hyperv6

If you don't like it skip it then. I have no need to put words in your mouth? Tesla is not worth arguing about.

I've read my history and to make any kind of comparison of Tesla to Hitler is just very careless and honestly, quite ignorant. No it is not.it was more a comparison to Germany. Germany in the war was more advanced than any of the Allied powers. They were first with the Jet, They had the lead on rockets and they were ahead on the bomb. Just as Tesla is in the lead on EV vehicles Germany was ahead in technology in the war. In the end the Allies had something Germany did not have. More natural resources and more man power. While they lacked the advanced things in the war they were able to out build and catch up technically as the war went on because they were bigger and had more to fall back on. Most major automaker has more money and ability in their R&D than Tesla. Also the major automakers can afford to make cheaper models like the Bolt fully loaded and still not make money on them and survive. Telsa has to make a major profit on anything that rolls out the door or they will pay the price. They have not trucks, suv's and any ICE models to pay the bills. If you know your history then you know what I am pointing out here. It is not about Hitler so much as it was about the size and advancement of Germany. They were ahead technically but in the end they still lost the war. Just a simple illustration. Note too after Germany fell the Allies came in and fought for the things Germany had to offer them. We got the rockets and some advanced aero technology from them. It spurred the technical growth of America from the 50's to today. Hitler? Germany?One and the same and completely off base in the manner that you using it. Sorry, I don't take the comparisons very lightly when it comes to Nazi Germany unless there is a direct comparison to be had. In the case of comparing Nazi Germany to Tesla, way off base and very short sighted IMO. Oh and it has been proven that Germany had little more than paper planning when it came to the bomb claim. The fool who claimed they did ten years ago has been thoroughly debunked. http://m.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/a-346293.html That's all I'm going to say about it. Time to stop being overly sensitive of history. Much to be learned by it good and bad in many parts of our lives. As for the story the key wording in the story states "If these theories were accurate, history would have to be rewritten" The fact is there were many what if's in the war. If Hitler has not ignored the technology he had as much as he did things would have been much different. That is not a theory. No matter if you like the example or not it illustrates the fact that you can hold an advantage on technology yet due to your size and mistakes still lose in the end. I am sure you get the point no matter if you like it or not! Many times the true statement is bigger is better in cases like this Imagine Tesla getting hit with some kind of major recall. You know the kind like GM had on the Cobalt and VW on the Diesels. That would put an end to Tesla right now. And don't be naive to say it could not happen. Just not enough company to absorb that kind of action.

The thing you forget is the technology they are giving away is not of the nature that anyone wants it. What MFG has taken up their offer? Too many issues. For one they would be dependent of Tesla for some of their systems and also it is not really any better than what they already have. If anything it is behind what is coming from some of them. Elon a decade and Lutz 80 years? Whats that got to do with anything. Has Elon made a profit yet on just selling cars? As for the work of Lutz at Pontiac. The last models were just a Hail Mary as there just was so little time and money to do anything to save them. The truth is the models you named were not duds they were really amazing that they were produced at all under those conditions. Having been able to talk to Scott Settlmire of GM and Fred Simmons from Pontiac on the topic they really showed how these cars were done on so little money that most people would have never been able to get them out. Note Bob also pumped a ton of what money they had left into the products GM got post bail out. While FCA was going with only mild refreshes and little in new product GM was already putting out new product with new platforms and engines. Mark Ruess and Lutz did GM a big help when they did not sit still when the bail out was coming up. Pay Pal is great but it is not a car company. The S model is fine and he proved a segment where you could sell a EV for $120K when no one else thought you could. Credit to him. But on the other hand he has not tried to sell a cheap car yet. Selling a low volume expensive car is like shooting fish in a barrel. Now sell one for $30-40K now that will be a challenge. And no his 3 will not be sold for $35K as he himself said the price would go up by production time. Also that is a gutted stripped down model. Once optioned up it will be at least $50K or more. Was Lutz perfect by no means. He had his share of mistakes and his mouth got him in trouble many times and may have kept him from the top seat many places. But on the other hand he is the one who set the path for GM and how they work today. I would recommend his books on his time at Chrysler and GM as they tell the good and the bad of his times there. Like he stated there were people there that were the problem and some that were not. His goal was to help get the people that were no the problem in place before he left. Elon talks a good game. He has had success but also many failures too. He is a master of deflection and covers his mistakes well. In the auto field he has one major success and that is good but you are only as good as your next move. The X has not really played out and brought in the needed money or volume yet and the longer this is delayed it is not a help. The 3 is a good bet to be late too. If they rush things and something goes wrong there will be a big price to pay. I in no way impart Elon is a failure in anyway. But he is walking a tight rope in the auto market and he has no net. He has put all his chip on one number where it could pay off big or it could fail miserably. Just a simple act of a company like Porsche or Benz putting out a better expensive sedan like the S could kill sales and his income. What it comes down to is if you remove all the hype on Elon and Tesla the road only gets tougher from here on out. To say anything different is just plain ignorance of how the industry works.

