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...and I gues I forgot to add it was a case study in failed marketing, design and production..but most significantly, it destroyed any momentum niche models had at GM....It took someone named Lutz to pull the Solstice out of the wreck that the Aztek created...

If you peruse the latest Automotive news, you will find that Toyota also issued recalls for 29k IS & GS, as well as 12k Tacomas.... Of course, you'll also see 13k DTS' and Lucernes, or 269k DCX's or 66k Nissans... I just don't see the big deal about a handfull of new product having an issue. It brings to mind the 'living in glass houses and stones' maxim.... Just part of humans building complex product for other humans, folks....

Dude, the Aztek, no matter what its practical qualities, had the visual appeal of an aborted fetus. It's redeeming qualities were not able to overcome that stigma. (GM was offering special deals with 3 months of intro....not good.)Not only did the Aztek suck, it completely poisoned the well for other 'niche' products that GM was considering at the time... Here's some advice: If you want to make a point, don't use the Aztek as an example. You missed my point---the H3 should have better performance than a Honda 2/3's the price. Therefore, via the logic used in this string of posts, it must suck pretty bad too.

Before we celebrate Toyota's imminent demise over this news :AH-HA_wink: , keep in mind, these products were generally badged as Toyotas before, thus we don't know if they are selling at a higher rate than before.... Since most of the Lexus models are 6 cylinders or more and much larger than the average Japanese car, how many would we expect them to sell? Gas is $6.00/gallon in Japan! (LEXUS SALES UP 85% in Europe this year...so, I guess the Europeans are OK with the lack of Lexus 'history' or soul)

Don't waste your time. Hater-ade being served...Newsflash-this is a niche vehicle, designed as such...and selling at a slow but steady clip...if this had a GMC or Hummer badge on it, you be raving about its 'unique styling', 'great price point' or 'target audience'...BTW-it's average performance is about on par with the $30k+ Hummer H3---it's not just the Leinart's that are logically challenged....

100% right.I was thinking more along the lines of a surprise breakout hit....think minivan or Mustang--something that creates a demand where there wasn't thought to be one before. Historically, GM didn't create segments, but perhaps the crisis will awaken some dreamers and quiet some of the 'yes' men. Perhaps adding plug-in capability to hybrids in development? Just a thought.

It's news folks! It's gotten press, although I can't imagine .5% of the total production so far being more than 1,000 vehicles? That pales in comparison to some recent recalls that have hit the millions! ahem. (That's part of why it may not get much play....although contenting ourselves with it being the media's fault is obviously easier for many on this site to accept. GM's on the ropes and the media loves a story of an icon failing....from actors to politicians to companies, America loves scandal and outrage!)

I think GM is currently paying for PAST transgressions...be it the press, the buying public, etc...(truth is, their product is more competitive than its been in 20 years right now & ironically, they're losing retail market share anyway.) That being said, because perception is reality, it'll take a few years for the damage to their rep to be undone...unfortunately, GM is facing other issues that have compounded and otherwise exaggerated the process. GM can do it. Can't be with $5,000 coupons and other guys failing. Generally, the auto industry has produced amazing turnarounds because companies have their back up against the wall. I'm not sure if GM's corporate culture will allow that type of comeback, but I'm certainly rooting for them. The Zetas HAVE to be great. GM may also need a huge surprise hit to really regain their footing. Saturn renaissance is one possibility. Lambdas are my bet...

I didn't change the subject, it was altered by the previous post! (and the one before that)....Ooops...if it was Pro-GM, it would have been fine. I forgot. Can't come up with an answer though, huh?

Wouldn't you rather beat them at their own game, or god forbid, create superior product?The sentiment expressed perfectly illustrates what makes this site so frustrating....I sense people here are rooting for competitors' failure rather than providing insight into GM's anticipated success...and that's the attitude that pervades every thread...(And I don't mean to pick on 68, but philosophically, I've got an issue with hoping the next guy loses rather than planning for my own victory, or at least providing a roadmap for it.)

