hyperv6

I am sure the Cruze platform is very streetable. the question would be is the Volt Drivetrain ready to make the run in cold weather. You would not want the press to find Rick on the side of the road with the Hood up. If they feel it would make it it is a good risk if the drive line is not ready there are other production cars that will fill in fine.

If Rick and Bob are on in a car and driving to DC then they may as well kiss any sort of public support away. If they want to make an effort to gain some support of America they better get out and show they are like the rest of us in the cars they want us to buy on the roads we have to drive.

Championships are nice but if the product is still lacking. It ain't braging if you can back it up. On the street the G6 is not backing anything up. It is a good but not great performer. It is not a performace car and it is not even the best GM car on that platform. You can't do a bait and switch in advertising. If you want to present a race car that is a winner you had better offer a street car with some real substance. Anyone can slide a tube chassie under a carbon body shell. AMC even raced Sprints in the 70's, that did a lot of good. The Solstice is the only legit Pontiac at present with any real race creed. It all comes back to product. No matter how you market it or make it look Pontiac needs better cars across the line other than 2 good ones they now have. Anyone notice if you have a very good product it often sells itself. With many of the products Pontiac is now selling even Billy Mays could not sell a G3 to a leg less man stuck in middle of the desert.

The OZ version is going down by the bow quick and the American version is going to go down stern first. They just don't understand what makes the show work is the stuffy British Humor. Be thankful they have not tried to do a American Monty Python.

I find spokesmen are effective to draw attention in a well done comercial. They are few but most recent the Sprint phone with Ozzy has been effective to get people to talk. It may not sell phones but it did get people to talk. lets face it people in suits don't buy M3's and M5's becsue many do track time. They do it because it make them feel "I am Bad, I am Cool I am the Breeze!" Even every nerd has a inner image that he wants to be seen as Dirty Harry. Every CEO and Company President wants to be seen as important as he feels he needs to be. Image is power. Just with what Buick has to offer it says I retired to Florida and can't afford a Benz or even a Caddy.

Your are correct only the newest and best high milage cars or hybrids need apply. I agree skip the Flex Fuel as it is political football. If handled well this will make a impact if handled poorly it will become fodder for the idiots of the NYT or MSNBC. And above all leave the damn old cars at home. We need no reminders of what got us into this mess. All they needs to see ia a big honking 50's Buick and decide they need to remove the collector cars as gas wasters and filling our air with more carbon. These people don't give a rats a$$ about B pillard being removed. They don't even understsand the Stig!

If the cars were that good would you have to rub Tiger all over them to get people to buy them? The spokesman is a dying concept in todays maket. Image rules. The buyer wants to know what is this car going to do for me an how will it make me look when I pull up to the resturant door.

At the next hearing Rick should stand up and tell them we want you to come and see what more we have back in Detroit. Show them behind close doors what is not yet ready to be shown publicly. Also make the Hill rats drive to Detroit in cars provided by the MFG. No pl;anes on my tax dollar. Or If this does not impress them we bring then in Ted Nugent to hold them hostage at bow point for $25B [we tell ted Nancy wants to protect Bambi] and we then leave them in a room with Kid Rock singinig at high DB till we break their will. Of course this last part of the idea is completely optional.

I don't understand what the argument is here on what to take. Your only going to take what Washington and the press wants to see. They want mileage, Hybrids, alturnitive fuels etc Give them just that. Meet and match naything that Honda and Toyota offer and you will show them what they want. These folks don't care about G8's Large SUV's or a ZR-1.

Well the first post for this thread here was 11-21 and Detroit finally comes up with the Caravan idea on 11-24. Hmmm, Detroit late as usual what took them so long?

Gee I wish I had an idea like this and started a thread on cheers and gears on doing a caravan to DC. I am glad they are paying a lot of money to people just to use some horse sense! It is no wonder they can figure out the auto market. Now fire up the damn Cruze Volt Mule and hit the road. You know they will screw this up some how. I know some idiot will send the hybrid SUV and expect the unwashed media to understand them as they get blasted for only getting 22 MPG. If it does not get 30+ MPG highway GM does not send it. Pay attention GM you need to make a big impression on Washington and a lot of Toyota and Honda owners not the local GM fans.