I've read my history and to make any kind of comparison of Tesla to Hitler is just very careless and honestly, quite ignorant. No it is not.it was more a comparison to Germany. Germany in the war was more advanced than any of the Allied powers. They were first with the Jet, They had the lead on rockets and they were ahead on the bomb. Just as Tesla is in the lead on EV vehicles Germany was ahead in technology in the war. In the end the Allies had something Germany did not have. More natural resources and more man power. While they lacked the advanced things in the war they were able to out build and catch up technically as the war went on because they were bigger and had more to fall back on. Most major automaker has more money and ability in their R&D than Tesla. Also the major automakers can afford to make cheaper models like the Bolt fully loaded and still not make money on them and survive. Telsa has to make a major profit on anything that rolls out the door or they will pay the price. They have not trucks, suv's and any ICE models to pay the bills. If you know your history then you know what I am pointing out here. It is not about Hitler so much as it was about the size and advancement of Germany. They were ahead technically but in the end they still lost the war. Just a simple illustration. Note too after Germany fell the Allies came in and fought for the things Germany had to offer them. We got the rockets and some advanced aero technology from them. It spurred the technical growth of America from the 50's to today.

In WWII Germany walked into Eastern Europe because they proved they could. {Telsa} In the end Hitler Shot himself in a bunker in Berlin as all the other countries converged on Berlin. Even with all the most advanced tech and well trained troupes Germany just did not have the ability to vend off the rest of the world with their ability, reach and size. {The rest of the industry} I think in time we will find PT Elon may have won the first battles but in the end will either be just another smaller player or swallowed up buy someone else. You can toss pay pal out there all you like but in this segment it is about what have you done for me lately. GM was the greatest and largest MFG for decades but that means little today. There have been many people in the auto industry that have come and gone. They have had their victories and their massive failures. Elon proved there is a segment for a expensive larger EV sedan when most did not believe it. Now that the secret is out the resources and the abilities of much larger companies will superseded his abilities. Great people even like Henry Ford failed more than succeeded. His key to thriving was he stumbled upon the ability to make millions of cars cheaper and faster. If not for that he would have failed again like he did several times before. Also note if not for Edsel and the Flat head we may not have had Ford around today. In the auto industry the long term success is difficult and few manage to make it with out more failures than more successes, The problems Elon faces he with Tesla is he needs each model to pay for the next. The X has slowed his progress with slow start up and being so late to market with such high development cost. As for the 3 he needs it out now and it may be 1-3 years before we see it. Start up is going to be expensive and will the money raised with the presale and the stock be enough? Not sure yet. The auto industry is tough and much tougher than a dot com company. There are many more challenges and even if you get 100 things right one can kill a smaller company like this. The history of the auto industry is loaded with names of small failed automakers and many a larger Packard too. Even Duesenburg built what is yet today considered the best car in the world yet they failed for the lack of money. Even today we have companies like Mitsubisihi and Isuzu failing while larger companies like FCA looking for a partner to prevent failure. Even companies like Ford and GM working together just to lower cost. Will Elon survive with Tesla. He may. But lets just say it will not be as easy of a path as some believe. Just look at the autopilot issue. If he gets many court cases and even wins them over this it could drain the company of the money they need just to fight in court. The margin of error for them is slim. Please do not mistake this as hate of Tesla or Elon but more repect it of just how difficult it is to be successful in the auto industry. Read your history and this will be proven.

Yes all models that were build with virtually little time and no money by a guy in his 80's. Now if you look back he also sent BMW on the path to where they are today with the 3 series and the Ultimate Driving Machine marketing. He also turned things around at Chrysler till lee iacocca let ego's clash and he put Bob Gale in charge. Many of Bobs Chrysler products made them a lot of money and gave them much exposure. Again he did it with tight money and little time. The man found a way to sell a Cobalt wagon as an HHR and while everyone said it would fail it went on to sell most years in 6 figures. Anyone else at GM found a way to sell a wagon in six figures. Who also at GM got them to streamline things, Bob. Who asked why the panel gaps were so large and could it be fixed. Bob. Who said empowered the designers and engineers to do what is right and not worry about being a little over budget if it will sell a car?. Much of the empowerment of GM today is due to what he started and what he set fourth as how to do things building a car. No more wringing your hangs just because you want to put a part on a car that really needs it. Anyone can look at the 06 Malibu and then the 07-08 new model and can see even in the midst of bankruptcy he was able to get a model to where it was one of the best selling in the segment. As for the Volt it was done fast and it was done with little help from the outside as there was little in the way of suppliers back then. GM had to recruit companies to invest in making what they needed. Today the new Volt is a hell of a car and selling better as more people discover it. Lutz had the Viper right but then they screwed it up over time. He arrived he questioned the Aztec as to why they did it and could someone fix it? The GTP was done for 04 and was so bad he ordered to be revamped as much as they could. The Lacrosse was sent back and delayed by a year because it was so bad. The hard points limited what they could do but that they got was better than it would have been. The G6 was pretty much done when he got there. He questioned Pontiac is a performance division but you have no RWD? So with no budget he was able to get the GTO made with so little money the hood scoops had to wait a year. It is a shame but Pontiac was dead by the time he arrived. There just was no money or time to save them. Saturn also was gone by the time he arrived. The Opels were a good move but just 10 years too late. Not much he could have done on that. He tried to fix Cadillac some but again the STS was pretty much done and all he could do is soften the lines. The XLR was not just about making a Cadillac but also trying to increase production at Bowling Green to make it less venerable when times got tight. What was wrong with the G8? Yes he did a few mistakes like the GMC Envoy with the sliding top and there were some other models he just has not time and money to do much about. I guess everyone has their X model to bear. I would rather think Elon could not have done as well. Elon right now is still struggling to get more cars built and more money to build them. While he paints a pretty picture he has money issues. Pre selling the 3 is telling on how much they needed money. Also the additional selling of stock also is a tell. At some point Telsa has to make money on their cars and not just carbon credits. Also they will need to sell cars with no government rebates to the buyers. To reach long term volumes he will have to find a way to sell a cheaper car. At this point the 3 is not the cheap car he promises and it will also be late as all the other models. It will cost a lot of money to ramp up and he needs the income from the 3 to help pay the bills. Of late Tesla is losing many of their management. Could this be a sign of problems ahead? Time will tell. You can say what you like about Uncle Bob but he has gotten more tight than wrong. His brashness has held him back from doing more than he did but it is what it is. On the other hand much of what he did get tight came from not backing down. Things like him walking into GM and going to the power train guys and telling them I have your back now do what you can do regardless what you are told to do brought us things cars like the ZR1 with its wonderful engine. I am driving a 300 HP 4 cylinder today due to him. Yes I know others have that much power and more but this is an 08 model back when no one was doing that. Just look at the cars The GM performance division produced. All great cars. He moved these folks into the programs from the start and now not only do we have cars like the CTSV that are wonderful but even the base models ride and drive with world class acclaim. Bob was not the top guy and he had to fight for what he got. Elon is the top guy and yet yet he still struggles.

