hyperv6

Ok lets do something different here and let some facts get in the way. These are the numbers for the 2008 that sold 99,176 units 2006 I think I saw sold 118,000 approx and the 2007 was also over 100,000. Note if you disagree with these numbers call GM as that is where they came from. The HHR is not sell this year as and is flooding lots just as almost ever other GM car. But most informed pople would understand that and any idiot would understand that but then again from what I read I guess some don't The Orlando was posted by me on the HHR site several times and seldom there are few who really care for it. With the number the HHR sells at and the reaction of the present owners I would think cat GM's attention. The HHR will do fine till 2011-12 but it will need replace by something new. But it also has to be specal as the Olando is just nothing special. Th epeople in a HHR was something that people stop them as say they like it. Contary to popular belief many people who don't own one do like them and they are under 50. I have no problem with the Orlando being built but it is just not going to sell to the same demo as the HHR does. I hate to see the risk of those sales being gone that are easy to keep with something visually interesting and affordable. In the HHR's case being different is a selling point to many. I was never a HHR fan or understood it till I bought my SS. The HHR base is very diverse and special. This is the kind of group that would be loyal if given a replacemnt that offered not the exact styling but just special styling. Many people today want affordable cars that get them noticed. Too often you have to spend 50 K to get noticed. Lutz did GM a big favore to fight for this little car. As for 7 seats Not sure but I would say in the HHR's case few care. I think most would want about 6 inches more lenth for hauling and a side opening rear door. Some have done this conversion. The Panels are selling well this year even in slow times. THe SS would sell better if it was marketed. I know few know about it as many people think I built mine. It ges like this " That is cool and a turbo, Did you built it yourself?" As for AWD and the like it would be nice but not manditory unless it was affordable. You lose the price point on this you lose your sales. Too many on this web site forget price when dreaming up cars. It is nice to have the toys but not everyone can afford them. GIve them a car that feels loaded at a affordable price and you win the game. IN economic times like that it is a wise thing to keep in mind.

It all goes to prove you can make a silk purse our ow a sows ear. GM too can turn it around but they need to make a lot of correct calls and the economy to improve. They also need more time since they are so large it is hard to right a ship this big. That is the one advantage of a smaller GM. Quicker to react. Hyundia is not my cup of tea but to most people cars are just transportation. If they can buy one cheap and not have to spend money to repair it over 100,000 most are happy. They could care less where it is made or if it is sporty. THey just want un offensive reliable cheap transportation. GM needs to deliver the biggest bang for the buck. They did with the ZR-1 now lets do the same with the Cruze.

THis is too close to the NOX. The HHR is the kind of vehicle people buy to be different and not to look like every other mini van or cross over on the market. HHR has 3 groups of buyers. The key points of the HHR are this. Styling. It looks nothing like a Cross over/mini van. It sells well to SUV and truck buyers wanting to down size. Note a lot of truck owners. Price. the price of the HHR makes it a steal of a buy. It is well sorted out and except for a little too much hard plastic on the inside it present every well with the upgraded interior. Perfromance. their has been a growing group of perfromance people since the SS arrived. It has become the Mini that GM never really built. It is fun to drive and wicked fast with minor upgrades. Mileage. The HHR get great mileage even with 290 HP of the tubo stage 22-30 MPG real world. While the Orlando may a good vehilcle it is mostly what the HHR is not and what the buyers of the HHR want. It will be a risk to end the HHR with 100,000 annual sales to be replaced with a vehicle so close the the NOX and so far from the HHR. As a HHR owner I would never buy one of this because it looks like a mini van and from what the reaction was on the HHR web site when I presented the Orlando I am not alone. I would rather see a retro update on this plaform of the HHR as a retro styled vehcile based on a 55 Chevy panel and Suburban. Keep it retro but change the styling more than Chrysler did on the PT.

