hyperv6

This we fully agree on. For GM to improve they need to change this. I hope with the office cleaning it will bring a better way of getting GM to work as a corperation and not just a bunch of divisions. Everyone on the same page would solve a lot of issues. Family infighting is just not a good thing on any level.

Like I said Pontiac getting short changed was nothing new They have always had to fight for what they got over the year. It just got to the point there was too few people left to fight for them. The fight over the G8 was only the last in many Pontiac battles that can be documented over the years. The Fiero fight was one of the worst. Not only did Pontiac go against many in GM to build the car. Pontiac sold their soul to the UAW in the Pontiac MI plant to build it. When GM pulled the car out from under them it left many bitter people on all sides even up to today. It took over 20 years before many would even talk much about it. One of the program managers I Know will still not say anything in public today because of what may be said to him by GM. He said he may speak out once he retires in a few years. Even the Firebird fight in the 60's got very ugly too. As for the list I'm not on the Dear John list, nor do I care to join. I have better things to do.

Sorry I did not consider that sabotage I just considered that the GM way of doing things and part of the broken system they were. I guess we see the same thing but just call it different things. The same thing happend in the P body program when the Vette people saw the new plans for the Fiero at a time they were worried about getting the go ahead for a C5. THey feared lost sales to a lower priced sports car would hurt their chances of approval. Also much of the same divsion infighting went on for years. Just look at Pontiac in the 60's. I was told this face to face by John Schinella. "Chevy sells more cars so Chevy get more say". This was on a evening he was mad a John Middlebrook for not showing the 1990 Fiero. He showed me photos that were not to have been let out of GM. The Vette team working to finish off the Fiero was also confirmed by several other GM people who worked in the program at the end. I saw the paperwork for the last meeting and it was pretty much a done deal when they walked into the room. They let Pontiac present their plan then killed it once they were done. Often Pontiac's short comings can be lead right back to Chevy. Thanks for the reply and having character. While we may not always agree, you always have my respect!

What fued? I just want to know what he view is on this. I tend to ignore most of his post so I may have missed what his thoughts on this were. I never really heard the sabotage angle. As for his staying at GM I just wonder what changed his mind. He was telling us GM was going down and then tells us he is staying. I wonder if the future outlook good enough to convince him to stay.

Ok Sabotage.... Who, What, Why, When, and Were? It ain't bragging if you can back it up. I would like to hear your smoking gun on the grassy noll version. By the way I thought you also stated several times here that GM was going under in 3-5 years? Why the new hitch?

Untill we start messing with numbers the EPA or SAE needs to set a world standard that all cars and all MFG can meausred there vehicles by. Untill then they are just numbers.

No sabotage just failure of the old GM system to know or understand what to do with Pontiac.

Hell we will have G3's for years to come with as many they have left. There are only three Pontiacs built since the last bird worth having. As a Comp G owner I can't wait to trade it off in a year or so. Not a bad car but far from great. Good thing I got it new $10,000 off sticker it will help on the resale value loss.

Sorry in the above comment I should have stated that 40,000 units for the G8 were possible. I believe Pontiac never expected it would sell that that many. But again because of the deal with Holden they still made money on tha car. Not a major investment into it on Pontiacs behalf and most of the burden of cost was on Holden. To call the GTO and G8 a failure is a little harsh. The honest assesement is they were more of a disapointment than a total failure based on more than just product issues.

