. The 3.6 can be made into a 3.2 turbo and get more milage and even more power.

I expect something more profitable at low volume.

No 4 Cylinder. Two 3.6 V6 engines. one in the 250 HP range and a second in the 300 HP range One V8 would remain but it will be at 4.7 liters and limited. [Note Tom Wallace leader of the Vette program spoke the other day for ideas where the Vette would go and he said less weight less displacement but still fast and nimble.] One look at whar Ford is doing with the V6 and Tubo's I feel will be a trend. They are considering removing the 4.6 from many applications including the Ford GT and some F 150 wil little or no lose of power. Wight around 3,000-3,200 pounds.

GM has not had a wagon that sold well in the country since the Caprice wagon of the early 80's. Since then the Cavalier, Sunbird, 2 Saturn wagons [one based on the older platform the G8 is base], All the A body wagons. even the trio of B body wagons from the 90's died all to the lack of sales. Even Olds the wagon king of GM could not move them in it's final Decade. I think GM has given the wagon a good go in various forms over the years and even with the G8 Sport wagon being it's best effort I would hate to make the call on this one. If you expect sales of 5K the effort could be used in a project with a much better return. Even 40K units a year was not enough to save the Magnum. How much profit is there in a $30K car at 5K units with the exchange rate as it is? Now if they could build them in Canada on the Camaro line?? That may be a different story but I don't think that is possible since it is not a Zeta platform. The one thing we both fail at in our argument is the unkown info GM has not made public. There are some real reasons they have not and will not share that would explain this and prove us both wrong. They have the real numbers and projections. They have the hard data that we can only assume. IF there was money here Lutz would not miss the chance. Who knows what Bob has cooked up. HE shocked many with the CTS coupe in Detroit What may we see in a year from now we don't even know about yet.

60,000 Subarus are not much compared to like priced minivans of crossovers. Almost all wagons sold are either really cheap small imports or low to mid end luxury Euo wagons. Most sell in the single thousands of units at $40,000 or more. Wagons appeal is very limited to the point that most mid priced wagons have been removed. The Cavailer, Saturn many of the Ford and Chrysler models have all been removed from the market. A good reason is they were not making money on the limited number. We see more of these cars from Benz, BMW and Volvo because they all sell them in their home countries and can be sent here in limited numbers because they can be sold at a price high enough to make a buck. GM has to sell cars that appeal more than the East Coast and New England as those regions do not represent the buyers in the rest of the market. GM knows this as they do get out often. A Cadillac would sell at a price that would help make it more profiable just as the Volvo or like model. Also being built here vs down under with the dollar as it is will help the bottom line. At least at this point the ST is a no brainer as who else makes or sells a vehilcle like this in the States? THere is no compitition as of yet. There has to be something to this as even Ford has long condsidered the same for their ute and not their wagon. I have even seen the Fords in the States testing on Interstate 77. We as enthusiast have to take a step back and understand we are the minority here and the average buyer in this country do not care for wagons or manual trannys outside perfromance cars. Believe me I would love to see the G8 Sport wagon in a 6 speed manual but I would have a hard time finding a large number of non car entusiast who would also want one. Too many cry GM should make more manual tranny cars but the truth is in many cases how many would they really sell? Only something like 6-8% of all vehicles are manual today and the demand has gone down each year. I see the same for the wagon, if it is done with the right car it can make money and be sold in small numbers here. The G8 and CTS are the to best shots we have at selling this kind of a car. Between the two the CTS is the best to do the job right now unless GM has somthing they have not hinted at yet. The bottom line people like their trucks, SUVs, MiniVans and Crossovers. These are not the same people who would drop these vehicles to buy a wagon. It is not a AWD thing it is a space, features and sitting up high thing they like. Wagons just don't offer much more than s Sedan with a folding back seat. I agree with you on this is a cool vehicle and would love to see it, but I also keep an understanding the limited nature of this class.