Yup posted about this on the BOLT thread in alternative fuel forum. Have no desire for Tesla to die, but their CEO is sure something special in an Asshole Kinda way! Yet since everyone wants to take no responsibility, how do we move humanity forward unless we have the occasional deluded asshole driving new tech. I really think that we have gone to long with out a crisis in this contrary. It used to be a war every so many years that took sacrifice or depression and then a health plauge that would kill thousands. I hate to say it but we have lost all character, modesty and integrity. we saw a glimpse of it when 911 happened where we were humbled and all came together but it only lasted a short while. We also have used and abused religion. While we have had many people walk away from it because of the Jim Bakers and the molesting priest we have also left some simple principals behind that generally keep people from being creeps or vial people. No matter if you believe in God or not the 10 Commandments if followed would solve much of what pains the world. But today we have people with no respect for much of anything or anyone and now we have so many doing as they want and paying the price for it leaving the rest of us cleaning up after them. I do expect there is a time we will face crises that will make 911 look like nothing and we will be humbles again. I expect many will die. It may be war. Sickness or just collapse of out country in some way as we can not continue as we are. I may or may not be here to see it but the day is coming as we can not continue on this way. Sorry about the doom and gloom but we just are not the people or world we are and if you look at history of the world there has always been a equalizer that comes and wipes people out and resets society. There is good and evil in thew world and there is both inside each one of us. Over time evil in each of us will do major harm and we all pay a price for it with the entire human race. The issues with terror will in time go global and there will be people who will try to break up the status quo. It will be how we respond in how it comes out. Right now I do not see us reacting in a way to survive. To many people with too many personal agendas to work as a group as we did in WWII anymore. Sorry for the downer in the AM but we have many worse things coming than stupid people in self driving cars and so many do not see it coming. The two people we have running I do not think are prepared to deal with it. I see one as criminal and self centered and the other as obnoxious and self centered. Anyone smart enough for the office has the sense not to run anymore. Even in business the arrogance is amazing like Mr Musk, Cuban and others. Just because they did get things right does not make them a great leader. It is the other intangibles that count that make a great leader. The Goodyear Tire Company just lost a great retired leader in Stanley Gault. He was a great man and fixed a lot of issues and always tried to do the right thing for the company and employees where ever he was. He was a leader of a large company but would about once a month to stop by with a cup of coffee and sit down with my father to catch up on things. My father was not a high ranked guy in the company but Stanley would keep in touch with the people doing the work and he knew from the top to the bottom the challenges they faced. He helped Goodyear and made Rubbermaid number one when he was there. Gault was proof that it was not just about doing the right things but doing the right that counted.

Have to say that there are WAY TOO MANY videos showing stupid idiots using their self driving mode and doing stupid stuff. We are nowhere near the point of being able to take a nap, play jenga, watch movies and ignore the road. The arrogance of the Tesla Owners can HURT not Help EV auto sales. We DO NOT need to gov stepping in and saying what we can and cannot do but come on, common sense about being responsible. This just proves the lack of common sense and personal accountability. These morons will all come back and blame Tesla or at least try. I personally hope this just slides by and does not hurt the introduction of the BOLT, Ioniq and second generation Leaf all with 200+ mile range in the next 12 months. By the time Tesla 3 comes out in 2018 or later, there is going to be plenty of options for awesome EV rides that I expect half of the 400,000 Tesla 3 reservations will be refunded as people go to other car companies. No matter how good you make the cars the weak link is the loose nut behind the wheel. Right now these systems are not idiot proof and may never be. Someone will always find a way to abuse it or find a way to get hurt using it. The right thing to do is keep the driver engaged in the car and it's operation. You may just save some lives including the innocent people that get swept up in someone else mess.