The rebels are who that was directed to as that was a rebel idea that should not be revisited. Radical works for shock but not always for good styling. Kind of like painting your but orange and moon people on the street. That guy might be cool for some and turn off many but as time goes on he just becomes too weird for all. Also if the joke was funny don't tell it twice so I recomend Pontiac look to new ideas in many areas of design. I am just saying Pontiac can make a good statment just with a well styled car. Clean well proporsioned, tasteful with just the right low and tight look. Leave off the strange G8 tail ights or the strange GXP G6 bits that just don't flow. A great design should be styled into the car not bolted on.

Delorean and Bunkie were the only rebel Pontiac had. Aztec was different from ANYTHING you've ever driven or have ridden in before. It also screamed but all the wrong things. So please many who are giving general terms like this it is best to be a little more specific. That is what many at Pontiac has missed in the last 25 years. The bottom line is people want image and cool. They don't really care how cool the car looks they what to know how cool they look in it. That is what you need to attach to the car. Large bird decals and lost odd scoops and flairs just don't work anymore. You need a Pontiac built in the image like the CTS. The new CTS has some Caddy highlights but it is modern and looks like the car is pulled over the chassie. Look at one on the road the way the rear carefully flairs out and the way the tires will the wells are points that need to be put into a Pontiac. We need to leave the past behind as we have lost several generations that are now getting into the buying age of these cars. They don't care what they have done in the past but what they look like today and how they make them look. Looks are like power. Many may have 400 HP under the hood but few ever use 3/4 of it. Just having the power present a image. Looks do the same thing. It tells the others I cool and bad and I have power because this car makes me look good. Your selling image and power. That is what otdays buyers want. I am sorry a G3 and G6 just don't have that image. Not even the GXP. The G8 is close but just needs a little more something and that is what someone needs to find. Time to find a new image to replace widetack and you should not have to say excitment if they have seen the car. Imagine a next gen G8 built a little smaller in the image of the Chevy SS show car of a few years back. low long and sleek. Autoweek even pointed out the new Lambo sedan was a near copy in ther Body double photo. Put a twin grill on it and let her rip. Imagine a sedan with Solstice curves and a low roof. We need to pinpoint the new styling points that Pontiac needs to incorperate. Leave the old stuff out except for the grill or light tail lamp treatments. Low roofs, large wheels filling the wells. tight body on chassie with little over hang. High body line on the side to add to the low look while giving better side protection. Styling should be tastfull not polarizing. No carry over Chevy body panels. People buy BMW because Image, They buy Benz, Image, They buy Ferrari Because of the Performance Image Few are drive to there fullest. We need Pontiac to say something for the owner if he puts his money down. We are not going to sell a ton of Pontiacs anymore as I jsut don't see the volume on a shrinking market. Play to its strength. Pontiac is no longer a Sunbird or Torrent company.

GME is late, this was on Autoblog on Friday. This is where we firing these babys up, put in the AC/ DC CD of Hi Voltage and send Rick and Bob to Washington in them. Park the Caddy and Jet.

Finally someone is paying attention to the real needs!! The plain fact is Pontiac needs to step out and build cars all car buyers would aspire to now just the hand full of leftover Trans Am or GP fans. The truth is there are few Pontiac fans left and more die everyday. GM need to make this a perfromance car not relied on volume. It needs to be best in class. It needs to be something that appeals to the majortity. Polarizing people with weird or oddd designs is ok for a strong company but a weak division of a weak company has to get it right. If you want to save Potniac you need to let Pontiac become a new car in a new era. Living in the past has killed better car companies. Pontiac right now is much like the packard of the 40's and early 50's. It is a confused mess that tried too long to hang onto the past when the public moved on. The people left Pontiac it was not Pontiac leaving them. It may have not been a real cool thing to own a Pontiac since the 80's or 90's but going back to the formula of the 80's and 90's will not fix a car in todays market. You have to do better not only than the past Pontiacs but todays Nissan and Toyota's

