hyperv6

1 You can has the numbers but the fact is a TT V6 is coming and I will GM decide what is best. You numbers give us something to play with till then. We wll see domething over 400 HP and one in the 300 HP range. 2 We all know size is different even in the STS and CTS today. But the flavor of the cars is very similar. The CTS works out to be the better so there is no reason to buy a STS. The ATS if left to a 4 and V6 with a Turbo V6 V car would give way to a CTS with the V6 and Turbo V6 with the not available V8 in the CTS V. The key here is to offer more advaced and mre technally advanced engines in the CTS to give people a reason to move up and pay more. We do not want CTS buyers to want the ATS but we want ATS buyers to want to move to a CTS if they can afford too. Tech and marketing are key in this class. You can afford to spend the money on more advanced systems as people will pay for them here. Yes all are not must haves but they all are selling points that attract. It is not alway the point of the best thing in this class but more about the more fancy, exciting and coolest thing that helps sell this class. 4 We are all aware of the use of aluminum. Reclaim keep the price down as it has for years. The fact is Aluminum is only a part of this. Besides GM has already been using much in the way of Aluminum. Just look under a W body and the front Cradle. It save just over 50 pounds alone on the nose of a 03 and 04 and later Imapala Regal and GP. If they can afford a Aluminum Sub frame on a Impala they will incorperate more into the more expensive cars too. Besides the cost is also factored by weight vs MPG and often anymore they will spend more to get more MPG such as with the many engine systems. Compsites and othe alloys will come into play. The industry as a whole is looking to move to and help cut the cost of mass produced Cabon Fiber. Several deals have been struck even with GM. The ZR 1 is not the last car to have Carbon Fiber at GM. At this point all either of us can do is guess as neither of us have the full story and I think we both will find suprises will be in store. We both I think are on the right track in some areas and out to lunch on others. Time will tell what we did get right and wrong.

1 You may be close on the MPG. THe LNF in the HHR at 3200 with an auto is 22 city and 30 Highway in real life. With the Turbo upgrade kit it increases 1-2 MPG confirmed by Bill Duncan of GMPD. This is with the 290 HP and 315 FT LB. Note too the HHR is not the most aero vehicle too and was hindered with a 4 sp auto. 2 You are only looking at it from a techincal side while I look at it from a Marketing side. They can make the TT engine fit if they really want it too. Cost is not so much a factor in a Cadillac vs if this was a Malibu. GM does have plans for a TT turbo as they do not hide the engine much. The idea with the Cadillac is to offer something more than a Chevy. This engine will be added value to the people who pay more for a Cadillac. Also I just will be suprised if they offer a V8 in a ATS. If they do not make the ATS and CTS fundimentally different they will have another CTS vs STS issue on their hands and we know how that effected the STS. They can have to different but quaity cars on their hands if they can give them different options. 3 I just do not see them spending a lot of money on a new second V8. More investment in the V6 but not anymore than they are already doing on the new Vette/pickup engine. Each and every year forward I see a decline in the sales of V8 engines. 4 As for weight 3300 would be a major win. Odds are against it but we can hope. Again more expensive materials are something that Cadillac could do but not Chevy. We will see an increase in the next 10 years of more aluminum and composites and with more use the prices will drop. The cars to use them first will be the Vette and Cadillacs. Just where and how they will be used will just have to wait and see.

This is true. We do know it will be suited for a 4 and V6 but we have yet to hear anything on a V8. Most of us assume with the CTS and Camaro heading for this a V8 may be an option. But till we hear more there is a chance a V8 still may not be part of the program. Note I only say a chance. I hope they do keep it as an option so cars like a CTSV and Camaro Z28 Can still have the bigger engine. Right now we still need to hear more on the new Ecotec and the variations they will be offered in. Also the V6 will we see a 3.6 TT or will it be a different engine that is smaller in displacement. I talked to one of the Camaro Disciples and while I could not get specific info I was told things will not be disapointing with some new things that we do not know that are on the table. Not sure if this means the Zeta or Alpha. I know they are speaking to them already in terms of the Alpha and giving feed back. Just none are able to say what they are being asked. They are still also giving feed back on the Zeta cars too. I mentioned something about Buick and I was told there are some very interesting things going on. Note they all were given many of the new 2011 cars to drive in Warren including CTS V coupe and sedan as well as other new GM models. Camaro 5 had a post from one of the others that were there and again he was not able to say much of anything but also set the tone that the things covered were in the wow territory. GM has clamped down and we will just have to wait till things get closer as they no longer have to show cars 5 years out to keep the stock prices up. In fact I have not seen things this quiet on new product in years. Even Scott Settlemire is not saying much anymore.

