enzl

I think that math assumes that other areas of the company (i.e. the staggeringly profitable GMAC arm) made money, thus the auto operations dragged down the entire economic picture, although either way, its impossible to agree with or refute the premise with the information given.

Lots of posters here fall into that description...apologists, conspiracy theorists, etc... I like Lutz because he isn't afraid to speak his mind, unlike the other rats running the General right now...unfortunately, that sometimes leads to contrary statements or faux pas.... Just wait for X years from now! The new X is 5x the car its replacing! I have to laugh each time I hear that one on this board....I've got news for everyone- the future IS now, because there may not be a next year or next product cycle. I personally know 100's of employees that depend upon GM for their livelihood. What they've got coming in the next few years is because of people like Rick W. and his golden-parachute brigade. It's flat out negligent. If I presided over a company that performed as GM has in the past few years, I'd be collecting unemployment checks as of 6 months ago. Just crazy, IMHO.

It may not be accurate (as hyperbole tends to do that)...but the perception of that basic truth is what's killing GM. They USED to make crap...now they're paying the piper...that's all this is. Where are the media conspiracy kooks when the Corvette, GMT-900's or the Solstice get GLOWING reviews?....you guys can't have it both ways - somebody's gotta recognize the logical disconnect....

No offense, but you gotta get out more....the Altima has a somewhat crappy interior...and that's it. The optional V6 in the Altima is more powerful than the G6's GTP engine. I think the question you need to ask yourself is "Why am I so aggressively defending a product (G6) that is SO superior that it can leap tall buildings in single bound?" Oh, and the coupe was 12 months late (nice job, GM) and the 'vert...well I haven't seen it in showrooms yet, so lets hold the phone on the accolades....

I try not to lurk and then jump into topics, but, you've got to be kidding....BMW's are overrated.....but comparing them to ANY current Pontiac G6 is just not realistic. The BMW mystique may not justify the Dollar v. Value relationship, (in your opinion) but the phrase 'apples to oranges' applies in this case. Listen, when Pontiacs are beating Hondas or Toyotas on a regular basis, then we can talk about taking on BMW. Until then, I hope you enjoy your car, but, please, some rational argument should be required here!

The average margin on Chinese Auto purchases has gone from up to $5,000 to approximately $150, according to a reecent article I read......I don't know if GM should be hanging their hat on that. I'm assuming you're just an irrational GM fan, rather than a total space case, but the reality is that noone knows what's going to go on in China. It's much more likely that your fellow Americans in the UAW will be unemployed and Chinese labor will be producing many more GM products for US consumption in 5 years rather than GM dominating the Chinese market.

Right..as per GM's instructions...but that doesn't change the fact that GM had been pushing it under the old name...We have a Chevy dealership in our group and I haven't heard of any objections based on the name of the system (DoD v. AFM). I just hope it works better in the long term than the previous effort!

Like I said, different strokes....It's your money, I hope you love the car.... I drive 100's of cars a year, some for weeks at a time...I have the opportunity that most car nuts dream about, so it's easier for me to cherry pick the best of them. I just don't think the G6 is a better product than the ones I mentioned above...although I have always found something interesting about every vehicle I get to drive and there's always a ton of good ideas in even a bad product, IMO.

Different strokes for different folks..I'm glad you love it...I'm just not a fan....of course, I don't have to choose one car for a term, so I guess I'm lucky, in that respect. My experience with G6's (while limited) has been kinda negative, as the examples we've had were either rentals or fully loaded repo's, both of which probably had hard lives...I think GM has better product in other classes, while the G6 is more of an also-ran in its segment. I'd much rather be driving an Accord, Fusion/Milan or updated Altima or a 3yr. old 3 series, but that's just my opinion....

There was also a similar one available on the 1st gen. M-class..... The panaramic has been an issue since intro (we have had 'em on the lot as used vehicles.) I'd avoid the G6 anyway, but I'd especially avoid one with an enormous hole in the roof...(with all due respect to those who own/drive one, there are better choices out there for your money.)

In their defense, Gm itself initially refered to the tech as DoD, IIRC. Side note: Interesting how the almost universally positive reviews of this world class product has quieted the 'media bias' crowd here... See, if you build excellent product, you get good reviews...Surprise, surprise!

We've got one in our CJD showroom right now...I can't comment on the rest of the range, but this one (an SXT with minimal options) has a cheapy interior. Hopefully, the higher line versions will be better in this regard. The rest of the car looked fantastic and, generally, the car is alot more interesting looking than pictures suggest.

Or, they'll be a strike and the stock will be nearly worthless in a matter of months.... I find it hard to believe that GM has JUST woken up and realized the vast global resources they've been squandering for years because of yester-think and corporate pride. It's unbelieveable and borders on Corporate Malfeasance (for all you budding lawyers out there), based on their current situation...which a blind man could've forseen when they foisted the Delphi 'spinoff' on investors...

Taking your numbers at face value (and I have no reason to dispute them...)Wouldn't increased profitability of each vehicle, due to reduction in a variety of costs (design, engineering, marketing, material & labor) cover part of that legacy cost??? In other words, if I save Billions NOT bringing badge jobs and dubious nameplates to market, can't I just apply that money to the legacy costs? I stand by my original premise that bringing in $60 billion by spending more than $60 B seems ludicrous....I'm not trying to be obtuse, just trying to understand why LOSING more money to increase cashflow to pay retirees & keep people working until GM has to absorb the legacy costs of today's workers (who become retirees) later is like pouring more water into a pail with a hole...you may have more water temporarily, but the water WILL run out. That's a certainty. I understand cashflow in a large business, but you're literally asking a dying patient to run a marathon while tending to his/her own illness...it doesn't make much sense. And, in the meanwhile, the horribly underfunded products that are diluted at conception become less and less desireable, less saleable and, viola, you get to the point GM is at today...they're the Kmart of cars, the Target of trucks....you're selling deals to get precius cash flow, not creating memorable products that people aspire to purchase...DeLorenzo is a pompous ass...but, he much closer to being correct than you're giving him credit for....most of his writing is spot on...he called all of today's issues years ago...and, you're not giving him proper credit as an industry guy...my understanding is he has worked for at least 2 of the big 3 as some sort of marketing/ad guru...