I have been all three cars and got to spend some time checking them out. The things mentioned are all fair targets. The Challanger feels like a Dodge Ram Pick up which is find if your in a truck. The Mustange needs to ditch the rear end and the Wheel in many of the new Fords are close to the dash. The Camaro' weak points are the trunk and interior. The rest is fine. With that said thes care are all great cars and any of the negitives are not enough to kill any deal accept for the price on the top line Challanger. We are lucky to have all in times like this and better enjoy them while we have them. Performance will still be around but this is the last of the retro themes.

You can snow the public for many years but when the market became global and more compititon arrived you can Bull 4hit them anymore with 4-5 different cars called Cutlass. As for Pontiac and Saturn they had possibilities till the lack of funding for 20+ years has taken a toll. Lutz was correct to say they were damaged brands. GMC is still around as it makes money as does Buick does in China. This makes Buick a viable risk for this country as if it fails they will sell on in China. If you pump money into Pontiac and it fails you are just out all that money with no chance to recover it. GMC will be around as long as Buick and if they fail GMC will follow. Caddy and Chevy is all GM needs in NA right now. If you have only enough money to develope 20-30 great cars why produce 70 half a$$ cars. Without proper funding to cover a large corperate line it would be foolish to spead the money that thin. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, even Ford and Chrysler are two car division for the most part with only a stray jeep and merc in the mix. GM no longewr has to make a car for ever demograhic there is because they just can't afford it anylonger. The bottom line is GM will be around but a changed company. It will be painful to watch but it has to be done. My father had to lose his lower right leg and it pained me to see that happen but thank God they did as I still have him aound and he is still very a important part of my life. Even if something horrible would happen to GM NA I could see them simply take cars like Chevy and Caddy and become a import company. GM of China could take over Chevy and start over. The names have too much positive equity yet and if offered in a good quality and well priced people will buy them. I would not like to see them imported but as the general American public goes it seems not to matter anymore as they have moved away form most American Autos anyway.

What point? Most of the recent loyal Pontiac people buy GM anyway and the most of the rest left the Pontiac party a long time ago. Most of the Pontiac owners that have moved on have gone to the Malibu and many of the cars you pointed out I think you will find most of the people buying a G5 or 6 would move to a Chevy the Chevy version is cheaper or better and they were more GM loyal vs anything else. Also the G8 is getting sold to people that would interest people in a CTS but find the G8 is a great buy at the price it is. Funny the many names you point out only one is a Pontiac and the only real one worth owning. The bottom line is few people from Pontiac are Toyota and Honda fans. There so few of them in the first place are they worth the investment with little hope of market share recovery? How much would GM have to invest in Pontiac to make them right? A lot and how good are their chances to bring back what has already been lost. Small. Kind of like fixing up that old junker and your putting in more money in than a new car payment. Not too smart. Thanks for making my point.

The key to Hyundia is they have been growing for the last few years. The key is they finally have a good qualtiy car with a good warranty and the monthly payments are less than most for the kind of car you buy. Hyundia has Toyota and Honda worried. The sad thing is if I recall one of the key people at Hyundia is originally from Buick.

GM is not becoming Toyota. In the past the market was GM and many tried to become them. THe market shifted and now Toyota, Honda, Hyundia and Nissan have become the dominate products in the world market. No one forced anyone out of a GM cars but GM. Lack of product that the consumer wanted and the lack of quality in the past burned too many people. Todays consumer is not a loyal American buing American products. He wants the best car for the money and after getting Burned by the big three he found what he wanted in an import car. Welcome to world market 101. You can't throw out China in this as if there was no large market for Buick there we would not just lose Pontiac but also Buick. If Pontiac had been the choice for the Royal family [or I should say Oakland in the 20's] The roles would be reversed. Buick and Pontiac sales in the states are poor at best. The only reason Pontiac sold more as they offer more models and fleet sales have carried them this far. GM with out Pontiac is not a mistake. One needs to ask. How much would it cost to revamp all the Pontiac and make them a car in the true performance image. Remember GM has little money for just Chevy let alone Pontiac. GM is down to making Ketcup soup as it is now and it is hard to make what little funds go any farther. G5 is an example of what kind of funding Pontiac had when GM has some money now they have less. What do you think your going to get. Pontiac would need to be sold world wide. Does Pontiac have the product to make it a world brand as the rest of GM is becoming? Could would should is not going to cut it and with little money to build these cars Pontiac is DOA. Do you see any other country out their lining up to buy a G5 or 6 as they are since your not going to revamp the entire line in less than 10 years. GM with out Pontiac is not a huge mistake. GM with out Pontiac will be a sad place. Pontiac is like the lungs to GM and GM regrets not stopping smoking 25 years ago now that Pontiac looks tewrminal. The damage is done and they have few options or funds to fix it. The transplant of Holden and Opel product will only nuse them along till GM can either fix of finally kill it off.