Lutz comments were at the release of the new G8 and were directed at the weak points that were clear to everyone. He also held a different veiw untill he had to change it to promote the new Zeta. Bob is not dumb and will do what it takes to move or promote a car. "First, it was introduced at the end of a design cycle, making it seem dated despite never having been seen on these shores. It was also overpriced and poorly distributed (too many in the midwest, too few in SoCal, where the drift kids are). 2004 15,725 2005 11,069 2006 13,948 First, it was introduced at the end of a design cycle, making it seem dated despite never having been seen on these shores. It was also overpriced and poorly distributed (too many in the midwest, too few in SoCal, where the drift kids are). We're right on board with the Lutz These numbers were not far off from what was intended. The truth is the new Mustang coming out stole a lot of thunder with its styling and cheaper price. A true failure is more like a Lincoln Backwood truck a few years back they only sold in the hundreds if I recall. The bottom line is GM did not take a loss here and made money and sold 75% of the intended possible cars that could be imported. Some here who have a anti Holden bias and want you to only see what they want you to see. The GTO was not a perfecty plan but also was not a failure. Also note most of these cars were never sold at massive discounts. Only a few of the remaining 06 cars were discounted much and not much at that. Today many lower mileage cars are still holding their value. The ones that are cheap are usally beat up pretty well. Just for kicks the G8 sold in 2008 were 15,002 units. Not the intended 40,000 units they had hoped. 2009 units 15,691. I think the G8 fell farther below the number of expected sales but I would also not term the car a failure either. Just bad timing and planning by GM.

To be honest it was not a flop it just left some wanting more. The facts are it made money even in low numbers. Lutz came in and was faced with a division with no RWD performance and no plans or money to make one. He looked to Holden and got it done cheap, profitable and in a very short time. It was only to carry Pontiac till the Zeta arrived. But the Zeta was delayed not do to Lutz'e ideas but do to cost redesigns. They were so short money the true duel exhaust and hood scoopes had to wait till the second year as GM had so little money avaiable they could not be done in 04. The GTO did what it was ment to do Provide Pontiac with RWD performance ASAP, buy time till the Zeta came and not cost GM money. It did all three not counting placing the Zeta delay on Pontiac. What was a failure was a GM system the killed the Firebird with no performance plan in place. Then they bring Lutz in to fix it but with what. No plans for a real perfomance car and no money to make one. Not many could have even pulled the Holden deal off or provide a RWD car any cheaper or faster. If he had not done this and waited for a Bird it would have never happend.

THe Pontiac crowd at one point was if it was a post 1979 Post 400 car it was not a Pontiac. Then thing began to mellow. The Pontiac people began to embrace the Firebird and Trans Ams of the 3rd 4th gen. In time the supercharged cars were also accepted. They did not and still are ok with FWD as long as it was a performance car. The bottom line is if the Pontiac was not a real performance car they did not care about it. People bought Pontiac in mostly for the performace image of ability of each car. The last Pontiacs few where real performance cars as they could not go like hell or even turn better than an average car. It is just sad if you could not sell a Pontiac to a Pontiac fan who do you think will buy them? I expected a little grumble but we had little I have a 1985 Fiero SE that I have added the Herb Adams suspension, T tops and my own ground FX too. I also have a 1990 Fiero Nose badge that was documented and was one of the few to get out of Pontiac. I have almost always had a positive response by most at the Pontiac events. Most come by and say I like what you have done. Many will stop by and tell how they either had one or still have one and loved it. The funny thing is the 1979 Trans Am is often considered the last real Pontiac but many forget the 1974-88 Fiero 4 cylinder was the last true 100% Pontiac. Note it was based on the P body only sold by Pontiac, the 4 cylinder Iron Duke was a Pontiac engine and the car was built in Pontiac Michigan. Even the cars like the old GTO shared frames and other major parts with other GM cars as well assembly lines. The new GTO, SSEI. Solstice, GTP and G8 all were well accepted by the large crowd as each represented real performance. Now the Aztek and if a G6 had shown up I would say unless it was tubed out no one would care. Many GTP owners are racing and are fast. There have even been a few in the 11's and One in the 10's. They have gotten respect. This is my go cart. I have had it 25 years this week and have enjoyed it. I bought it new when I could not afford the insurance on a TA bad then because of my age. I get this out for a little open top time and go to a cruise in or show once in a while. I have a lot of Pontiac buddies and play with their old iron often. One day I will get back to one of the older cars but keep the Fiero. In fact today I was tinkering on a old 64 GTO today. Once my buddy gets it ready I will take it and detail it for him as long as I get to steal it from him for the weekend. A tripower and 4 speed can be a lot of fun.

