hyperv6

As someone who drives a 290 HP Eco daily in a 3200 pound car and I would not want to be pulling a pound more. I know well what that combo can do. I love my Turbo Eco but would have interest of one in a Camaro as it presently is. The Camaro is a great car and the Eco Tubo is a great engine but they do not work together. A smaller Alpha with a a tubo eco and RWD would be like a Solstice that real people could use and drive daily and haul things as well as a$$. I think what many miss here is the performance gains of a lighter car. Imagine the present brakes handling with a a lighter package. Weight redustions provide performance bigger engines alone can't give. Too often many here forget or do not understand less is often more!

But you do not note that the Hyundia is not even fully developed with things like DI and other advances thew Camaro has. Lets face it the V6 Camaro is at the limit on MPG witht he present tech. IF GM was not worried about the future they would have not been considering a Eco Turbo last fall. The Camaro is a great car and my own personel choice. But I as well as many here we are no longer the majority in the public. We complain about GM not meet the market needs but this is where the future is going and they need to move in that direction. Kids today in their little imports and turbo 4 cylinders could care less about the V8 engines. let alone a V65 in a heavy car. They are the buying future like it or not. THese are the buyers who had a WRX poster on the wall not a Z28. The Camaro now is meeting the Goverment numbers but soon even what it does now will not be enough. THere are even those who are willing to push the MPG higher and with the Majority held by one party it could happen if enough agree with them. The key to the future is smaller lighter RWD coupe in the market. THe drive for RWD is directly to the new Drifting trend. The import guys want affordable REW packaged with the engines they love. It just so happens this kind of car fits the future better than a large V8 car in several ways. Like I said they Hyundia is the trend of where this is all going. Others are watching and planning and I hope GM is also planning to be at the party on time and not late as the norm.

The fact is the Camaro is the best of the old trend of heavy big power RWD cars. The other fact is the Hyundia is the first in the new trend of light affordable fund to drive coupes. Everyone is watching this and with the new higher fuel economy and emissions coming the smaller car is what they all will move too. Think of the Hyundia as a modern 64 Mustange that will set the new other will copy and even GM join. I suspect if the Alpha makes it we will see a new Camaro using this trend. It is either adapt or die. Young people today would rather buy light imports with turbos vs old V8 coupes. Yes they are crazy but their sales count too. GM needs to take money from anyone not just the shrinking field of traditional buyers.

The funny thing is they did make 1/18 Saturn Diecast. They used to sell them at the dealers. Auto Art made a real nice one but they were not great sellers. The big key is there is equity in the older names. GM at times has pondered the return of Lasalle several time. and could return a limited run of Pontiac at a later time. The niche thing could come back years form now when they can afford to do it right [maybe]. Odds are not good it will ever happen but it would remain a viable option. I would not be suprised to see at least a Pontiac bases show car 20 years from now if GM survives that long.

It is plain and simple the Saturn name and Dealer network are worth more than the cars. IT would be so simple for a car company from China to come in and set up shop in the already establised dealer network with an ewstablised name and staff. The Saturn cars are worthless. Also many in the public do not have Saturn as a GM on their minds as much. The Pontiac dealers that stand alone if the number is correct is at 35 so selling them off would leave little to who ever buys them in a dealer network and the car at Pontiac are not worth buying by the public let alone a coperation. The entire line needs updated accept for the G8. The big problem is how much GM wants for Saturn and who would really want to start a car company in this economy. You would have to be nuts till people start buying again.

The problem is the G6 makes less profit per unit than the G6 and the G6 is leased and fleeted in big numbers for the last how many years vs two for the Bu. Stop seeing Bu and drive a LT or LTZ V6 Six Speed. I would give up my 04 GTP in a second for it. It is a much better car all the way around and is not that bad of a looking car with the right 18 inch wheels. Like it or not it is a much better car than nay FWD Pontiac made. As for the G5 there are much less made vs the Cobalt. I have been to the factory and have seen the numbers as it is not a big seller like it should be. THis is not about market share or volume anymore it is about profit. You can sell a million Pontiac's but if your not making money why bother. The cold truth is Chevy could make it with out GM on pickups alone and has done so for years. GM is not dumb for not selling but anyone who would buy them in times like this needs a shrink. Toyots has shown a 40% + drop in sales this is no time to start making cars unless you have a lot of money to lose. I may be wrong but the only Pontiac worth saving may just be a Chevy here in time. Once GM works out the next month our two I suspect the G8 to be here as a Caprice in the future. Holden needs the money on the imports and if yoiu have Chevy police cars here what more would it take to bring in some for the public when the time is right. GM is not going to be stupid to say they will have a rwd Zeta Caprice till they unload all the G8's sitting around unsold. Just on resale alone most people would opt for the near identical Chevy.