FYI they did sell 100,000 HHrs in the last 3 years each and not as many were fleet as you think. Look around and they are everywhere. No Apples or oranges here with the HHR SS as it has more performance any Pontiac less two sold today. Agree GM is at fault for Pontiac who else could you blaime for the last 30 years? I still bought a Chevy because that is who built the car that fit my daily needs for MPG, Fun to drive and hauling. Pontiac had nothing to offer no matter who is at fault. Point is they did not have what I wanted. Like many who no longer buy Pontiac. The longer the market is down the better chance Pontiac will not even make Niche status. Well Opel can make it on its own in Europe as #2 there and GM has already looked to spin it off on its own and only share platforms. Buick could close shop where and live on in China, Do you really think Buick NA is supporting them? As for market share the Sloan system should have been remove years ago. GM had better learn to live on less share and more profit as they are not going to gain much in the future unloess a few player fall out of the market. Your never going to see 40% plus again. The name of the game is profit per unit sold. GM has gone too long on volume and little profit. Everyone else in the industry is makeing less car and more per unit sold so why would it not work with GM? Why work twicew as hard only to make less. Only a idiot or a failing corperation would do that. GM needs to gain back what they can but make a better profit on what they can get.

It litteraly is a modern wagon but it will have Mini Van SUV cues. Marketing will never call it a station wagon as it brings images of a LTD with wood grain tape on the side. The Truck and Sedan have merged in the Ridge Line. Toyota and other already have versions ready if the time is right. Ford already flinched on the light pick up as they said their owners want 7,000 towing ability when few even pull a trailer. CAFE will force some of these to market and many will bite on it. The question will GM get there in a timely manner or will they be 4 years late and normal? Sorry earlier in this thread mentioned the Versa I ment to say Venza. The Venza is the trend for the next 5 years and it will pick up strong when the market returns. Sorry for the error on the name but most Toyotas disinterest me as a whole so I confuse the names.

Ahh hate to break the news but most of the people left the Pontiac party a long time ago. Look at the numbers. Also they all did not go to Toyota. I did not want a Chevy either with two Pontiac still in my garage but I wanted a fun perfomance car with more than two seats that got good MPG for daily driving. I had to buy a Chevy. 10 Years ago I would say let invest in Pontiac and fix em up but today Pontiac is too damaged and the money needs to go to divison GM can still be save. I hope the Pontiac niche deal is not to just starve out the dealers and that once GM can get back on their feet they can rebuild Pontiac. But one only has to look at this with their brain and not their heart to know Pontiac is on life support and it is unlikley it will come off. I am more worried GM will still make it in one piece. Chevy, Opel and Buick spun off could live on their own. Buick would be China only as would Opel Europe only. Caddy might live if absorbed by someone else. If Pontiac had to go out on their own how long would they last? It would last shorter than Saturn. Do I like any of this Hell no. But it is the reality and not unlike the real world of life or death. We all hate to lose someone or die ourselves but it happens. You either move with the world or you get left behind. Pontiac got left behind and not much of a chance to catch up. It s time for those who think market share to wise up and realize it is profits that count. You can own 50% of the market and still file chapter 11. GM needs to make a profit and do it soon. If not there is not going to be anything under the GM emblem. It will be broken up and only some of it will be left to other companies or on it's own. THe other reality is Olds would have only made GM's problems come sooner as it was just a big bleeder. The new cars were not workng and many of those people would have left anyways. The exodus started long before they decided to shut down. Other wise it would not have shut down when they did. THeir only mistake was not making it a niche model to keep from buing the dealers out. Hmmm sounds familier? I did not leave Pontiac they left me a long time ago. The same goes for many of my Pontiac buddies as we have our older Pontiacs but we are driving Chevys and Cadillacs.