Isn't that assuming that GM makes a profit in producing that revenue???If bringing in that 'last' $60b costs GM $61b+, isn't GM better off without that revenue? (I realize fixed costs being what they are, this is improbable...but couldn't a surgical strike against models that share factory space with volume products happen?--or a last minute deal with the unions to allow significant downsizing of workforce to reflect the new reality?) In other words...it makes more sense to make money than make cars...shouldn't the focus be on 'right-sizing' the company, rather than struggling to retain an outmoded divisional structure that hasn't worked right in 30 years?

Where do you get $60 Billion? In revenue? If we are to take the assumptions one step further, wouldn't it stand to reason that the remaining car lines would get more marketing support, less internal competition and a greater opportunity to be interesting and significant, due to the reduction in badge engineered dilution of resources? I don't wholeheartedly agree with his 'solution', but less models could, ironically, sell in equal volumes if done correctly....

I did get to the autoweek article late...however, you stated in your previous posts that there is 'proof' of the '08 MY intro for the Camaro and the GTO is a go...if you reread the Autoweek article, a timeframe is NOT given...and, according to insiders that I have heard from, its an 09 intro for the Camaro and a maybe for the Pontiac, Buick or other Zetas...not the same thing as you're saying...again, are there links that verify production plans I'm unaware of?

I wasn't taking issue with what you wrote...Mr. Lutz himself has said (in more than one quote) that Pontiac should be an American BMW....He's the product boss, not me.As for comparisons, the price range you quote does not include the GTO (MSRP 32-35k) or the GP GXP (maxes at $32k+)....both of which should be getting a look from 3-series consumers, IF Pontiac's products were all that.... ...that being said, MY point was that Pontiac isn't being thought of...at all. Many Import intenders do not even step in the Pontiac showroom...a tragedy for GM and a legacy that they have not taken the proper steps to reverse at Pontiac... Other than the Solstice & GTO (both limited production) name me a Pontiac from the last 5 years that has been regarded as anything more than mediocre, by the auto press or the buying public....Saturn is getting their product development money, Cadillac got the previous boost and the crossovers that are coming do not have Pontiac badges (thetas or lambdas)... It's not Pontiac's fault per se, they seemed to have drawn the short straw. Makes each product they do make more important, which is why the g6's flaws are less forgiveable... (Oh, BTW, I'd like to see the study that indicated Saab fans don't buy Acuras (FWD sedans) or BMW (Euro-sport sedans)...FWIW, my parents owned an Acura and a Saab up until recently.

The Lienerts are not good writers, nor well presented...their work is more 'Good Housekeeping' than a legit outlet like DetNews...however, in a brief article (much shorter than the average Road Test in C&D or R&T), its difficult to get into any detail.... I think every GM fan on this site would be doing cartwheels if every 'Yuppie''s default choice was a Caddy or Buick or Saab, and, quite frankly, BMW still makes an excellent product (with a few exceptions). Unfortunately, Pontiac doesn't even get mentioned in the same breath as BMW when the average shopper is queried....that's the tragedy that is the 'elephant in the room' most ignore on this site...

Then why was Edmunds posting a '10 due date for the Camaro? And, if the info is available, can links please be posted? I haven't seen one shread of evidence that the Camaro is any closer than '09 at this point....And a GTO replacement is uncertain at best... LATE EDIT: late '08 production means '09 Model year...http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060302/FREE/60302001/1039/LATESTNEWS

They've been writing this column for years...they come from a family full of auto journalists....attacking the reviewers (regardless of the quality of their writing style - I don't like 'em either) doesn't change the fact that the basis of their opinions are well-grounded in fact...and, BTW, its the 'Yuppies' that you deride that are the exact well educated, moneyed, and trend setting people GM needs to succeed...its moronic and shortsighted and an example of the poster's ignorance that he would chose that statement as a put-down... You want to see an interesting, well thought out article on the state of GM? Check out this months' CAR (UK) magazine - they interview Rabid Rick W. in a well written and insightful manner.

Boo-hoo...I'm sorry, but their critique is legit...the G6 is, overall, just underwhelming... So your car isn't their favorite....who cares? If the G6 is GM putting its best foot forward, GM's screwed anyway.

To me, its a Shelby GR-1, minus the silver paint, plus a canopy system. Unoriginal, derivative of a dozen other recent sport-concepts and absolutely the wrong direction for a still rudderless Saab. Evidence that Lutz can be grossly wrong....Saab needs volume product in the crossover segment or a 9-1 type vehicle. The Sonnet, while moderately cool, is not the resurrection this brand needs....99 would be more like it.... I find it ironic that Saab has abandoned the hatch when everyone is flocking to vehicles which have one!

I may have been unclear....you are correct, I've heard the RR will supplant the 9 series (sedan) but may also be a platform-mate of a BMW model above the 7....it may actually appear as a quasi-z8 replacement (rumored z10 has been percolating for years)...I personally wouldn't be surprised if a 'space concept' enormo people mover was the 'car' that resulted...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/review...-24-camry_x.htm