The way I look at it. The sedans will sell as Pontiac has a limited number at a very cheap proce. the only car that sells in larger quanites are sedans. Wagons and Coupe have become the lesser seller. GM should not have a problem moving a CTS and G8 sedan but there are only so many people who want a wagon. With a mini Van or small SUV compared to a wagon. You get more utility and space, more passenger room at many times the same or lower price. Americans want untility and don't care so much for the car comforts or better styling of a wagon over a Minivan. Now in Europe it is the oppisite. they want the wagon in many more cases. They like the drive more than the below the floor storage. Lets face it the Magnum had little untility over my GP. I can carry a 9 ft ladder in my GP with the trnck shut at 140 MPH. While the Magnum can carry a little more it is not as much as a SUV or Minivan. My gut says GM would have liked to bring in the G8 sport wagon but they may have had a limited amount of cars they could afford to bring in. They may have thought the ST had a better chance at selling or they just wanted to test the market since the Magnum already showed the market for that car would bear only 30-40K units a year. Either way I expect there was a good reason for them not to due it as knowing Lutz he would have fought not to kill the wagon if he had a good reason not to. I also figure the CTS will start not much more then the G8 would have and to reach good numbers the caddy needs as little compitition as possible from with in GM. Besides most wagons in this market are upscale cars that the CTS would be better suited to challange. Also once you factror in the value of the dollar and that the Caddy may be built here and not be imported. Anyway that is just my guess but either way GM I am sure had a good unknown reason to use for not doing it right now. Future plans may be at play?

What the heck....We could always lengthen the front clip and stuff in the steam power plant from the experimental 1969 GP Pontiac still has. It needs a rebuild but I am game. At least Jay Leno would buy one.

Could there be more effort to sell a CTS wagon vs a Pontiac. With sales uncertin in Europe it is always good to know they can dump some of the overflow in NA. Holden will sell enough wagons to cover the expenses for their car but the Cadillac wagon may have a tougher sell and need more than one market to make it.

I agree with you on the Union as a factor. But will all the cars return including the Impala or will we only see a Caddy and Buick? I would assume they would go with the Zeta cars that are near complete. Lets face it the Alpha will not be avaialble for 4-5yeats top on a accelerated program. GM will need something to sell. Besides the 35 MPG is still 12 years off still giving them time to bring the Alpha to market to provide a better suited vehicle to deal with it. I just don't see much more development on the Zeta as why put money in the heavy platform when it could go to the new platform. What they have can carry them into the future for 5-6 years and not go stale. I do see some models may not come back like the GTO and Monaro as a Camaro in place can be built and exported with little effort. Scott Settlmire made a point to say the Camaro was going to be exported. He did not say to what extent but this one car could do the duity and add many more cars to the Camaro line if they do lose the Impala for good. I think Scott made a point to say export as it will amount to much more than what they have done in the past. Remember Chevy is now a world brand. If one would just figure exports to Europe, Austrailia, Middle East, China, Even a hand full to south America and Japan the numbers could add up. I know they would not go to all thsoe markets but they are viable and open if needed. Also what can be salvaged from Zeta for future product. Can some be adapted to larger Alpha models? Can new Pick Ups be based on this platform? I see even some love volume cars from Cadillac still living on Zeta after 35 MPG as not all Cadillacs will get 35 MPG. At a low volume and higher price they can get away with some larger cars. In their case it is expected. It will be interesting to see what GM settles on as at this point nothing is in stone and anything can still happen. I can say we will see product development like wh have never seen from the auto makers in the next 12 years. I can promise you we will see more new models and new kinds or types of vehicles we never expected to ever see. Many will be driven by drive trains with technology unthinkable 5 years ago. and most will be made of materials we never though possible for the average car buyer. All the cards are on the table.

Kind of like a reflection of what ills much society anymore. To many people thinking of themselves behind a keyboard or steerring wheel and too often not respecting others. In the old days before when everything was done face to face someone would be taking a swing. Those of us on this web site have often disagree and take sides but we also know when to back off and give some space. Those in the past who like to irritate or bully have moved on. I don't care who you are what or who you know there is little space here for borish behavior. That is what makes this web site better than most out there. Because of how informed most here are and the respect we give is why C&G stands out from all of the other sites.

I thought the Top kick and Kodiak were sold or being sold to Navistar. I was just speaking of the one ton duelly.

I think the full frame is stronger preception and the fact a full frame is cheaper to make? I see a need on the full size one ton truck for a frame but in a half ton I can see it working today. We are way past the bent F100 trucks of the 60's in technology. The only trick is to make it strong but still keep it light.

For what it is worth the early press review of the preproduction cars like the interior and the car. They even commented on the great amount of room in the back seat. I think it was in Autoweek? or Car and Driver? back in December. They went up Palomar and commented while the car is not perfect it was excellent for its price range . They said any little nit picks could be over lookded due to the price being so far under it compititon. I am waiting for the Apirl full reviews of the car in the main line publications. As for the preproduction test they said it was the best Pontiac ever with 4 doors. Like the car or not many will in the general public.