I just see it in steps as the TT V6 will give the ATS a very Euro like driveline that would appeal there and here. The V8 would make the CTS a car that people would pay mroe to own and make it a different car from the ATS. With them both on the Alpha it will be very very important to make them different vs just making CTS a bigger version of the ATS. The CTS will need to offer things the ATS does not have and make make the CTS a better car to be worth the extra money. Also offer the CTS with the TT V6 in a middle model too. The NA V6 is the base model CTS.

I like what you have but I just get the gut feeling the ATS will not get a V8. I think you are correct on a 4 cylinder non turbo but not a 2.0. A Turbo 2.0 will be there but it will not be Diesel in this country. GM just is not showing the will to do it. I see a NA V6 3.6 The V my gut says it will be the Twin Turbo V6. GM will leave the V8 for the bigger Alpha CTSV. GM has to make these car different in some way. THe ATS V will be like a Camaro SS while the CTS V will be the Z28. Note I kind of expect the 6th gen Camaro will get a V6 TT SS and a V8 Z/28. My feelings are coming on hints from people I know that can't really say much so I have to fill in around their hints for now. I know GM is hard at work in the TT V6 and they will not just use it only in a car or two but many models. I also have been told the V8 is alive but will be more limited to less models in the future. It has also been noted the cost buy a the V8's will climb too it will be mostly in higher end models. The MFG want people to chose smaller engines and will make them pay for it in the top models. I could be wrong but this is only my obervations. Either way we will still have some very sweet cars. I just hope you are high on you weights. GM has been working for the new models to be lighter and I hope they can do much better than you have listed. If they don't they have failed at something they need to do. A lighter car is coming from most MFG Mazda has already show some results. GM can gain some real ground with a lighter car. The GM engineer stated that if they can get it light like they would like it will advance the car in all directions not just one area as power does. Less mass improves not only acceleration buy MPG, braking distances and handling. I just hope they can achieve this with the Alpha as it would give GM a leg up. The trannys I suspect will remain 6 speed. The Vette engineers are already stating that more is not better in all cases and hinted that the C7 would not gain gears. I don't really care one way or the other but that is what they are saying so it tells me more gears are not a priority with them. Like I state this is just my gut feeling and I may be totaly wrong or even on part right but just my own thoughts till I get something more to base it on. Might want to change the tire make on teh V to Pilots. Michelin is doing the OE work on the V series of late. Goodyear has cut back some on OE work as there is little profit and often the tires are not as good as if they were built to the tire companies spec vs the comprimised automaker spec. Goodyear is now back being profitable and they have killed many OE contracts I just see them working were it is to their advantage or the auto makers want a special tire that they have and is will to pay more for it like the Volts Fuel Max tires.

Nice but i just do not think this is what we will get.

For every winner there has to be a loser other wise no one wins. The Fiero people feel they got pissed on but the F body people were please the GM 80 was killed and RWD remained. Life in the buisness world nor life is not always fair to everyone.

GM seldom throws much away. Often styling is carried on in other cars. The 1990 Fiero lives on in the 4th gen F body. John Schinella loved it so much he told me he had to use it as it was too good to throw away. The Banshee Pontiac was used for the C3 Vette and Firebird. In a indirect way the Opel GT too. The Mid Engine Vette proposal that GM design did in the 70's was rejected by Chevy and the Corvette team. It was them presented to Pontiac in the late 70's for use on the Fiero. Dave Mc Clellands book Inside the Vette ponts this out. The Corvair did not really spawn the Fiero but they did do something to the Fiero because of the Corvair. Like to leave the rear sway bar off because of fears of oversteer. Thanks for posting. It brings back memories of bringing a 8,000 mile Covertible back to life after sitting for 25 years. It even still had the rib Firestones on it. We got the engine free and I rebuilt the carbs and it ran like new on the original pulgs and wires. It is amazing what Marvel Mystery Oil will do. I even cut up an old 65 sedan once and saved the engine for another project. We kept the wiring harness in tact and I could run the engine just sittin on the floor. It fired with a turn of the key with no car.