Leaving Politics out of this and focusing on the biggest issue you really nailed Hyperv6, personal accountability. Way to many people are willing to take risk, make poor decisions and happily blame the system and everyone else for their failure. Perfect example is way too many bankruptcy Drump boy has done. Never his incompetence in business but everyone else and every other reason as to why he had to dump his debt on others and burn / destroy other companies for his own personal gain. Pathetic time we live in that many americans are not willing to take personal accountability for their own actions. Fire all politicians, instill a 2 term limit, 4 years max per limit for house, senate and president. Turn ALL government workers, city, county, state and all federal onto the same Social Security and Medicaid that the rest of us have to use. This will force them to fix the problem.Tort reform, hold the people wasting time and money in the courts for the lawyers benefits accountable to pay all legal cost when their worthless lawsuit loses. Yes I can go on, but personal accountability is severely lacking in our country. So sad, So bad, so we have been had! Well since you did not leave the political out and just to be fair many business people and realty speculates use bankruptcy to clean the books of businesses and property they buy or to clear some risky investments they make because they can. Trust me I am not a fan of Trump but fairs fair. What he did was not illegal It may not be morally sound but not illegal. But what madam secretary Hillary did was unmoral and illegal. We are screwed no matter what. Many investors lose money or fail on many projects to find the ones that work. It is like Edison as he would fail 1000 times for one success. Even GM used the bankruptcy laws to clear the books for bad decisions and deals made by people years ago that they could not turn any other way. Bankruptcy today is seen as a tool or advantage not a failure anymore. Sad but true. I do not see this hurting the Bolt as it will not have autonomous. I just for one think they need to rename the systems as not to mislead. It really is not autopilot or all that autonomous at times. Also the NHSTA needs to rethink this and how to regulate it before they open Pandora's box. Once it is out then we are in trouble as you can not put in back in the box. Funny how the NHSTA will not put things in like Heads up but they will pass systems that are not totally resolved. I would say systems like Audi and maybe Cadillac may have much of this resolved but even then they need to be proven before given to the masses. Even then are people to be trusted. I had traffic tied up today because two idiots OD on Heroin while driving. Yet they some want drugs made legal? We can turn up the brightness on our HD TV but it still does not make the shows any smarter. Unless it is How It's Made. LOL!

I get where you are coming from. I still have my fathers photos of the death camps and ovens when he was there after the war. He made it clear to me what happened and how terrible it was. But with that said you also have to consider we use his name as a metaphor for out similar feelings of people doing wrong and what many of us perceive as people that are leading us on a similar path of less freedoms and more misleading of people with many promises and false hope. Case in point while Gitmo may not be perfect I do wonder what Obama will say and do when one of the people he released goes out had kills hundreds in a blast or attack. It is not a matter of if but when. One is missing in South America now. While I get your view of levels of wrong and evil. Many others just see wrong as wrong. We do not rate it we do not segregate it. Plus it rhymes with Hillary. Sorry if I offended but that was never the intent. I am just a little ticked off right now with her getting a free pass from the FBI director. If that was any of us we would have been in jail. Just because you are a Clinton Trump or Sanders you should not get a free pass. Bills Female issues are one thing and a lack of character that hurts my country indirectly. But Hillary's Email issue is something that hurts my country directly, People may agree or disagree but that is just my take on it. Well back to the topic. Not sure if everyone has seen crash #2 http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/05/southfield-art-gallery-owner-survives-tesla-crash/86712884/

Well here is the deal. It all comes down to Lawyers. Who has more money and more likely to settle. A larger company that builds more cars in a month than Tesla makes in a year. This puts a large target on them for lawyers. The media likes an underdog and gives them a pass unless they are an conservative. Tesla is their underdog right now in the auto industry to they get a free pass on many things. Finally while it is the idiot behind the wheel that is ultimately responsible that is not how out government and society acts anymore. For example. Who held a gun to anyone's head to start smoking? No one but yet they have taken the cigarette companies to task for it. Same for the gun companies as a gun has never killed anyone on it's own but the person behind the trigger has. Yet they try to take gun companies to task legally and by the government intervention. There are other classic examples where the product is not the primary cause but is blamed for the issues. As for saying the others will face the same issues is not true yet of even fair to say. They all are learning and Tesla taught them all a good lesson here. People are just not ready for these systems yet. I expect that the legal departments at all the companies are really looking into this right now as well as the government. So to say the others will face the same things or fail in the same way is not fair to say till they do. I expect this whole deal will change much from what was predicted where we would be short term. It was a gamble for Tesla and it has not paid off. On the other hand the media has given them a greater margin for error here so they may not pay as big of a price. The lawyers do not have enough cars, victims or money to go after either. Will we get a full autonomous car. Yes at some point but right now I expect the full extent of the systems may be changed as legally most will balk at the problems and legal issues that will be faced. No matter how much the human element fails the companies will be the ones that pay the price. Remember we hold few people at fault today. If you are a drug attic or drunk you have an illness. If you are poor you are a victim, if you have failed in life do to poor choices the system has failed you. There in lies the problem where no matter what a company does it will be their fault in the end. Personal accountability is dead in America as long as you can blame something or someone else. Just watch the campaign and how Hitlery will tell everyone how it is not their fault for their problems and then promise them the moon for a vote.

