hyperv6

As a present owner of a 2.0 DI turbo I have a good idea of what this engine can so. In a HHR SS I can see 22-24 MPG with spirited city driving and Highway milage of up to 31 MPG on some trips in a 3200 pound vehicle with automatic. Also premium fuel is not required. These engines are just like the Series III 3800 SC. Thwy will run on regular with a small loss of power. I know the 3800 SC will lose about 20 HP . I am not sure on the Turbo as I have only run one tank on it once just to see the effect. It was minor at best. I have stayed with premium just for te extra boost. But if one chooses to run regular it is fine and will not kill overal performance or damage the engine. Some say you can't but GM says you can and if they are holding the warranty for 5 years I will take their word. With the future as it is the 3.6 is out in the G6 as all your goiing to is one of GM's 4 cylinders. I also have seen GM will up the size and power on this engine and if what I saaw was correct we may very well see a 300 HP 2.1 Tubo in the G6. I have only seen one thing that said that was the plan so at this point I can not confirm. The one thing it does need is a 6 speed tranny. The 4 speed is tuned well to work with it but after some real wheel time in a Malibu 3.6 6 speed I can see that this engine would love this tranny, The problem is it will not fit the present Delta platform. For GM's future I see what has a 6 cylinder will be a 4 Turbo and what is a large 6 or V8 will be a V6 soon. The V8 will be around but in limited models at best.

If they want this car right give the GXP to the GM Performance Division and stick the new LNY 2.1 Turbo Eco in it. If this car ran like a Cobalt SS it might get a little respect. Better to be a contender than a pretender.

I just don't see it as a knee jerk deal. I see it as a way to take money from a division that is damaged and spending a lot of money on with little results. I would rather see it using the money to save the rest of the company. Right now it is like seeing you Grandfather dying from cancer. You hate to lose him but the doctors are not doing much to save him. I hate to see him suffer and remember him as he was not as he is. I would rather see Pontiac on hold before they are tarnished anymore than they already have. If they can bring back the Camaro they can bring back Pontiac too. The bottom line is I just don't see GM having the money to fix Pontiac right and the damage they will do will make it impossible to save them later. That is if there is a later. We can debate models here all we want to save the company. But the problem is we are not GM and they are not getting it done. Also We don't have to pay for it. I think that is what is holding things up is there just is not not enough money for divisions like Pontiac that are now just a small part of the big picture. Now if Pontiac was sold world wide that would be a different story. I think the time is coming that most if not all models will have to be sold world wide in some form or it will not be sold at all.

Camaino I respect and welcome your replies. You have a right to say what you want and yopu may even change my mind if you can present a good case. That is the way it used to work around here. Anymore it is a few opinions and a bunch of Pandering yes post. My veiw is GM is having trouble getting just 2-3 divisions right. How are we to expect them to fix two other divisions when they don't have the money to do it let alone do it right? You know me enough that I would really hate to see Pontiac go away but I would even hate it more to see GM go away. Right now I want them to save the corperation more than just a division that they have not done much to help in going on how many years now. Pontiac needs a major overhaul and they just don't have the money to do it right at this time. I would rather see them put Pontiac on hold get the GM house in order and reintro Pontiac with the right products and right image at a later time. It is no longer about division, being #1, or fun cars it is all about making money. Right now Pontiac has lost me as they do not offer anyting I want. I may buy a G8 for the wife if they are still around but it is too soon to tell. The Solstice is a great car but two seats. Also the G8 ST is great but Two seats. As for the rest of the line up they can have it. The G6 pales to the Malibu. I have a good amount of time behind the wheel of both and have a good insight on each. If I want as Toyota I would buy a zToyota not a Vibe. The G5 if offered with a Turbo would be a hit but only one was built at Lordstown where they showed me it would stay till it is distroyed. Fixing Pontiac right now is like fixing a old house. It take a lot of money to do it right. IF you don't do it right it may just burn down and take the rest of your tings with it. Sorry for being negitive but GM just has taken to long to fix them and right now GM needs fixed first. I don't expect you to agree but I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Now stop that! You have to stop thinking as enthusiast and start thinking as a share holder looking for a profit. Lets face it Chevy and Caddy are the only NA brands targeted as world wide brands. Saturn could be renamed Opel here and it may or may not worl but the cost to try is little. Buick is not amounting to anything outside of China and Pontiac at this point has little appeal to anyone out side a G8 or Solstice. The money it would take to fix Pontiac is just not their unless you just rebadge cars. I would be happier if they parked Pontiac till they can fund it right vs tarnishing it with a rebadged Aveo or a new nose on the Camaro. I would rather lose 2 legs vs my life. Somtimes you just can't have it all. The bottom line is to make money and all the finger pointing and reshuffling products are just not cutting it. Many here have said for a long time GM need less divisions and models and I am sad to say I know now they are right. I have placed my first choice to see GM saved vs just saving Buick and Pontiac. If we lose GM what good will saving Pontiac be? Let GM bring back back a Buick or Pontiac right at a later time when they can do it right and with a clean sheet of paper. I am not saying this for a argument but after a long look at all that is going on> I have also spoken to many people in the industry. Many of them would have never felt this way now are. Thy just as I see no other way out.