The car that went to the crusher was not worth saving but the interior and tanny set up were in good shape. the body and frame were beyond saving. With the weak market for these cars he just never considered saving the parts back then. 14.1 with the right geas on a good run would be right but the average 428 was more closer to 15 sec. Now that is not to say it would not peg the speed at over 130 MPH. We built and ran a lot of 428's in everything from birds to GTO's. Most would take little to get into the 12 and 11's if you could get them to hook up. We had one we cracked the ring lands on the stock cast pistons at the track. It would not hurt the block but it would run on six cylinders. THis was a 65 GTO with a stock 400 Tranny, vaccum secondary tri power, ram air IV cam and a 12 bolt Chevy with a 3:08 gear. It also had full exhaust and street tires with no stall torque converter. On 6 cylinders it pulled a 14:01. We took it home and were good at taking the engine out and had it on the floor in 30 MIN. They still have this engine and several other 428's. One that was in a 11 sec GTO is now detuned with a milder cam and stock intake is in a Jag sedan. The V12 droped a vlave seat for the second time so in went the 428 about 20 years ago and it is still there. It is faster and much more reliable. You can also change the water pump with out removing the hood. We used to find a lot of 428.s in Bonnies and Cats! Buy the cars for nothing and rip the engine out. Drop in a 350 and sell it.

I am not total anti goverment. THey should be their to provide the basics. But when they want to run my life from when I am born till I die I have an issue with that. Also it is not my place to let people not be responsble for themselves. I don't mind someone getting help but lets not make them too comfortable so they will want to stand up on their own. Also I have a grat issue on waste. My wife works for the county and if they were a company they would have gone bankrupt long ago. THe public is upset with the bail out but we do that to the goverment every time they run out of money and they raise out taxes. Too much Goverment control leads to China, N Korea, Iran etc. Real fun places. I just would like to see some common sense come back to goverment and society. Most people can name their own senator so they are willing to buy what ever anyone tells them. There just is no accountablilty anymore in Society.

Unless you already had production facilities and a car line like in China and want to break into the American market you would have to be nuts to buy Pontiac or any other car company right now. The Sales of Pontiac would end in even a worst ending in my veiw. Imagine the Pontiac name on a Koren Car! Oh Never mind Pontiac already did that one too. LOL!

Not that rare of a car and had low compressing starting in 71. I may be wrong but I do not know of a solid lifter 400 available then. The best of the 69-72 was the 1969 390 HP 428 HO. It was optional with a rare 4 speed. I have a lot of miles in one of these and was a fast top end car but it was not a GTO because of the extra weight. It was respectable but not all out fast. I had a buddy with one that had a 4 speed and leather interior. THe car was wasted and went to the junk yard years ago. THat car would be worth some bucks today. The only valuable car out of those years are the 70-72 Hurst cars. THey were white and gold and a rare black and gold. The 69-72 GP's are the most appreciated and under valued of the Pontiacs in my opinion. Every time I see a clean one for sale I get to thinking about it.

It kills me how always when the goverment does something it takes more people than the UAW to do it. They will have to raise taxes just to pay for all the people over seeing the people doing the real work. LOL!

The 6000 STE in 1985 had the same 2.8 V6 as the Fiero and was the highest 2.8 other than The Fiero. At the time Pontiac was getting 140 HP in the Fieor and a little less in the STE because of different exhaust manifolds. My dad Eurosport was only something like 125 HP with FI. Lets face it Pontiac was at their best when they broke the GM rules for Racing, Displacmanrt and product development. They were at their worst when they had to use what GM would give them or was forced upon them. Wangers is a nice guy and all but we also have to keep in mind he is a blow hard marketing guy too. While he did many things right he also had his share of failures too. Read his book Glory days and you will see many of his own failures too. Delorean with Bunkies support is what made Pontiac what it was in the 60's. Johin Schinella and PMD marketing was the driving force of Pontiac in the 70's with the TA styling when power was lost. Schinella and a hand full of others shook things up in the 80's with the fight against GM with the Fiero and a hand full of other cars. Lets face it the best Ta in the 80's was the Turbo Pace car Pontiac did behind GM's back. But the came up short with the lack of funds to make these cars right fromt he start. Thanks Roger! Once Losh got in the rules were no longer broken and Pontiac remained some what just following GM's lead and what ever hand me downs from Chevy till Lutx arrived. Lutz with little more than support of Wagner was able to build a Solstice and GTO with mostly little to no support for GM funds and the board. Pontiac made mistakes but the lack of GM support has always been there. This is a case of where is GM over it's history worked more as one corperation vs many independent companies they would have been much stonger and reactive to change in all divisions. Imagine the profits in the Glory days if GM worked as one with little waste. If he was able to fix the Malibu imagine if he was give the proper chance to fix the G6. You can't build the Empire State building out of 2x4's and Lutz was limited in how much he could do for Pontiac with so little funding ans support.