It may warrant a thread if it becomes a story. Too soon to tell. Just with the money Tesla has and will need one not even major issue could do them some major harm that most other larger companies can absorb. This is how so many smaller companies fail. Right now they are working from money from one model to another and the late an slow start up of the X was a real problem while they tried to get the 3 done. This is what really lead to the presale and the new stock offering. The path is narrow and the margin for error is small. Tesla is not like VW that can unload a Ducatti and other smaller players to pay for Dieselgate. While I am not a Musk fan or Tesla Disciple I do not wan them to fail in any catastrophic way as it could set back all EV products in image and public interest. People are now showing an open mind now but it could close fast with issues. While Elon promotion has helped it also will put them under a microscope when something goes wrong too. It is a two edged sword. As for the NHTA they have so many issues right now. Under the Obama Admin they really appear to be managed very oddly. Even when the past Hitler like leader of the branch were there like Claybrook at least you knew where they would stand on things. Now it appears they fit what ever they need to fit for lobbyist. But then again that is pretty much most of the government anymore.

Musk leaves out one thing. They are not putting it out there yet for a reason. Cadillac has a system they have shown that does anything a Telsa can but they know better than putting it out there yet. If anything Musk may have help set the Autopilot programs in the industry back years. That is something as someone who loves to drive will give Elon credit for. His issue now is he knew about the death when he sold $2 billion is stock. http://fortune.com/2016/07/05/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-stock-sale/ Elon has gotten some free passes in the past but at some point Wall St may tire of his actions and arrogance. While other companies have done similar things. But they are generally in much stronger positions to deal with it.

Well here is the deal on this whole thing. The AOC manipulated the cars to the point where they set Ford and Ferrari up to draw ratings. They failed the other brands in making the BOP. Ford has been sand bagging and it was an open secret. The other brands are now speaking up as they the BOP was pretty good at Daytona as all the cars were even but as time has gone on they failed to regulate it well. Also GM and Pratt and Miller are not happy with the fact Ford built a race car then will make a token number of street cars to make it legal. In fact the street cars should have been made before the GT could race. All other brands are taking their production cars as the rules clearly state and making them into race cars and no need to build a token number as they are built in the thousands. This is clearly a sign that the racing body has played games and if they continue to do this the series may find themselves with only Fords in the field which is not good for ticket sales or TV ratings. I know some of you here may just claim it is sour grapes but the truth is racing is business. The fact is the BOP is there to keep the greatest number of MFG in the series and help control the cost. But if you want to practice BOP you need to get it right and fix it if you get it wrong. Also you need to make sure someone does not come in and by pass the rules the others have followed for years as they can turn away pretty fast. If you do not understand this then look back to the 917-30 run back in the early 70's in Can Am. The series did not regulate this well and the series lost many teams due to cost and the series died and came back several times but never as good as it once was. The same thing happened in Trans Am also. Ford and Chevy stunk up the show and then bailed leaving the series with few good teams. It has come back a few times but really never was the series it once was. Today they really have it going again for smaller private teams and it is thriving as they are contorting cost well. Companies want good exposure and they do not want to have $100,000,000 programs. IMSA priced themselves out and everyone left the party. It was an amazing series in the 80's but died fast. Here is the link to the Badboys Vettes site. They have some legitimate complaints. They have been screwed this year and the last two years after dominating the start of the season and then having weight added and restriction added to the intakes leaving the championship to the Viper who was threatening to leave and still did when given the win. The last year Porsche was handed the advantage late. I would keep in mind GM has the mid engine car coming that the rules favor and I have heard a turbo may be in play as an option. That too is something the rules favor. I expect if the series does not gain control of this soon GM will come in and do the same thing Ford did this year but they will have a production car first. Pratt and Miller is the one of the best MFG of race cars in the world and they will not let this go. They have tried to play by the rules and gotten screwed three times now by the sanctioning body. Their motto take no prisoners is not an idle threat. Word is they are already at work on the new car and have to wait till it is introduced to use it. This is also why the present car has not changed a lot. I just wish the body would get their sH*$t together and get the BOP right so we could have a really good series. Also I wish they would just enforce the rules as stated that these have to be production cars for sale before they race them. They really need to stop playing favorites or they will lose many of the fans watching. It is more than the GM fans that are not happy. http://badboyvettes.com/ Note point 7 that Ford even went as far to protest the one Ferrari for a light to try to sweep the podium. Come on guys if you can not sweep it outright then let it go. In the end to me it matters little who wins these races as long as it is all done in a fair competitive way. When winners are given distinct advantages and liberties that is what kills series like this and the ability to see great races, cars and teams compete. I have lost many a great series over BS handling of the series and I hate to see another go that way. Road racing is not the strongest series in the public eye and with racing in general hurting this one could be one of the first to see the MFG leave and team become weak or irrelevant. If you love road racing we all should take notice here and take issue with how the series is being run as they may kill this and we may be left with stuff like Daytona prototypes again. Another spec car series.