Almost to prototype stage that is not exactly close to production nor a showroom. Hell the mid engine Vette at least got off paper and out of clay and we know how close that one came. My comment on the engine was for the Air Cooled engine. Air Cooled had not future and by 67 they knew that. If you look at the Corvair and the options and models they killed in the last 3 years the car was a dead car deiving. Chevy may have done some work on it but GM was never going to let it make production. Too much bad PR to deal with and other cheaper cars that accepted V8 could be made and Cole the one guy who really cared about it moved on. Delorean already had his hands full by 1970 with the Vega program he inherited from Cole that he never like. When they kill off Corvair hard top sedan in 67 and then in 68 after they killed the 3rd gen idea the AC and better radio's and other options were gone and that is a clue they are not looking to keep a car around. Decontenting is a sign of an end not a begining. Chevy may had some ideas but that was about it. No matter what the second gen coupe was one of the best styled Chevys of all time. It had flowing lines and a green house most cars would kill for.

The Covair was gutted each and every year after 65-66. The Corsa was dropped and by 1969 they did not even use any rust proofing on the limited models offered. The Corvair was in great declind in 67-68-69 just as any model in the build out event. The Third gen never really went anyewhere. The V8 was cheap and the Camaro arrived in 66 for 67 killed any future. The other factor that may have killed it in the end anyway was the 73 emissions. It killed the VW air cooled in the 70's. GM would have had to rework the engine but with the cost of the engine I do not see that that would have ever happened. Ed Cole moved on from the Corvair to the Vega and Wankle engines who in the end never worked out for emissions and mileage. A lot of good ideas that just never refind to the point they panned out.

The Video make a good case. The Corvair by 1965 was a much better built and engineered car but there are other factors that hurt it that the Video leaves out. The Swing Arm issue of the early cars gave them a lot of bad press. Then we all know the Nadar BS but they were not the real major issue of it's death. But the one factor that killed the Corvair more any any other is the Mustang was marketed very well, the public took to the styling and by 1965 Chevy had lost interest in the Corvair in favor of the Panther project. The Corvair may have been cheaper to buy than the Mustang but the Mustang and the coming Camaro were cheaper to built and made more money per unit. The Corvair engine was more expensive to build vs the 327. Also sharing parts with the Nova spread out the cost of the Camaro much more to save money and make it more profitable just as the Mustang shared parts with the Falcon. With Family members who were at GM at the time in engineerng in Detroit. I have learned a few things over the years on these. cars. My great uncle would by a new Electra and Chevy every yeat. 63-66 we got his Corvairs with around 2,000 miles on them a year later. They 63-64 were good little cars and the 65-66 were great cars. I hope someday someone would write the true story on what happened with the Corvair and get the truth that Nadar may have hurt the car but it was the Mustang and Chevy moving on that did the most damage. I often wonder if the Mustang had not happened what kind of performace cars we would have had later. One thing they needed to do in the video is show the gas tank in the Corvair and the Mustang. If one took the tank out of the Mustang there was no trunk floor. But then again at this time safety was not a major selling point.

I think this is corrct. This car is not really a direct Cobalt replacment as it is targeting a new group of buyers. It is almost like Chevy is upgrading the Aveo as the cheap car to replace the Cobalt and retained the Malibu for the mid size class. With he Cruze they have overlaped the Cobalt and Malibu class a little with a car that offers more comfort and qulaity than the Cobalt ever did and it offer eco options that also may attract the Green folks looking for MPG's and not be forced into a car that only can carry limited people of cargo. I think things would be more clear if more of us have really been in one of these cars or driven one. I have seen them and can see it is a car not targeted to replace the entry level car you send you kid to collage in. I have not driven one but know someone that has and from what I was told it is a much more upscale car than most others in class. It really is quiet and rides like a larger car. This is not another base car that you can tell what kind of road surface you are on by the echo from the back seat. This car is carving a new notch as things are about to change industry wide for all of us. 4 cylinders are now 70+% of the market and small car sales are climbing. With the new CAFE and pending CO2 regs things are only going to get smaller. I think Chevy is looking forward to the fact the average person is going to have to go to smaller cars and they are seeing if they will pay more for a better smaller car.