I agree with some but not all. Pontiac is to blaime for some but they onmly could do in many cases what GM let them do. Pontiac has had a history of fighting to get what they needed or wanted. A good point to prove this is the many historic cars of the 60's such as the GTO were cars Pontiac broke the rules GM handed down> Delorean pissed a lot of GM people off but he sold a lot of cars. THey burned him in the end becuse he did not play by their rules. The Firebird would have been much more than it was if Delorean was not smacked down and told to use the Camaro with some tuning. Later on the Fiero was a sports car idea they had to sell to GM as a commuter car after GM tried to kill it several times. The Fiero failed for the most part because GM never supported the car and it took 4 years to get the car right on the money Pontiac was given. When GM killed the car the hard feeling with in GM have lasted even to this day. I know one marketing manager who was there that will not speak about it publicly because it could hurt is future. While the G names did not help the old names became damaged with poor products and poor reps in the general publics eye. The fact is you can call the present G6 a Grand AM and the present G5 a Sunbird and they are still not performance cars and still not as good as Pontiac deserved. There is so much that could be debated here but there is enough blaime to go around here for all to share. The damage started years ago. The biggest blaime will go to GM as they just never gave Pontiac the support it needed. It always had a history being the second banana to Chevy. Wangers may claim Pontiac did not give the STE the proper engine but where was it to come from since they used the best V6 GM had at the time? The 3800 had not evolved to the degree it would reach and the STE V6 was as good of the 60 degree eingine they offered at the time. Pontiac had a Turbo V6 2.9 but GM again did not support them and killed the engine. The late years I agree marketing was failed and flawed but still the product was just not up to the standard it needed to be. Pontiac needed to be better in all ways than Chevy but they were only part better with the same drive trains that could be had for less at Chevy. Either way there is not much point to this now. Hind sight is 20/20. To blaime Lutz is a little short sighted. The only 3 cars he had much say over were the Solstice, G8 and GTO. Considering he had no money to do much with the GTO I can understand the lacking. The G6 and GP could only be tuned a little By Bob as they were done by the time he arrived. Also cars like the G3 and G3 were not cars he wanted. Even Bob could not do what all he wanted here due to tthe lack of support of GM.

I agree with the sad but Pontiac except for two models has come to a shabby end. The cars like the G3-5-6 and Vibe are not what I call performance cars. Also if you count the minivans and SUV's Pontiac should have never had If it were not for the G8 and Solstice what are we really losing? By the way Camino might want to push for the return of the G8 ST as an El Camino. Lets face it the end of Pontiac was already in the cards when the G8 ST was pulled. Offered as a Chevy this vehicle would take little to bring in and make a profit at low volumes. The ST is done and the Chevy front end would bolt right on! The big problem is GM will want to limit models. They are working to remove them so adding may prove to be difficult. It is just a wild though and I admit a long shot at best on the ST but still may have a very slim chance.

I don't expect the banks to get that much control. I can see the goverment letting them run the companies to regain their outstanding money but the goverment would retain the right to keep GM together. The goverment need GM to remain to support the UAW and the suppliers. Other wise the will have a very pissed off donating group and more unemployed. In the end I could see the banks get the day to day control over the company with the stiplulation form the goverment that they rebuild GM not sell them off. The banks are not in a place where they can make the call. It is either do as the goverment says or else. But this goes on so many things could happen. Who is to say someone like VW or other MFG comes in and buys into to GM in some kind of limited deal like Fiat. I mean some crazy things can still happen. At this point I don't think anyone could say what GM will be doing in a month from now. It is going to be a roller coaster for the Month of May.