Elon has blamed customer and to be fair he may be correct in some cases and in other not so much. He also has done a lot of distraction. When bad sales are reported he talks the travel tubes. If the rockets crash he introduces a new program for the Tesla. He is a master of making the public look to his right hand as he takes their wallets with his left hand. He does have a masterful way with PR and how to try to keep a positive spin on about anything. That is one reason he has been as successful as he has been. It is not so much what he has done but how he did it. Most of it is in the presentation. The problem is time tends to run out on people like this if they do not show profits. The whole three thing was a spin. Why would you show a car 2-3 years out to pre sell it? Because Tesla needed the money. It was expensive to develop the X model and they were down to 2 billion based on reports. Not good if you are also working to finish the 3 and start up production on it too. While he fooled many with the 3 pre sale he now has to deliver on time which he has not done to this point. The cheap S model offering is a way to buy time but even that will hold limits as Porsche and others come to market with more EV cars. Just look at Toyota and the Prius sales that are tanking right now. People have moved on and at some point many will move on with Elon. He has done a hell of a job to this point but he also has had a lot of things that normally don't go right work. In time they will go wrong and it will be interesting to see if the share holders wait or bolt. Right now they should look into disabling the autopilot for now and wait till things are a little better sorted as the customers are just not going to use it properly. The system will fail the customers at times and you just can't rely on the customers to pull your ass out of the fire every time as a company. As it is now I expect most of the automakers will proceed with caution. They will let these systems assist but they will not be fully auto at least till the sensors can be worked out and maybe some driver defaults to make sure they are still holding a wheel or something similar. Even with the best flight systems in the world we still have two pilots on every plane. The bottom line is the systems are not perfect and the customers are not to be trusted to do the right thing.

Where did I say super cruise in a $19K car? I made no claim in any way as you were taking cheap GM parts and ignitions. If you would take the time to re read my post it was to note your comment on GM going cheap on cars. My point was yes they do in high volume $19K cars as you compare it to Tesla who makes $125K cars. They have a little more margin to work with at that price point. My clear point was if Musk were to make a $19K car he would be faced to do the same thing to hold the price down. For some one that claims to be a moderator you could use a little moderation of yourself. If you want to counter my comments at least read my post correctly. I have no issue debating with you and enjoy it. But it becomes difficult to debate when you become misleading.

Well it is a lot different when you sell a car for $19,000 and $126,000. You have much more room to work with when you are in six figures vs. trying to get a car that cost less than $20K and then sell enough of them to make a profit. The fact is anyone who has made a low cost car for high volume has cheaped out as that is about the only way you can build a car in this class with so little margin to work with. You will see the same if Elon ever makes a cheap affordable car. And no the 3 is not it as you will be paying around $50K-60K by the time you get the options you want. As for warranties when you only have built 50K cars most of all were sold in six figures you can warranty just about anything. In fact you should at that price point. There is no hero work there. Hell at work we warranty out all the expensive stuff as the margins permit it. Come back when Elon sells a $15K to 20K car and tell me the same story then! Or should I say if he ever makes a car in this segment.

Actually they all have about the same level of development but the technology is really not ready for prime time. The fact is the rest are using this technology for assist and not complete control as they know people are not disciplined to remain engaged to use it. They understand that the less involved a driver is in the act of driving the more than likely chance they will become even more distracted. Tesla took a major risk in putting this into the hands of owners that can do more damage than good to their rep. You can push technology a little too far before its time. This accident happened because the driver relied too much on the technology and became distracted and the technology in the car is still not to the point it can account for every action that can happen. the combination of both can result in catastrophic failure as shown with headless Hal here. This is like the fact we can have flying cars now but that does not mean it is a good idea nor that we want everyone flying. We have gotten to a point where humans and technology are not always a good fit due to discipline, expectations and the ability to sense or program all variables. The bottom line is if you have to put a disclaimer on the dash before you use a system it may not be a good idea to give it to just anyone in the public domain. Why so emotional? You think shouting and labeling people will make you more right? Sorry it does not work that way.

Stop distracting by waving the flag here. This is only about technology that is far from ready from prime time. First the systems are not infallible and can only read what is programmed and there are many more variables involved here. Second the Humans are not responsible enough to be trusted with it as they are easily distracted just as your post proves. God how do you even stay on the road. I expect you to spew out Squirrel mid sentence with the lack of focus here bud. You want to get into the political end of this then start a thread on it. Then we can discuss American and global economic survival in real terms now want to be terms. I as much as anyone would love everything made here and I would like to flap my arms and fly to but those things are out of my control and conditions prevent it from happening at this time. Note if the 3 is built in China odds are great it will be imported here at some point if Elon plans to sell as many cars as he claims. The Fremont plant has it's limitations. But his first issues is to sell more cars first.

Note the others are not putting out Beta units and letting the people do the development work. Tesla is no more important than any other new energy break through. The problem is people are putting all their chips on Tesla and if they go south in failure they could damage the entire EV moment. As of now they have helped but they are far from being out of the woods yet. The simple matter of making money is something that at some point the investors will demand. Oh and what I mean is a profit on products not carbon credits or income from government funding. I am not a Musk fan but I do not want to see Tesla fail as it will hurt all the EV makers in image with the public. This autonomous feature is just not ready for prime time. I think it is a mistake for makers to remove so much of the driver they become even more distracted while they still need to remain engaged as to what is going on if they are holding the wheel or not. God knows my braking system in my car gets enough false signals as it is. I had to shut it off as it was a total pain in the Ass. It really hates cars on side road joining the main road on a curve. It see's the car and then reacts to it though it is not even in my path of travel. I guess it is better it to work than not work like the Tesla but tell that to the guy behind me that got brakes checked.