Just trust Rick and Bob at this point as they have made few misakes compared to past leaders. We should be glad in this time of change we have them and a very empowered staff of engineers at GM now. On the other hand I would hate to be Chrysler.

The way I see it Lutz has not given up on RWD. His comment have not made it a sure thing but I expect he is fighting for the Alpha. The problem with Zeta is weight. If Alpha can be made expandable in wheel base and width it can pick up where the Zeta left off. We would lose most V8 options or if there is they would be made smaller like a 4.7 V8 as Tom Wallac pointed out. The plus side is these cars could still be good in size and give us a lighter better handling package. Collin Chapman showed us long ago if you can make it light you can make it fast and fun. The CAFE is the averge so there will still be room for some larger cars. Where I see the most work being needed are the truck lines and Malibu size FWD cars as they are the Volume cars that need to improve the most. I see the key as more composits and aluminum in the cars. Lutz has said the price of each car would grow $6,000 and I don't think he was speaking of just hybid technology but more expensive build materials. The big key will be Unibody full size trucks and the increase of new smaller trucks. The small truck that nealry has faded away will be back on the front burner not like it has since the S-10 arrived. I ponder if even a small truck could be added to the Alpha platform, unibody and all?

Ahhh but you do hate Holden.......! I for one do not enjoy most of what you post. It is not often the content but the delivery. Some of your post come across like a 16 year olds taunt. It is not that anyone hates you but it is the tack you take and the fact you tend to rub things in. Many of use have been here for years and do not always agree but we do try to show some respect to the other guy by not rubbing it in [such as your anoying tick tock]. It is best to make a statment and leave it for the others to comment then properly respond with respect for the other guy opinion or ideas. Most people here are as informed on the web about GM as anywhere. If you go to GM iside news they are still begging for cars GM made clear long ago they were not going to build. Some there have littl idea how GM or the industry as a whole works but here most have a good grasp. Some who are lashing out are good people but they can only get pressed for so long before they push back. As for your insight I find many of your post read like a horoscope. Something bad is going to happen or something great is in the future but little substance. Your are very good at the non comment prediction. As for coming true much of what you have posted is either already true and posted elsewhere on the net or like the prediction Pontiacs death. Your not really sticking your neck out there as you have a 50% chance of being correct at the worse case. If you know something say it and give some good reasons why or when. If you don't have that or can't say to back it up your better off not posting it. I find that many times many can post half as much as say twice as much. It is not a game to see how many post you have but what substance you say it with. As for the I work for GM Know all and see all ideas. Share them if you can and if you can't you for your own sake you are better off not saying anything at all. The comments of "well what I am working on is great but I can not tell you" really mean little to most of us and if true only puts you in a bad way with GM. It is best that if you do wotk for GM and can say it all just don't say it. It is best for You GM and the rest. I am not trying to say anything here to run you off or offend and I hope you understand where I am coming from. I for one do not see a need to ban here. Just work with us. I just ask for you to show a little respect and you will find most here will give it back in kind. We have had people here much more anoying before but once they settle in with the group and connect things went very well.

If your wanting us to think your as insightful as you want us to believe than you know this statment is full of crap. The Aztec fail due to the angry appliance look and nothing more. I knew from day one as did most here the styling was a wreck. But I can say I never heard anyone say it was dull and boring in the styling department. We all sit here and cry for GM to go into markets with new and different idea's to gain market share or new trends. Well boys we have one here. For all the investment it is a low risk deal and if it works great and job well done GM. IF this project fails GM is not out much as it has already done most of the investing in Austrailia. Also the future is going to be small trucks again as there is and will be a renewed intrest in this market. Between fuel cost and CAFE this market has to be explored again. We will see things in the next ten years that we never though they would do. The G8 ST would be a good test to see the public reaction to a car/truck hybrid again. We don't know how the market will recieve it as no one here really has done this for years. For GM not to bring this car is would be a failure to try at what we all ask them to do. Besides till Pontiac is sorted out one way or another one more vehicle in the show room is not going to hurt. This will give GM an idea if this kind of concept merit and it is worth more investment in the future. Better this now on the cheap vs some expensive failed experiment later. Bottom line is GM will sell all they bring in since they are not going to do it in large numbers. It will tell them what they need to know. It was a simple no brainer for Lutz for the dollar exchange rate that has been out of control of late.