I remember there was a time they said there would never again be a Ferrari without a gated shifter on the floor after the 400 mess of the 70's Well has anyone looked in a new Ferrari lately? Never say never. Either way I see the C6 being around till at least 2016 and a lot can happen by then. I would keep an Eye on the Pratt & Miller team as long as they race the Vette is save. Jake will not go quietly! Also these regs will not just effect our sports cars but everyones. So V8's V10 and V12s may all be a dying breed accept for only the very expensive cars where the buyers don't care about price or CAFE gas guzzler taxes. I expect we will always have performance in one form or another. It will never die we will just be forced to do it in different ways.

It is not political bias it is the plain fact that the goverment has higher fuel standards now and some in that goverment are pushing for even higher. Also the emission rules are pressing higher too and will change for even stricter rules. The Dems are the ones who recieve most of the lobby money and support formt he eviro green groups so they have to support their views. Even more Repubs are now involved in the green embrace now. It is getting harder and harder to meet the CAFE strandard with the cars now and it is only going to get worse. Smaller lighter and more efficent cars are what companies are going to be foreced too. As for the restrictive eviro laws being pressed on the after market start reading the SEMA web site and the pending law they have and are fighting. More and more some of these are now being passed. Once they are in they will be near impossible to remove. The fact is while it would not be as bad d if Mc cain had won it still would not have been good as Washington in gerneral is pushing this more and more regarless what side you sit. Unless GM can sell a lot of alturnitve energy cars things will be a little tight for large heavy and powerful cars. Too many in this country do not realize all that is really going on now let alone what could happen if left unchallanged. You need to face the fact that the politicians you and I support do not support everything we like or want. I have yet to find a politician I support in all things. We as auto enthusiast need to let ourselves be heard as if we remain silent we will have no one to blaime but ourselves if we lose the products we love. To some they call it an over reaction, I would rather over react than lose any of my rights to buy the vehicle I want.

Pontiac lost my sales last year to Chevy. The Solstice was not a year round winter car and I did not want a 4 door. I wanted non V8 performance and had to look to Chevy and found it.

I expect the next election for house and senate seats to see a lot of changes. The questions are how many laws will be passsed that will effect us in the time remaining. These laws not only effect my hobby but how I make my living. I am just waiting for Al Gore or someone else to try to connect this trumped up swine flu deal as a fall out from global warming. I am not joking as I am almost positive someone will try. It is that out of control. Just look at the little florecent bulbs they are forcing on us. If you drop one the goverment has a 15 step guide line on how to clean them up as they contain a very small amount of mercury. They are also improted from China and the present incandecent bulbs are made in KY. I wonder how clean the container ship is that brings in these bulbs and how much fuel it takes to bring in these bulbs?

This is what I have been warning about. the goverment funding is not what is doing this it is the goverment regs. People before the election claimed they wanted change and I warned you may want to becareful what you wish for. In the next 10 years the cars will be smaller and V8 will be expensive or very hard to get. 35 MPG and Emission rules are going to remove the fun cars from the line up. Even cars like my Ecotech Turbo may be a hard to find engine. The party supported by the Green left are in charge and now will have a controling majority. We will see change and it is not change the auto enthusiast will like. Not only will the auto companies be pressed here but the performance aftermarket will be in the sights of these people. You just needs to check some of the laws that have been attempted around the country that we will soon find on the plate of the federal goverment. Law controling the changing of any non stock parts including wheels have been attempted. Yes tires and wheel have been targeted by green groups as they drive up green house gasses because they create more drag on a car and make it less efficent. I have been told this kind of things will not happen by some in other threads here but it is getting closer every day. If your a car enthusiast and don't take this seriously you had better wake up. There was a green group report that said fat people also contribute to global warming in serveral ways. Next you weight will become a goverment factor. Taxes on soft drinks and other tactics will attempted. The green groups are going to change our lives if we like it or not. I am sure we all want clean air but we also want it done in a efficent practiacal matter. Not the manner that they want to force unresonable matters on our lives.