Well as the Ford engineer told me once. We engineer to not make cars fool proof but we make them idiot proof. But even then never underestimate the abilities of an Idiot. We have a long way to go here as there are just so many variables that sensors and even the best electronics can not keep up with. The fact is even in cases of some of the greatest minds and advancements simple things can fail and not be accounted for with devastating effects. For example. The Space Shuttle has some of the greatest engineers in the world working on it. To conserve the air speed they decided to make the landing gear only come out at a specific air speed before it would land. Sounds like a great ideas and how could this go wrong. Well they forgot to account for a tail wind bringing the Shuttle in faster than expected and at a lower altitude then it should have been. The shuttle came with in 3 seconds of belly landing. This was kept quiet for a long time and they changed the gear to being put down by the crew. The fact is the human is the weak link where things can go wrong. But the Human is also the one link that can take control and make the right things happen when things do go wrong. In place of working to make these electronic systems better should we not be working more to get the humans to be better too. It is being reported this guy had a video of Harry Potter playing in the car. I feel we should remain keeping people engaged in driving as when we take them out and things go south they will be doing other things and not ready to take control. Most people are not disciplined enough to rely on these systems. This is why many people do not and should not fly. I think we are better left with driver assist systems to prevent mistakes but still keep the driver in the loop to the point they have to pay attention. If not we will have many more of these deals. Hell I have a braking system assist now that like to read cars on side roads on a curve and applies the brakes even if the car is not in my path and stopped on the side road. My wife asked me if I could shut that off the first day we owned the car. It is a pain in the Ass.

See this is my point on electric. It fits your needs and expectations. As for me it fails to meet mine. This is the problem with electric cars as it is today and will be till more advanced charging and batters are perfected. While some folks are fine with the slight lifestyle change waiting for a charge most at this point in most parts of the country are not. This is the big hang up in this deal. I expect things to improve but until the electric option offers the same things as what most expect or experience with a Gas powered vehicle most will stick with it. I get all the time just take a 30-45 min piss but for me and most travelers here between the oceans we drive and we drive now. Many people here in Ohio jump in the car and only stop to fill the tank all the way to Florida. Lets be honest there not much to do in Big Chimmney WV or Elja GA on a Wed afternoon. This is why I clearly believe gas will remain a major option into the future. Electric will continue to grow as well as other options in other applications. Only government regulations will change the speed of change and that would not go over big with any election so I expect they will let nature take it course. This is also why Chevy offers the Volt. It is the answer to those in the middle on this deal that want a electric car around town but still would like to travel in a normal fashion. If not for the price I would be interested in a Volt myself. I like the new one but for that price I would buy a Camaro. Sorry I am not a big Eviro guy. I am all for not dumping toxins in the water and such but I am not for damaging or economy by killing off power sources that we have not fully replaced yet. I tend to balance the environment with the economy as it can be done with cooperation on both sides. Also these folks who want to ban meat due to cow farts. Screw em I am going to grill a steak right now. LOL! Agree on the Cow Farts, I love myself a grilled Steak as well as all other forms of Protein. Vegans can go blow their veggie butts out elsewhere. Steak medium rare for me! I have stated in the past that I think the best thing GM could do is use the VOLT power train and put it into their whole product line. I would love a Suburban with a 100 Mile battery pack for city driving and a generator for long distant driving. I view all EV's for the most part at this time to be inner city transportation and to give clean air to all those that love to eat on the sidewalk next to the belching traffic. I am a suburban boy who loves to get away to the mountains to play. I understand what you are saying is a balance between the tree hugger and the commercialization of commerce. I just don't see a SUV or CUV using the Volt system. The large frontal area and lack of real aerodynamics like we have in a Volt would really limit range. At some point I can see it but right now where aero is a key part of the cars range I just don't see it happening. Even cars like the Tesla X are really aero and not tall. It is more like a tall car than a SUV. Note the rear bumper corners contributed much to the Volt range on the last model. When they are working details like this the large area of a SUV just are no match. Even the exposed suspension creates much drag and it would be difficult to do a belly pan. Many wish for this combo just as GM but we are just not there yet with batteries to pull it off. My point with economics and green energy often falls on deaf ears. So many have bought the line that Green energy will save the day economically and some day it may but right now there is a high price to pay. The big vote in England was not just about open boarders but also high energy cost. England was directed to go green in a big way and this took away much of their cheap energy and the average person is really paying the price for it no pun intended. Their industry also was dealing with high cost. Germany is struggling with their energy as they have found the wind is not enough to cover their needs nor is it cheap in the short term. My dilemma is you have people in government pushing agendas and not worried about the cost to businesses. In turn they are representing people who are also collecting money from the government funding their green companies and their lobbyist are paying back those who support them enriching them on the way. I see much conflict of interest here just as in other areas too. I know coal and other industries also have their lobbies too but it has to stop where it starts to hurt our ability to produce products and items in this country and in turn costing jobs. You want to sell people on green energy you do not punish them first and then expect them to accept it. This is a deal where all parties need to work together and turn off the personal gains in the changes. Protect business and jobs while working to protect the environment. Just watching the news tonight and reading the web we are so far off track on honest reporting and just given the news and not an agenda. Even the government you can see how they are no impartial anymore. The corruption is front and center and yet people pay no attention as they are lied to in their faces. Things like the FEC on the debate charges or where Bill Clinton entered the AG plane is just flat wrong. I don't care what party you just do not do things like this. To be hones I feel the AG was the victim here but Bill knows better than that but he has gotten away with so much? We have seen the same on the right too and I do not absolve anyone of doing wrong.