In truth most companies market their vehicles with improved drivelines in the second or third year. Most cars sell with no issue at intro and then you have to keep upping the options to bring in more. GM also is not going to bring all version of one model out in the first year. We will see added bodies and engines each year to keep things fresh.You always have to keep the carrot out infront of the mule. They all do it not just GM.

That could still be captured just with a trunk that someone can use. There would be no reason you can't change the wheel base, roof hight and ground clearance. This car has a higher cowl already s that would not much of an issue

I really think this was rendered with Kappa in mind. But with the Alpha it could be moved to it and in reality be a much better car. No budget short cuts this time.

The Riv concept was ehh! I have seen it in person and it really did little for me in a concept and would do less for me in person. The 2+2 Coupe would give Buick a real image car. I would love to see a family design language show up in other Buicks as well. The Curves and styling cues would even make a nice larger sedan. I have been a supporter of the 2+2 since I first saw it. Now with the Alpha they have the right bits to make it real if they choose. Price it under the Lexus coupe and under the Audi TT and GM may have a real winner. This is also a car that would appeal world wide. It could be also used as a replacemtn for the Opel GT. A sporty coupe that is still usable.

I love this car and hoped Alpha would bring it to us. The more I think bout this could we be looking at a Zeta Coupe Buick that could be built on the Camaro line with a TT 3.6 Turbo? Kind of a BMW/Audi RWD coupe? Just a wild guess but the parts are there to do one very easy.

Sorry you post was not up when I posted this AM. I am done. I don't want to kill the thread.

Todays world has the Socialist on the far left the Progressives left center and Fasicist on the far right all fighting for control. None are good for our country. This leave the most of the country in a center to center right. Most of these people are independents that are becoming a gowing force in our country every election. This Nov they will determine the out come. Many will not be re elected. Sorry but I just don't buy into you kind of tactics you are with us or you are against us outlook. Often the progressives will respond with a anyone who disagrees with us is stupid/wrong/completely uninformed/out-of-touch. Often they will not work with others and really try to solve the real problems. Then those leading many of their causes profit from their blind support. What does it feel like to be a Pawn? See the differance with you and me is this. With you if I do not take everything word by word you buy into I am wrong and uniformed. We me I agree with you that we do need clean air and improve things. But I also think it is something that we all need to work on from what ever position. There is room to respect others. My friend I can see from you comments you have no respect for anything but your narrow view. I may not agree with your view but I respect it and would be willing to work with it. Just think not a single one of us has the full answer. We both have good people on each side but we also both have power hungery people on each side too. You seem to not under stand there are people making a big buck on the Green projects. They could care a rats ass about the real air. The fact is the money it is costing everyone is making a lot of people rich. The Green movment has turned into a industry of it's own. Read up on Patrick Moore. He was a founder of Green Peace. He is still for saving the eviorment but he left the group as it has turned into a corrupt Politcal tool. This is only one of many who are seeing what is really going on. The people you think that are supporting you often are just using you.

See if you can find out who the Malibu brand manager is of the car and e mail them for what is call a Satruration list. This will give you the totals and break down of colors and options etc. I had heard the 4 cylinders were around 75% but I can not confirm that. I have never seen a list. I do know I see few V6 cars as they are easy to pick out with the wheels or two tail pipes.