Pontiac should be the in house tuner division of GM NA. Like HSV is to Holden, AMG to Benz and M to BMW. Pontiac should offer only the best tuner versions of every car they sell. That is not to say the most expensive or or limited. THey should sell Coupes and sedans. FWD and RWD but all should be of a special nature. No standard models, no cars that are not ment for spirited driving. The base cars should be a performance model and the up level car should be a near track car. What is wrong with Pontiac. Mixed signals. THey profess perfromance and excitment for years but give us a G3, Non Turbo G5, G6 with nothing but tacked on crap, A underpowered Toyota, a small SUV, and finally a great sports car and sedan. Only 2 cars out of a line up does not make a brand. Every Pontiac should be tuned by GMPD. The bottom line is to make Pontiac into something more than a rebadged Chevy and make owning a Pontiac somthing different. Today owning anything but a Solstice or G8 is nothing but a Chevy with buck teeth. Sorry even the G6 is not as good as the present Malibu. For right now I can't ans won't expect much as we will be lucky if there is a GM let alone a Pontiac. I still feel it is better top parek Pontiac for a couple years till GM can address them properly with a fresh start. Selling a G3 and the like just damages the name more than if they did not make it at all. The bottom line is other than replacing my wifes GTP with a G8 in the future I am driving a Chevy as it gave me what I needed a small FWD that is well tuned and has more performance vs anything close Pontiac offered. My HHR SS will run circles around anything but the Solstice GXP or G8 V8. Lets quite squaking about past history of the brand or old names. If they would just build a damn good performance car you could call it the Edsel 2 and people will buy it. Right now they are not building very good performance cars and in some cases you can buy a better Chevy version for the same or less. [Note I have seen the Cobalt SS turbo advertised for $19K.] If Pontiac offered a car comparable to: Mini FWD [Delta 2 based] WRX AWD [Delta 2] Small sedan, hatch and Coupe with a Turbo 2.0 [Alpha] Solstice [Alpha] G8 in a coupe version [yes in the ST] [ down sized in the future but retained in RWD Enlarged Alpha?] That is all they need. They do not need to be all things to all people just the best thing to those who want affordable world class performance. The important thing is these all have to be shared with Holden, Opel, Saab or one other overseas division. If Pontiac is not a world brand it needs to be shared. None of the future NA division will be NA base and sold only. Pontiac will either have to sell world wide or be rebadged in other countries. The Middle East sales would be high as to my hunch.

The low point will always be 1975-77 The year with the low power and the Vega Steering wheel is the worst. As for the C4 the 1984 was bad due to the Crossfire injection, the wrong shocks on the Z51 package and the overall failure of parts like the dash, power seats etc. The cars got better with each year but the 84 stigma and styling that just did not age well hurts it. At some point they will imporve and the later cars will show the best gain. But they will never beat the return on a 67 L88.

I see Lutz showed a Cruze Volt Mule. Lets hit the road.

If GM and the Vette are still around the C5-6 will take years to be anything of great vlaue. Some limited editions like a Z06 or ZR1 will be the exceptions. Also we can condem the C7 yet since we have no clue to what it will be. Even it it is a 2,000 pound Turbo 4 it could be a very exciting car and in many ways it could out perform many of the prersent line up. Lack of mass is even better then more HP. If you like a C5-6 buy one and enjoy it but don't park it hopping to send you kids to on it. I know may a Fiero that is for sale today just trying to get some of what was paid for it in 1988. In other words don't bank your future on one.

No we don't get the Hummers out till they refuse the money. Then we get a few plated H1's with rocket pods and circle the hill. I also though GM has a number of Hydrogen Chevys already floating around and Shell already sell Hyrogen in the DC area . Take them there and drive them!