See this is my point on electric. It fits your needs and expectations. As for me it fails to meet mine. This is the problem with electric cars as it is today and will be till more advanced charging and batters are perfected. While some folks are fine with the slight lifestyle change waiting for a charge most at this point in most parts of the country are not. This is the big hang up in this deal. I expect things to improve but until the electric option offers the same things as what most expect or experience with a Gas powered vehicle most will stick with it. I get all the time just take a 30-45 min piss but for me and most travelers here between the oceans we drive and we drive now. Many people here in Ohio jump in the car and only stop to fill the tank all the way to Florida. Lets be honest there not much to do in Big Chimmney WV or Elja GA on a Wed afternoon. This is why I clearly believe gas will remain a major option into the future. Electric will continue to grow as well as other options in other applications. Only government regulations will change the speed of change and that would not go over big with any election so I expect they will let nature take it course. This is also why Chevy offers the Volt. It is the answer to those in the middle on this deal that want a electric car around town but still would like to travel in a normal fashion. If not for the price I would be interested in a Volt myself. I like the new one but for that price I would buy a Camaro. Sorry I am not a big Eviro guy. I am all for not dumping toxins in the water and such but I am not for damaging or economy by killing off power sources that we have not fully replaced yet. I tend to balance the environment with the economy as it can be done with cooperation on both sides. Also these folks who want to ban meat due to cow farts. Screw em I am going to grill a steak right now. LOL!

Sergio has starved Chrysler auto divisions horribly. He has no interest in them and pretty much distroyed their futures unless someone comes in now and turns it around. The 200 and Dart were below what they needed. Chrysler tried to fix the Fiat corporation platforms with better styling but it was hard to cover the bones under the skin. They fooled little other than those looking for a good discount on a new car. The RWD lines only got a shot in the arm with better interiors and some PR from the Hell Cat. These were only due to Chrysler and not Fiat trying to stretch the line as they still have not been given the money to properly to replace them. I expect even if they end up using the Alfa platform they will be a disappointment much as the Alfa is starting to prove to be. The delayed and often quality issues are already proving that while you can dress an Alfa up the quirky nature and quality still prevails. The Viper has suffered from the lack of spending pure and simple. The Chrysler engineers did what they could but the car is much like a C3 Vette that has gone too long with out major changes. The low volume just seals the deal. Whole the Corvette continue to move on with better and faster development even into the Mid engine now the Viper is becoming a retro car no by plan either. Again Sergio has failed this company. It is hard enough to sell sports cars long term but anymore you need to keep moving the sticks forward or you will find the car will only live 5-10 years anymore. Just look at all the sports cars we have had under $100K and how few live beyond the 5-10 year span.

It is not irrelevant as Electric will improve but it is not going to take over the entire industry in all areas. It will still take all variations of energy to meet the needs and desires of customers. While technology will improve we are still decades from infrastructure that will meet the needs to most people. Hell there are still many places with out cell coverage yet today and will not have it in the near future. Not everyone lives in a metro area. I don't think it is unrealistic to think that in 2050 every new car sold will be electric. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen in time. Electricity is more readily available than gas also. And electricity has better performance too. Cost is the obstacle, eventually they will overcome that. To be totally honest there will be a place for many forms of power. Electric will grow but unless there is some major advancement in charging times and ability to charge just about anywhere. Electric cars to many owners are life style changing to live with them and until that is handled it will remain a hurtle. When will these changes come. Next year? 10 Years or 75 years. You can not predict advancements. More money is going in and will increase the odds but there is no way to predict it. As it is most market watchers that are stable and intelligent agree that Gas will still be a part of the market for a good time into the future unless the government out laws it like some EU countries are trying. Just received my EGO Electric Blower, weed wacker and lawn mower today. http://egopowerplus.com/collections/products All are pure cordless electric and uses a 56V Lithium-Ion 7.5Ah battery. The battery recharges in less than 30 min and yet I have over an hour of use in the lawn mower or almost 1 1/2hrs of use in the blower or weed wacker. I love who quiet they are and yet how fast they get the job done. Truly some companies are figuring out how to get a battery recharged fast. Much of it has to do with the size and the capacity and the usage of the battery. The variable change the game depending on the use and needs. While they have gotten better there is still much that is needed and expected from Batteries. Now see here I could never use a electric anything other than a weed eater. Mowing here is longer generally than most charges will last. We can mow here for hours. Also leaf blowing in the fall can also take hours. We also would not stop for 30 min when we can gas up in 30 seconds. Electric is not a one size fits all for everyone. On that note I saw a very nice looking Volt today on the road. I have to admit the new Volt is a stunning car inside and out. The plate said Gas LOL. It is product like this that will warm hearts to electric as the styling is not science fair like and the abilities fit more lives at this point. Get the price down to a Cruze and people will really start to pay attention. The Volt at this point is not a lifestyle changer as a pure electric can be to many.