I spent yesterday at the Pontiac Nationals and Summit Raceway Park in Norwalk Ohio. This is the largest gathering of Pontiacs in the world. With over 500 Show cars and 500 plus Pontiac powered race cars this is the big time Pontiac event. I went expecting a wake or a lot of people mad at GM. I found few brought up the end of Pontiac. If they did say anything they were not thilled with the loss but most of them have not cared for many of the recent pontiacs for years. Note many of Pontiac's best sellers from the last 30 years were not on the show field. There were many G8, GTO and Solstice but no G6, Sunbird, Vibe, G5, Grand Am, or SUV based vehicles other than one Aztek. Either way while most were not thrilled with the Pontiac loss they were not as upset as many on the web. I did nail down my class for the 5 time 1st place awards in a row. I have 3 more first and 2 more seconds to go with these from previous years. This has been a well run and fun well judged events and one of the few I show at anymore.

7 series? How can Cadillac do this when they do not get the goverment free pass on the mileage mileage standards like BMW. Unless they give GM a pass too this will be a hard thing to overcome. As for the Buick again lets wait and see just what it before we slit a wrist.

I agree. In this class as long as it get resonable mileage. Is smooth, Quiet and has enogu power to pull out on the freeway most people will be fine with this. They do not expect high mileage but want something resonable. THey also could care less about 0-60 times as long as the car is not strugging to get up to speed. This is not a Grand National and does not claim to be a performace car. The thing GM needs to worry about is that they like the car enough to buy it. Styling anf comfort count more in this class.

Keep in mind this will get better mileage than posted. Most GM cars of late seem to better the numbers posted for them on the sticker. Many GM web sites will bear this out with members posting mileage better than the EPA numbers. Either way the 3.6 is a good engine and is optional. Also the 3800 SC is gone and has gone as far as it will go. It is much too course of an engine for todays market. Any Honda owner would reject it on noise and viberation alone. The interesting thing will be the 2.0 Turbo option for this car in a year or two. It has yet to be mated to a six speed and should repond well with it. the 2.0 Turbo with 290 HP in my SS gets 23-24 City and 30+ highway with a Auto 4 speed. I am not feathering it either. I also have 3200 pounds. The 2.0 torque curve is very flat and the six speed will keep the rev in the boost range. The question is what will the price be. I expect more out of this engine as they develope it more.

You can play with numbers all you like but I own and drive a 3800 Series III SC in a W body and a 3.6 Malibu Six Speed. The 3800 SC I thought was a good engine till I started driving the Bu I bought my mother. The 3.6 Is smoother and much more refinded. It feels as powerful even if it is down 5 HP. Also the Bu gets near 5 MPG better mileage. GTP 18 MPG and 26 MPG real world, Bu V6 23 MPG and 31 MPG real world. Note that most recent GM cars will do better than the posted MPG rating in the real world. Before anyone can informed condemnation of the new DOHC V6 engines they need to put in some time behind the wheel with one. It is sad that it has become the norm around here to condem cars we have not driven, sat in and at time let alone even seen more than a grille and bumper photo (the latest upcoming Buick plug in). God forbid anyone really get behind the wheel and really see what is going on and not rely on just a bunch of numbers that tell the whole story. The truth is the Ecotec and the new DOHC V6 engines are some of the best engine GM has ever made right out of the box and will only improve in time. The one area GM is not behind so much is drivetrain. Even the Six speed trannys are so smooth it make shows how bad the 4 speed really were. The biggest problem is the weight of this car but for the class it is in it does what it needs to do well. It does not say SS anywhere on it. But I will wait to form a real opion on this car untill once I have driven it. If it is as much better than the BU as some claim it should be a very good comfortable ride.

No we like the word disturbed better. LOL!