At this point I would be shocked if this deal was anything more than Cerberus just wanting GMAC and trying to work a deal with GM for some assets or investment in GM by Cerberus. Cerberus is already trying to sell the Viper. What else could they be selling or offering that is of any value to GM? Money or investment is really all GM would really wants from Cerberus. I suspect Cerberus may sell off Chrysler part by part as no one wants them and they have become an even larger money pit. They have no small or mid size cars that are worth anything. The trucks are new but not selling. The Jeep wrangler and Mini Van are the only things they have of interest to anyone. How long till the vans are sold to VW and not just rebadged? With GM selling off their offces in downtown I can't see them taking on any liabilities from Chrysler and they have plenty. It will be interesting what this is all about let alone if anything even happens.

The state GM is in right now we can debate Pontiac and Buick all day but end up with only Chevy and Cadillac in the end. With the market as it is all bets are off and anything that is not easily sorted out can be cut so much eaiser. Pontiac, Buick and Saturn can turn Gangreen so easy right now that GM may jusr retire a name or two till they can get their house in order. Oh sorry that is for sales too. The biggest thing is how long will the economy take to recover? 6 months? A year? Anything over 6 months is dire for GM. It is more about saving GM NA today vs just saving a few Pontiacs and Buicks. Less models and divisions may be the only way out now.

I agree. Other than the Mini Vans and Jeep Wranglers Chrysler really has little going for it. Their mid size and small cars just are not on the map and even with new trucks if gas goes back up they will be sitting on the dealer lots. The RWD cars are not selling as they once were and their new electric cars really are noting special other than the Lotus that is mostly a halo car. I too thought about Daimler and their stake in this. I wondered how much input they have here. I expect it will take at least 6 months for the economy to make any improvement. That is based on what the treasury department is now doing with the bank buy in's and if it works. Now if it fails to stop Wall Street this week from plungging the whole industry will be in total arrest. In the end GM will make it as the goverment needs to preserve at least them and Ford. To manny other industries would fail if they do not prop them up. But the out look could be very different. I just pray it never comes to a British leyland type deal. We already have a goverment that can't run anything right and the last thing GM needs is a Al Gore type over seeing them.

Finally now your thinking!! I am shocked it took a couple post for you to figure this one out. They take cars that are to be scapped more often than you think and do some things to them. I once saw one car converted to be used in the plant for some kind of job that I don't recall at the moment. Also there is actually a G5 running around the complex with LNF Turbo engine and Cobalt SS wheels and options. The guy who told us said this is one that will never leave the plant. Infact one of the cars on the roof of the plant is a G5 body shell and the older Cobalt SS/SC wheels with the big Cobalt SS wing. Not something you see often.

This was not an error car and it was no accident. It had a G5 stripe that I had never seen and it also has the GM special edition emblem like they use on the HHR Shadow Edition. There were a few other details they had added. Either way it was clear from our guide this car was not an accident and it was just something they did in plant. To be honest it had trim part that were not on any other car I saw in the plant or any Cobalt on the road. So sorry no glitch here. Either way it was not that great of a trim package. Now the 09 SS sedans looked good with the larger wheels. By the way do you think GM managment would permit unwashed outsiders like us to come in and touch cars, parts and engines on an assembly line? Yes we were seen by the plant officals and they never said a word. In fact they waited till we were done.

I got to go to Lordstown today and was hoping to get the VIP tour only to find the Body Shop and the End production line Dyno's working. They rushed us into the Body Shop to see them in production before they shut them down today. The assmebly line was already down. It was kind of a bummer till they let us check out the car at many of the prodution line stations. We got to get right on the line and get some real up close looks at various steps on the line. That was cool and something we would have never got to due if the plant was up. Kind of nice to have the run of the house! Lordstown is hurting for engines out of the NY plant that was damaged in the Ike winds storm that trashed the central U.S. This is some very bad timing with GM selling a lot of Cobalts and not being able to build them. Kind of like the luck they have been having of late. Even if GM has something that is going right something always seems to happen even non self inflicted. Oh yes we even saw a rare Cobalt with Pontiac G5 trim and special edition emblems there. It is nice to see they still can have some fun in the trim department. Our guide said they still like to mess around once in a while with one of the cars.

It would be a great Nox replacment.

Well from what is heard too it is not coming here. As for the HHR replacment I have heard from many HHR people who whould give it a consideration. There were a few who liked it but not many. This would never sell in the numbers the HHR presently sells in. It would make a better Vibe replacment. At least it would be GM/Daewoo based vs Toyota.

The Camaro is the best we will have anytime soon for this class. TI will do well for the time it has but it will not have the overly long life other Gens have had. When work started on this car it was perfect for that time but who knew gas was going up and Wall Street was going to tank back then. Timing and luck have not been in GM's corner of late. The fact is this is a good car and GM did do the right thing in putting a lot of pressure on the V6 car. If they has put 90% of their work into the V8 like the past this whole thing would have been a mess. The V6 will save this and let it live till a Alpha is ready. This is the best Camaro for this time as it is the only Camaro your going to get for a few years since Alpha is a ways out yet.