There was no work version before and no need for one now. Many Construction company owners like their Caminos and bought them loaded. The bed was there just to carry what they needed and not be saddled with a full size truck. But on the other hand full size trucks or SUV's back then were not as nice either. The Camaino has to be compared to a loaded Colorado. That would price them very close. The Camino diappeard due to the increased sales of the S10. What would be interesting is to see how the younger people under 40 years will take to the new car since they were never offered anything like this since they have been driving. The action life style would be the way to market this. How about the offical Vehicle of the X games and put a Bike in the back.

The V6 is a important player as many El Camino's were used as work vehicles int he past. They were used by many managers on work sites for light hauling when it was needed. We still have a few in this area with names on the door. I myself want to replace a Sonoma ZQ8. I only drive it because they discontinued the Camino. It is as much a car as it is a truck. I refuse the Colorado as it is a pure piece of junk with the interior it has and the poor styling. The SSR was a failure brcause the Damn thing was $45,000-$50,000 dollors. If I wanted to pay that much for a 2 seater It would be a Vette. IF the SSR had been $25,000-$30,000 new I would have looked at it. But there is no Chevy truck worth $50,000 SS Silverado or SS Trailblazer included. I think if GM had to do this car from scatch it would have been a poor move as if they sold all they can It is like the Magnum wagon and has a limited base of 30,000-40,000 Buyer. Now if it has to come in form someplace else and most of the work is already done it is a no brainer to bring it in. GM had little to lose as little is invested. Little risk involved here. As for it being a Pontiac vs Chevy. It could be a Saturn for all I care as long as it is good looking and available I will go to that dealer. At least at Pontiac it will get more attention and not get lost in the crowd of the many models at Chevy. The ideal choice might be Chevy but at this time it is not the best choice. Pontiac needs product and Chevy does not. If you really like this car enough to buy it You will not be upset because it has been so long since you could buy this kind of car/truck. If Ford brings in their UTE it could put a lot of focus on the this class of vehicle and what better than to have GM be the first to fire a shot vs being a few years behind like on the Camaro. If Chevy had a good small truck the ST would be a very hard sell but as of now Chevy does not have a good small truck.

What I said is I own a GP and the G8 is better. Some one else who post a lot but say little and hates anything Holden is the one who said it was not any better. I will let you decide who is the one is less subjective. It also is not just the plastic they used in the GP but how and where they used it. I accepted my GP interior because I got a new full loaded Comp in 04 for $10,000 off sticker. I could not get a used car that cheap. Now if I had paid a higher price for a GXP with the same if not worse dash I would have tried to cover my mistake. As I am a GP owner I will tell you to bust all you like because it is a honest statment of the GP. What few also at stating here is you also get what you pay for. If you get a base V6 it will not have as nice of an interior as the higer price car. The car I saw was a GT and it was every bit better than the GP.

It is as I own one and been in the other. The only reason I bought the GP was the Supercharger and the $10,000 off the sticker. I paid less for my new GP than the GM employess bragged about paying on the GP site. The money off made me over looke the interior. At least my Comp G inteiror did not have that horrible dash of the GXP. It may have looked good in the TA but not in the new GP.

What part of [ on the back of a semi] did you miss? GM had a semi/flatbed trailer with the concept and a 69 Camaro both on back as they drove by well timed.

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK...... RING RING RING. THERE HERE! THERE HERE!!!!! The new Pontiac has arrived so let the selling begin.

The G8 ST was off the screen for me as a V8. I need a new daily driver and with gas prices as they are the V6 is waht I was looking at in the Camaro. Now with the V6 on the table with the G8 ST I may have to take a good look at it now. This is replacing my Sonoma ZQ8. If I got a Camaro the Sonoma was going to stay as a hauler. Now if I get a ST I can sell it off. I really want a small truck but refuse the Colorado because cheap interior. If this was a weekend toy it would be a V8 all the way. I just have to have a limited slip diff for winter driving I have it in my present truck and it drives like a tank in the snow. Besides I still miss my 1972 GMC Sprint SP.

I am have said for a while Pontiac needs a Mini beater to go with it's new True Euro like cars. Dump the G5 for this car and leave room for a Alpha G6. I see Pontiac doing well with 4 lines of cars and a few variations of each. Leave the bigger cars like the RIv for Buick. The bottom line is it has to be fund to drive and cool. This can't be some glorified golf cart!.