Combine both those numbers together and they total up to pathetic. Last year Chevy sold 100,000 HHRs alone and it was a car many said was too little too late and then we get a good Pontiac and jap rebadge and only come up with 7,000 units over two months sold. Pontiac is lucky it is too expensive to buy out the dealer franchises as they would not even make niche status other wise. Just sad!

OK if you want to set trends give me one that is 100% a sure thing and will sell no lets than 150,000 -200,000 units a year. It also must be on a current or planned platform and get no less than 24 City and no less than 30 hyw. Oh and you have to keep the base price close to $20K. Even a Volt version of a Chevy Versa would go a long way to bring in people who want more veristility and a electric vehicle no one else offers. Baded on the Volt a rebody would not be hard and new Batteries in the near future would support it. The next trend is going to be a cross of a Mini Van/SUV/Sedan. The Toyota Versa is not my cup of tea but it has everything many families and soccer moms that made cars like the Tahoe, Camry and Caravan top sellers. The other trend is a small light affordable coupe with RWD. THe Genisis will be copied by many. They pens are already down and moving in Tokyo. Affordable quality transportation. A lot of people shop by monthly payment. They look for the cheapest car that they like the looks and feel of. Hyundia has been doing this for the last 5 year very well. With the economy going to take a whle to recover many will turn to these cars. A Cheap Cruze but not stripped would be a good idea as the Spark will not appeal to everyone. GM also can compete with the present models they face but they just need to make them bullet proof and better in all areas. Toyota did not get to the top with any original ideas they just earned a good rep and thrived off of it. No matter how inovative you are if your cars are crap no one is going to buy it. GM has improved but they need to do even better.

What we need to do here is stop thinking like traditional GM owners and buyers as they are a dying breed. Todays makret has limitations. Coupes, 2 seaters, manual transmissions, RWD, are all limited markets. So anything you do there has to be cost effective and based on a platform that supports a sedan like platform. [excepting the Vette]. We know the new CTS and other Caddy sedans will end up on the Alpha. A limited CTS coupe could carry over. Buick could do a mid priced Lexus/accura like sedan that is different from Caddy. Buick also has other cars they will offer in FWD that may not ever be sold as a Caddy. Chevy will for sure look at this as a Camaro replacment. The market is going more Genesis like and the new Camaro will be as fast or faster but lighter and with a smaller engine. The question is does GM need a new Impala and will the market in Chevys range continue to support a second sedan RWD over the Malibu? Many people today are FWD fans and even put snow tires on FWD because they have lost the skill or never had the skill to drive a RWD car in the snow. Most of us here know RWD can get though anything but it itimidates many drivers today. As for Pontiac I could see a Coupe there more than at Buick. Also a small G 6 sedan that both could be shared with Holden. The key with Pontiac someone else has to sell it elsewhere. Holden or Vaxhaul are where we need to look. Pontiac while smaller can ot use the same cars as Chevy but still needs to share the car with someone. The big question is how many cars can they make off of this economically? Sales will never exceed the FWD lines. Your FWD will carry the load and this platform like it or not is only is only in a supporting role. The key is no rebadges in the same market if it is a rebadge it must be out side the US market. GM still needs to worry less on trends and more on getting the cars 100% right. Interiror are better but could still improve. Details like on the new Camaro where there is no leg room and the trunk opening is so small. Granted it is not a family car but if you make a back seat make it somewhat to the point an adult does not have to roll up into a small ball. The Camaro is not a 911 and LT Dan is not the only guy riding back there. The same is as much as I like th Zeta if you wanted a trend GM would have been better off going to the Alpha in the first place. But hind site is 20/20 and times are changing fast. Lets face it today most people are woosies about RWD in bad weather. Your not going to change a lot of minds so that will limit your market. You can explain all you want but there are limits to changing their minds. People have changed, markets have changed and GM will have to change with them. GM will be smaller and leaner at years end. IF only the auto market would pick up we would be ok. But if it continues as it is even Toyota and it's deep pockets will suffer.