As I under stood GM fromt he start this never was to recharge till plugged in. They said after the battery runs dead the engine runs the electric motors like a train. The small engine would be at a constant RPM and supply electric to let the car continue at a sfficent MPG rate. GM's concept was most people drive to work daily drive less than 40 miles rounds trip. In this case mose owners would never get to the gas in a weeks commute to works. I think many just assumed it recharged. GM said long ago the engine was much like the train engine technology they have built for years.

At the Pontiac nationals where I showed this year I was shoick at how many collectors and restorers feel Pontiac is on the way out. They too are like those here and few could agree on what direction to save Pontiac other than something different than what they are doing now. This too make one think much the same is going on in GM right now. The old game for years is what GM wants vs what Pontiac wants and guess who wins. Note GM has cut support to many events I Judged ot attended this year. The Pontiac event did not get even stock factory cars on display this year let alone anything from the historic collection. Pontiac supoport was small nylon back pack left over from a NHRA event. Things are looking worse all the time.

I am not a fan of this car but Pontiac has had it share of boring cars over the years. Not all were the ones most remember. The question is in todays market is there anyone who will buy this one? How can they make this a better car to compete with anything other than a Aveo?

I will call truce if recipricated. I think you may have misunderstood where I was coming and I did not explain it well enough. Some of us here know more than given credit for at times.

Pontiac while in recent years has been a Chevy based has tried to break free. The problem is it was always limited and done on the cheap as in program wise and usally was low in numbers or just failied. The Fiero was a good way to help set Pontiac appart but was never funded properly. Pontiac got in 1988 what they wanted in 1984. The Turbo GP Mclaren was a good idea just excuted poorly. The STE AWD again a good idea on the cheap. The SSEI was a good car with the wrong wheel drive. Pontiac did build a RWD V8 version but it never got past the mule car. The Turbo TA pace car. Something they should have done years before as a sister to the GN. The Aztec while a good useful vehicle it's styling killed it before it even came out. There are many other good ideas that were under funded or under suppoerted due to GM politics. Pontiac has tried but those at the corperate lever have just killed them at every turn. The sad part is I don't see thgat changing and with GM's money problems it does not bode well.

Thank you kind sir. I too look forward at minimizing the overly hair splitting fanatical historical bloviating in the future on these pages.

I can see GM is cutting back in areas you used to not see it. I never got a explantion of where they were [Could have been the NHRAS race. But Pontiac at the Pontiaqc Nationals did not have any reps or a display of any kind there this year and that is a first for a long time. Also I notices the sales books at the dealers for the 09 cars are only half the size as in the past. The Chevy books for the 08 vs 09 are cut nearly in half in size. I am judging one of the larger Camaro shows in the midwest today and Sunday and it looks like they have not recieved much support this year from Chevy. Last year they got the Bumble Bee for 3 days and nothing so for this year. I plan on going to the Glenmore Gathering next week where Wayne Cherry and 100 years of GM are feature. I am hoping they have sent a few cars from the historic collection in. Cut back may have hurt there.

No retraction just a clairifcation. At this point it is all has no bearing on todays problems at Pontiac. The pas it just that the past and it is time for some to remember and learn from it but stop living in it. I am done wasting space on this.

I have spent a lot of time with both Chevy and Pontiac and know how many of the part are the same, shared or interchange with little effort. In the 50's it was less and grew to what it became in the 70's and 80's. I will give you they were never identical or as bad as it became in the later years.

What was that Mr B Pillar. Before you toss out the term Ignorent you had better look at your own comments from the past. For a long time GM has has some sharing between the lines. As the 50's ended they sharing increases till it hit a low in the 70's. But we all know that. I have my view and balthazar has his and while I may disagree on some point I still respect his view. He can makes some good points without getting stupid. As far as I am concerned you were not adding anything here to what he and I were speaking on. If you have nothing positive or helpful to add then but the hell out.

GM could move the divisions to more independent models but they need to stop trying to make each division something for everyone at each division. IF GM only needs one be all division and that is the value leader Chevy. If needed take Buick, Pontiac and Saturn and combine them into one dealership and only sell models like the Opels and Holdens they already sell overseas. Let Buick offer the large near luxury car and let Pontiac only sell a few real world class tuned perfornace cars along with some HSV versions. Then let Saturn sell the Opels that are not copies of Chevy. Make all these premium cars and only sell 4 models per divison. THis would maintain all three brands and give them fresh product not sold by Chevy with out major investment and would also add to the non GM divisions sales. Kill GMC as it has out lived it's needs if truck sales remain tanked. The problem is not too many brands but to many models. GM has a world portfolio of cars we don't have that could bring a new face and look to the three divisions that need help. I know it is a over simple overveiw and a lot of near impossible details would have to be achieved but at this point GM really only needs Chevy and Caddy. Some majore changes need to be made to make the other three brand relivent again.