The question is how many here crying over the loss of Pontiac has bought one new in the last I will open it up to 25 years? Have you bought one? So many complain about the loss but few have shown real support with their money. If GM can't sell many here who think it is a crime to kill Pontiac then who would they sell them too? I have had a new 1985 Fiero, 1990 GP, 1997 SSEI and a 2004 GTP Comp G in the last 25 years. All were good cars but the 1990. The big reason they did stand out were the rest of cars from GM for the most part was so bad. Chevy had things like the Celeberty, Olds the Ciera and Buick the Century need I say more. I still have two of the Pontiacs yet but I moved on so the end is not effecting me as much as it will some others. I did reall y did not leave Pontiac they left me when they lost the performance. My daily driver is a 13 second 1/4 mile car that gets 30 MPG highway and can haul a 9 foot ladder inside. It wears a bow tie. I will miss Pontiac but not as much as I would have a few years ago. I was brought home from the Hospital in a 1960 Ventura as wa smy son in the SSEI. I have lapped the indy speed way at over 100 MPH in a Pontiac and even won my class in the largest Pontiac show in the country 7 times. I have been a Pontiac club president and even had one of my Pontiac's Featured in several Pontiac magazines. I own rare prototype Pontiac parts. have driven nearly all the great Pontiacs from the past including SD cars and most years of GTO. I guess I see it as I will always have this heritage and back ground with the older cars but the new cars have done nothing for me and I see few really collecting any other than the G8 and Solstice. I may lose future cars but at the rate they were going I do not see much coming anyway. GM will own the name and if things are right a niche brand could always comeback if they have the right product for the time. A performance car that fits the market not their past would be ideal and could be sold at a Buick dealer later on. There is no reason they could return any past GM car line if they have the right product or a need. But like Olds is there really a need for them today....No! Anyone else here have any show of support of a new Pontiac in the last 25 years?

Not hate as I love Pontiac! Just some of us don't let our love for a brand stand in the way of clouding our understanding what is really at stake. It is like having 5 GTO's to restore but you can only afford to do 3 of them correctly.

I think we have here more Pontiac fans than you will find anywhere else other than a Pontiac site. I think if you polled people here most would say they love Pontiac and don't want to see them go. What I would love to see how many here have owned a Pontiac new Pontiac in the lst 10 years. I also would like to see how many own more than one Pontiac presently and bought it new. I have two that I still own that were bought new. One in the last 5 years. The truth is I look at this also as the general public does. I own a Comp G GP the top line in 2004 and it is a nice car but after spending time in a Malibu it is a much better car for a lot less money and that is what a lot in the public see. THe 3. 6 is near as fast as my 3.85 SC and alot smoother with the 6sp. The Bu is quieter and better riding. It also handles as well on the 18" tires. If my mother would offer to trade me for my GTP I would in as heart beat. The truth is even amoung many Pontiac fans today Pontiac does not make their favorite car anymore. Nor do they make one they really like outside a limited production Solstice and G8. You can cry pout and pich a fit but the truth is the majority of American car buyers are hard pressed to consider GM anymore let alone Pontiac. Right now Pontiac has been a second string division and GM needs the money to save what they realistically have a chance to save. At this point the only car woth keeping is a G8 and Holden can fix that eas and make it a Caprice. Remember it is really a Holden its not really a Pontiac. The last true full Pontiac was the 1988 Fiero 4 cylinder. It was the last Pontiac only platform they offered that had a true Pontiac engine. Since then they were nothing but a better optioned Chevy. I should know I have owned many of these cars and still have two in the garage. I know a few don't want to agree but it is hard to prove this move is something that did not happen overnight and would not take a lot of money, time and a major change in public preception to to avoid. An average guy knew this was coming but the question was was is soon or as late as 2015. I think the economy just moved it upo more than anything. There are many things we can blaime on Obama but this one was on the way before he was elected with the lack of ireal investment in Pontiac for the last 15 years. Witht he way things are I see other models and even brands that may not make it out of this economy. How much longer will Chrysler hold on and even Ford retain Mercury? Mercury is Fords Pontiac.

If you want a Pontiac so bad just do what GM has been doing and take a Chevy and slap a Pontiac emblem on it. LOL! I do not like what the goverment is doing either but Pontiacs trouble started in and around 1979. If Pontiac was to have been saved the changes needed to come long ago. When They lost their identity and just basically offered what Chevy offered was bad enough but when Chevy started to offer more perfromance the writing was on the wall. Let face it they only have two cars worth a damn and both are limited sales. The G8 could be made into a Caprice and live on as a Chevy with little drama. The Solstice is cool but is it making enough money to warrant it to live on as a Chevy for the 4 more years it was set to live? As for the rest of the cars let em die as they are not even worthy of a Chevy badge. It is time to wake up and realize GM is that bad off and Pontiac was really that damaged. If you were so worried and cared for Pontiac why was there no complains in the 80's when they pretty much set the tend of Pontiac's decline with cars like the Sun Bird and Lemans. Even cars we thought were good like the Bonneville and Grand Prix today don't look so good now.

Too much damage too little money. Even in niche status it is a little too late. Lets face it GM has too little money to even do Niche right. I think you will see little outrage from the non Pontiac public. That is very sad!