The carbon trading is nothing but a money maker for the Chicago Carbon Exchange. The smog left Pittsburg but it is in China now because that is where they make the steel. Just check the photo's of Pittsburg in the 40's and 50's and then look at the pictures of Beijing today. Remember what they did a year ago to kill the smog at the Olympic's? They shut down their industry. For the most part the air in the United States in most [but not all] areas is much cleaner than it has been in 100 years. We also in many areas have more trees now than since before the industrial revolution. We still have issues but things are far from as dire as some would make you think. The Best Green guy around is Ed Begly Jr. He lives as he preaches. To bad the ones passing these laws do not live as they preach. I would like to recomend the latest Popular Hot Rodding Magazine. It has a indepth story on what all is going on with cars and how some groups are trying to control what you drive or if you even get to drive.

Gee I heard they gave free luncheds at the Castro's communes and jail cells. The reality is both sides need to work together as solutions are there. MFG can improve things but techinology still needs to be developed. Instead of the goverment thowing money away as they have on short term work projects and wasted it could have been put to better use. The fact is if they wanted to make progress in energy and batteriess the could have used NASA and American idustry working in a Apollo like project to develop and improve these technologies. The space program was not just about going to the moon it was about technology development. Much of what we have today was spured on by what was learned and expaned upon by private industry. Many jobs were created and many lives have been saved. More new technologies were developed with NASA than any other time in history. You want cleaner and better cars for the future get the goverment to spend less time forcing the issue on emission and CAFE to 65 MPG and spend some money on technology development to attain these thing. Not only will we improve cars but better batteries will improve Cell phones, pace makers, toys, surgical equipment and just about ever part of your life. The fact is we have a very strong free enterprise system here and it has the ability to make things happen if it is not burdened buy goverment regulation to the point it is stiffled. We here in the Stated can accomplish anything we want to if we are not stopped by the lack of support. Nancy Pelosi pushing unobtainable regulations do little to help the cause for anyone. Driving a car is like many other freedoms. If you do not fight for it you will lose it. What if the goverment tells you some day your freedom of speach is a privilege, not a right? There are some in office today that would support your speach being capped. I have no issue with small engines I do not define my manhood by cylinder counts. I do not have a issue with improving the emissions either. I do have issues with people in govemrent setting standard that don't drive and fly howe to California and back to Washington on a private goverment 767. These same people do not drive in many cases and could not even check their own oil. The solution is to work together now apart. Many want to point to greed in industry but there are many who are pushing the Green adgendas that stand to make and are making great profits with the laws they are lobbying. Mr Gore is only one of many to see great profits. They all are not just doing it for a merit badge. The fact is there is a strong green agenda out there. If you do not accept that there is you have no credibility. Also there are those who are pushing the green effort as they are using it to control economies. Some of the issues they have wanted the United States to sign would have hindered us greatly in the world market while countries like India and China would not have been addressed. There are some good green people and they have pure intentions but there are just as many that use the issues to shift power and money in the world. From the sound of the socialist like views you either live in Cali or be from there. Bay Area?

I think the fact it is geting a Tubo V6 is attention worthy. Also now word is leaking of a Twin Tubo V6 Mustang. Guys the hand writing is on the wall. We may have V8's for a few more years but then the question will be how many models will over them and How much. I see number becoming limited and the price to buy one going up to force people into the smaller engines.

I guess you really don't get the full extent of what these companies are up against. Things are a lot worse than many believe. You do understand it is much worse in Europe as they embrace the geen agenda much more easily there. We already here have had several states want to mandate you have to put on the same size and traction rated tires on you car as a replacemnt due to the fact larger stickier tires create more carbon gases? It has not passed yet due to SEMA and others but it is far from gone away. The proposed Cabon gas standards are resonable till 2016 but the new proposed Obama ones are where it will be hard to meet with the cars we like The so called bad Idea is not what they want to do but what they will have to do to survive. Performace will only get more limited in availability and more expensive to buy. If some get their way money will not even buy it. When you see Ferrari show a high mileage California at Paris you know the $hit is about to hit the fan. Ferrari is not just doing a Tribute Fiat 500 for fun, they are testing the reaction of the market. They know the way thinks have been are about to change and they need to see what options they have left.

MB has plans for more FWD as does BMW. They will not dominate the line by anyway but they both will enter a market both have avoided directly in the past. Even Aston Martin is now looking at bringing the new small FWD they have here.