We leave the trucks at home. If we can't drive it, it does not go. GM has mules running all over that can make the trip and show the technology. GM also has preproduction cars that can make the trip. Many of the cars that will be going are cars already in production like the present Hybrids. This is not a travaling auto show nor should it be. This is a caravan to show Washington technology they already have that is for sale and some that they can show will work in the near future. Too many in the public and DC think GM is all about Hummers and SUV's They have no clue about the other cars. Hell even a simple HHR shows how a vehicle will carry 5 people and cargo and get over 30 MPG with no problems. Either way this project would need to be keep basic and simple. If it does not fit in the cars it does not go. No GM press staff let managment do the talking. The future needs to come from them. If Rick wants to stay he needs his vision be seen and it better be good. GM has some new cars just ready for production and they are the kind of cars America needs. As long as the cars are presentable show off some of the new technology. I am sure if they don't have a Volt that can do this trip a Malibu Mule with the latest drivetrain can. Anyone can truck a mock up in and it proves nothing.

My thought is get a caravan of all their best mileage and rated car. Drive them down to Washington with the press along. Then stop is some of the towns along the way and let the brass mingle with the public by showing the cars to them and making their case with product in hand and in the near future. This would have more impact than the Detroit show and cost a lot less. The press will cover it every night till they reach DC. Let the people from Fax and CNN drive the the cars and report about them. If the CEO's all believe in their products then they should show it. I only wish it was spring and the weather would be better to get more of the public to show up. These kind of things were done often by tire companies and other in the 20's and 30's. I also would make a big show and call out those on Capital hill to drive and see what you have. I know GM and Ford both have a lot they can show. Chrysler is a little weak but they can bring their electric cars. The cold may hurt them but they need to show something. We already have the Hot Rod Power Tour this could be The Future of Detroit Tour. Also bring your best designers and engineers to work with the press and also speak on Capital Hill on what they are doing and where they can go. The Automakers all should ask for one thing. IF the Goverment puts someone as a Car Czar they should also approve of that person. THey need someone who knows Detroit and Washington. Someone like Lee Iacoca who understands both sides. Either way this caravan needs to be down to earth and basic. no flash or celberties. A real roll up you sleeves and get to work event. Leave the $2,000 dollar suits at home.

What are the odds of the GM leaders waking up and do something that would make a great impression on Washington and the rest of the country. When they go back to Washington drive the best new product and efficent product you have and even bring a few Future mules like a Volt. If Rick drove up and parked at the Capital steps in a Volt Mule that made it all the way from Detroit alone with a Cruze and a hand full of their best hybirds it would not only put it on Washington but it would show what GM is really doing to a uninformed public. Make a show of this a show of what really is going on. Leave the Jets and SUV's at home and show how GM is and will compete in the future. If they really believe in the Volt the prove it. Better yet anounce the trip and invite the press to ride along! Let them report the real mileage. It is a little PT Barnum like but if you really have the right stuff show it! This is the biggest sale in GM's history so they better do a better marketing job than they have.

I expect by the time the Cruze hits the maket a fully loaded one will be near $28K base models will be in the high teens. It still be in Accord price range. I just posted my estimate on the high side to make the price between the Volt and it as low as possible. I noted today many co workers watching Fox news at the LA auto show anounce the $40K plus price on the Volt. All of them reacted to it like GM is crazy. They all said they might consider it if it was $25K.

Here is why I can't agree yet! -You and I don't know true demand yet. If gas is still cheap many will not pay the extras money for this car unless they save money over a cheaper car like the Cruze. Only time will tell. -Fuel prices could go up at anytime. But then again we were never to see gas under $2 again. Again time will tell. -We are a long way off of banning all but Zero emmision vehicles in urban areas yet. We need alot more of them before they can do that. One car is just not going to do that. -E Flex will come down in price but it is going to take time and will not help the Volt at intro and for good number of years. -The Goverment incentive is good but is it going to be good enough to make this car a cost saver for the average person over a small gas or deisel engined car that is cheaper to buy. The average buyer is not going to pay a preimum for a car that they will not get their peremium money paid back on during the life of the car with fuel savings. The buyer who can afford the premium will keep his CTS as he is not wooried about fuel cost. There is no answer to this questions and no one is right or wrong till we know what the fuel price is at the intro and the first 2 years of this car. Here is the bottom line If it is low it will hurt this car in ways GM can't fix and if they fuel price is high they will sell out.