Now this is only half true. The people who buy diesels are people who like and understand them. They are Euro car buyers and truck owners. THey know what they can do and do not have this off preception they are like the old Olds based engines or city bus engine of the past. The Olds engine did more damage to preception than anything. The MFG's do not want to spend the money unless they are sure they will make back their investments. That is why GM spends money on Diesels for thier pick up trucks but not the cars. They know they will be able to move them. Hell if they knew they would buy them we would be driving them already. They were too much of an investment when GM had little money to take the chance. I am not anti Diesel by anymeans but even I was still shocked how fast and quiet the Audi ALMS cars were on the track. I expected loud and smokey but they were so quiet I could hear the air on the wings as they went by. General acceptance of a Diesel in this country in small cars would be a big help to the industry. In fact I wish they had made a small diesel for the Volt an option. The only issue there is old fuel in the tank if it went unused for long.

What you are going to see is more 1.4, 2.0, 3.0 Turbo DI engines. Less displacment with Turbo's to add power. Less displacment will earn better mileage and the new DI engines loves boost. Car getting over 20 pounds boost are already happening I own a 2.0 Ecotec now that see's 23 PSI and is under full warranty with only GM parts. It will do high 13 sec 1/4 miles at 3200 pounds. It sees in the mid 20's MPG around town and over 30 Highway. As for the Malibu I have noted when driving my mothers new 3.6 Bu it gets low to mid 20's in town and over 30 at highway speeds of 70 MPH. Most GM cars today will do better than the posted MPG on the window sticker even the G8. Either way the Bu will see a little more MPG than the G8 V6. Less weight, Less power you do the math. They will also look for way to remove weight from more cars. GM will also push smaller cars like the Spark and Aveo replacment to counter the bigger cars to meet the CAFE.

FWD RWD is not relivent as smaller and lighter is the future like it or not. To keep performance the cars and engines will grow smaller. This will provide cars still fun to drive and get the needed mileage they need. The bottom line in just a few short years the 18 MPG the V6 G8 gets is not going to cut it. The only real way to improve things are with DI, Turbo small displacment engines and lighter platforms. IF it were so easy to make the present Zeta get the better needed MPG GM would not be horsing around with the Alpha. I can see them scaling the Zeta down if it is possible to make a new similar car but not the same size. I expect some Volt tech to creap in too later on to help. Building cars for the MPG is going to be difficult at best and will change the auto industry in ways we have never seen. The FWD conversion of the 80's will be nothing compared to what we will see. I am wondering how the light trucks will be effected. The onw flaw most of us here have including myself is we do not have all the facts when we get upset with some of the things GM does. It is never as cut and dry as we like to make it here. We make calls with 40% of the facts when GM has to deal with them all.

If it were only that easy. Dot is that anal and they will want to test the fuel system too. It is considered a new model and often they do not grandfather this in. Just the EO number for the Turbo upgrade kit for my SS tok 7 months. THe kit was the same and the parts were identical. But it took form Sept to march to get the EO numberr for the 09 model. Sorry things just do not work that quick. THe V6 does ok on as but still is under 20 MPG city. There is alot more to this than the 6 points you have. Many we will not know outside GM.

I have seen them in print and how could you have missed the G8 on the Hot Wheels track TV spot. Drawing in the mall is more than I ever saw for the Astra.

Like I have said I would love this car but I also look at the big picture vs the single model some look at. I too have done tha same but once you step back there is an argument not to bring it here. I don't think it is as simple to just bring it here in 3-6 months. The Chevy nose is not crash tested here. Itakes time to set this up and run it through the goverment test. Once it passes if it even passes as it is then the rest of the work to get the importing back on line the product info printed. Marketing plans set ETC. I think it would take about a year at the earliest. That puts you into the 2011 models. Then are they still only going to be able to import the 40,000 units at best. What is the exchange rate at the time? Are the slow sales in the market going to leave this on dealer lots. While everyone says the G8 was selling great there are still many on dealer lots in my area. I can still get one for a sweet deal. Also if you were going to bring it in would you make it offical before the G8's are sold out? If gas prices go back up as they are known to do how would that effect sales. After all this you have to worry about convincing the American public you have changed but you give them another V8 car that the press will use against you.

I could see a well styled quality car doing well here. Add real performance like the Cobalt SS has now in handling and HP you would catch the eye of people who avoided Pontiac because they offered no such car. There is profit in this kind of a car so you don't have to sell a zillion of them.