Trend are risky to create and Hyundia, Kia and all the companies in Japan have proven you don't have to be original to make money. The last trend GM started was the Muscle car with the 64 GTO. Even then that is debated by those who like the Chrysler 300. Even though the Toronado was an early FWD GM never really capitalized on it till everyone else joind the party. GM already builds dome of the best engines and transmissions. They are improving on original styling like the new Caddy. But they have not even copied the big trends well other than SUV's. GM has yet to build a mini van that was ever worth a damn on the market. Cars like the Camaro in 67 to the HHR in 06 were late but were better products of what they copied. Both sold very well once to market at over 100,000 units. GM does well building a better version of the trend they just need to get to the start of a trend sooner. They sell well when they get there but the many lost sales by the time they get there hurts. The last thing GM needs is a Scion or Aztec trend. As for what we want and what we think that is ok but we just need to keep it real. Too many anymore people get pipe dreams and then bicker when it does not happen. Too often reality gets in the way of a dream. I am just say what we want needs to be on the same page as what cam be done. Dreams are cheap and reality can suck the life out of it.

Ok with the feed back but we need to keep it real. Your not going to get V8 engines as that is not in the cards for any GM car other than the Vette. It will have it as long as the trucks have it. Your going get powerful V6 and Turbo 4 cylinders that will meet the goverment CAFE. You want a V8 dont write GM write your senetar. As for GM competing withg each division? Lets give them a chance to give us an Idea of what they are planning. This platform can be so many different things as it will be flexable like the Zeta can be more. GM with each new platform they have been competing less and less with each other. I find it funny how some complain about GM competing with itself are some of the same who cry to bring back the Firebird or like the G6. Any comments need to be address with an eye to the position GM is in, We need to consider Market Trends MFG cost, lack of GM funds, crash testing, building cost, weight, MPG, Emission, and the many other paramiters GM has to operate under. When we comment we need to think under their conditions not our free as a bird this is a good blog idea blog thougt. We also need to consider just because this is RWD it is not just a perfromance car. It has to be many things. It has to satify the genneral market first and the enthusiast market second. THe enthusiast is in the minority and always has been. They always base performance cars on regular models for a reason since they sell may fewer of them vs basing a regular model on a perfomance model. The trend today. GM is watching things like the Genesis, Soul and the Versa. These are going to be two very hot products in the future. Building an RWD Impala sedan may not be a good idea as I can see the Versa overtaking the Camry in the future in sales. I am not a fan of either but you can't plan cars on what you want but what the market wants. I see the Versa as the Chrysler Caravan of the future. Can the Orlando compete? I see a AWD Versa like Chevy doing very well but it will not be on a Alpha. GM already has a good AWD platform to suit it. Over all I would like to hear a little more on the car and an idea of where GM is going before I would get too critical on the Alpha as of yet. GM has a lot of good product people there now and they have made few duds of late. Each car they have revamped in the last 5-6 years was a big imporvment and I would expect it to continue. Buick today has shown GM quality is up. To break preception GM needs to build cars for the people who have been buying imports and not worry so much obout where they have been. Everyone else has moved on and that has been part of GM's problem. Also we need to keep in mind no wild hair ideas on new radical products as we are in the last of the 9th with two outs. Lets face it it has been a long time for GM to lead in a trend. IF they want to start a trend it had better be a no miss because they can't afford anything less. Ideas like a Kappa are good but can they really afford to develop a car that is not going to sell in great numbers right now? GM needs to address volume cars and Chevy is the one to do it. The economy is not going to get better soon that is the reality. We need to consider this. Affordable, good value reliable cars will be what many will want in the coming years. Small vans and pick up on the Alpha may be something to consider too. Just look at how many already are using HHR panels for their companies.

Well you said it Alleged Plans. Let see what they are going to do offically before we get too carried away. What is said here is not going to change GM's plans anyway. The box to build a RWD car is very small. The new platforms are very flexable. GM is at least still looking at a RWD car when most are moving away. Give a chance to show what they really are thinking vs just some post on some lose outlines that are not proben yet.

Before we start complaining about who get a Alpha and if they are going to compete lets see the cars first and plans. This BS is like complaining about a meal before it is even cooked. We used to be a little better around here and at least have some real facts before going negitive. Lets also first make sure there even going to sell the dang thing in the first place. So sit back and wait till the facts get in the way before we complain.

My 1968 Chevelle SS and my Dads 1968 Chevelle Concours were built the first week of production of the 68 production. My SS had the SS emblems for the front market lights that said SS 396 now rare today and the Concours was the top line hard top sedan that is rarely seen today. The funny thing is we owned the cars years apart and the original owner of the SS told me it was the first Chevelle sold at Jack Sommer Chevy and I looked at my dads paperwork on his and his was sold 2 days before. I expect they even went the same dealer on the same truck.

The Hyundia Genesis is the future of the coupe sporty market. I would expect a Impala and Camaro replacment with this platform if this does not change 15 time as it will by 2014. DI and Turbo's for everyone! I like the part about lighter cars. There is so much more to gain in perfromance with less weight.

Kanifel Pontiac did a special T-37 that was called a Magnum. I do not know of any originals left but one in town here that is a clone. Kanifel was the home of Tin Indian race team and drivers like Arlen Vanke, Doc Dixson and Arnie Bestwick. They made the Magnum out of a T-37 and it was there econo Bobcat like car. Light and fast.

Camaino please get the book Why GM Matters that just came out. It is a good read and it shows how GM in many ways are trying to beat the imports not just in quality and acceptance but in styling. The ways GM is working hard to meet or match Toyota is in MFG. The Volt is a good example of GM not just trying to make a Prius copy as Honda did.

Poor mans GTO! I know a couple people with these and they are nice.

It is your right to be wrong! LOL! Better look around as nothing is selling right now and things do not look good for the near future. The Camaro will sell good in the first and part of the second year due to demand form long time fans who have waited. But Chevy has already lost many who did not wait or can even afford to buy a car now with market losses. Lets face it as now is the best time in the world to buy a car and I have 10,000 Hondas sitting at a old Ford plant near by because they can't give them away. Even Mustang sales are down and GT prices are slashed. Nothing personel toward the Camaro as it is just the market and economy. Things will not get better till the credit market is fixed and the present adminstration finally does something other than spend money or talk to Oprah about talking up d+Detroit. I hope they have a better plan [as they call it ] than that. Even Scott stated last week he hopes he has a job in the future. And for what it is worth the Challangers interior is horrid. The dash just does not fit the cars image. and it has a very large blind spot to the right rear. The leather feels good but the plastic is the worst. Just like the SRT 4 I got in. The interior look cheap and lots of bad plastic but the seats were nice.

The Camaro will sell very good the first year. Year two will be more of a challange with the economy as it is not coming back strong short term. Three the Camaro is not going to sell in numbers as it did in the past and GM knows it. That is why they do not have a bird to go with it. The biggest problem is there no longer is a Impala to share the line or parts in Canada. Will they be able to get enough sales to justify keeping the car till 2016? The next gen Mustang is up in the air now as Ford is not working on RWD platforms. They can still do one but will there be enough auto market to justifiy the spending with CAFE going up. Finally the market is not 1969 and many people want small cars and FWD when in the past they had no choices of these. We the enthusiast don't think that way but the many people who used to buy base Camaros because it was a affordable small car are now in Rabbits, Civic's and Minis.