While I wouldn't argue the point that Toyota's are generally bland-mobiles...what GM product in a mainstream segment is exciting?? The Impala ('cause when you see one behind you, you think its an undercover cop?)? The GP ('cause its been rented by tourists that can't drive/)?I mean, I understand its a well-deserved criticism, but what has GM done to capitalize on the perception that its most deadly competitor makes bland product? personally, I find it discouraging that they've barely tried....I would think people at a GM enthusiasts site would feel the same. (& please don't gimme SS or GXP crap-- those aren't in the same league as the LX triplets or a cut-rate 3 series competitor that should be here....hell, the Fusion has more of a claim than any of GM's current offerings)

Unfortunately, the list goes on and on...I get to see lots of different manufacturer's new stuff...and while I'll 100% agree that GM's stuff is SO much better than before, its the details that still escape them time after time, across the board. even my Grandfather, who is a Caddy addict, is being driven crazy by his new STS....the keyless entry is hard to understand...the default mode means you can't verify that the car has been locked up visually, since whenever you approach the car, it unlocks and stays unlocked...noone at the dealership explained that to him and he panicked when he had to park in the street near my house recently....perhaps that's kind of dumb, but you could imagine that the scenario should have been anticipated....also, the base suspension is so much harder riding than the SLS he came out of, he wishes he bought a beemer because he would have expected the ride, at least...I realize that 70 yo retirees are no longer Caddy's target, but shouldn't a suspension have been made available (or a magnaride setting, at least?)

--by the by, i really was joking and i know you have assorted interests. lighten up a little. Lightened :AH-HA_wink:

If only. I'm pretty sure our Toyota place will survive this one just fine...Mr. K....perhaps you should reread some of my posts...I have repeatedly stated that my employer has interests in GM franchises and I, more than most on this board, have alot more to lose when GM f's things up. I just call 'em like I see 'em. If you saw the internal info I see, as a GM fan, you'd cry....trust me, I'm not celebrating GM's misery, just being factual.

You obviously know your stuff...I'd quibble around the edges regarding the Verso, if only because I find the response time (or, if you are correct, the anticpation of the marketplace moving to 7 pass mini's) incredible. How many of GM's products are being enhanced or next gen'ed within 18 months of market action? That's what concerns me about the Kappas..they're great, but in the rush to market, we lose sight of what GM really could use at that end of the market. Imagine Pontiac producing a lineup (think J-car intro) of small, RWD coupes, sedans, wagons & verts, all on one architecture...Now you've got a roll out which could adapt to market conditions (or intro each 6 months after the other, like BMW does with the 3 series), rebadge 'em as Opels and send them to europe to battle the 1 series (take advantage of exchange rates by exporting), etc....A premium price could be achieved, instead of selling $15k Cobalt rehashes, you've got $20k+ products that people would kill for....

The analogy still stands, since I think we can all agree that most GM products are not Mac or Vaio versions of vehicles... If the resources are limited and differentiation depends upon creatively using the budget you have, I feel that GM doesn't maximize the resources at its disposal. Volvo's center stack uses less materials in a stylish, new way. VW sells cars for less than 20K that have world-class interiors, built by labor that gets paid more than UAW stiffs. Honda's fit has a 5 speed Auto available. There are tons of examples of other automakers using their resources smarter...there are very few real innovative ideas coming out of GM right now...it doesn't cost extra to work smart or design cool stuff and that should be an overriding concern for GM fans.

Recalls happen. Human beings producing products for other humans will always have these issues. It's unfortunate that we try to make more of these situations (i.e. "Toyota sux cause .5% of their tranny's are bad or GM still has a way to go'...) than they really should be. Vehicles are so complex and the relative repair rates have come down so dramatically that the worst new vehicles today are still much less problematic than years ago.

Newsflash...plastics are part of each and every thing you mention...thus, enhancing interior plastics, including soft touch dash pieces, are part of what you're describing.Sit in a last gen VW for an example of tactile quality at this price point....it can be done.

First, the W has been updated, but not fully redesigned since intro...I'm pretty sure you understand the difference...All of your above examples are not comparable situations...the reason the current W's lack interior space is because modern updates have been grafted onto the nearly original design...much like the G bodies as well....Please refrain from muddying the point with inane comparisons that have no basis in reality... I'm pretty sure the RWD Corollas share not one part with today's model, as but one example of your exhaustive list of nonsensical historical links to the name and class of product currently produced. I notice my mention of the Verso is ignored as a ground-breaking development cycle upgrade....rumor has it Toyota may have a 12 month turnaround within the next few years...any reputable industry info source with verify my version of events. Not producing Euro-competitve small cars is no great shame, as the competition is super-intense, resulting in the Fiat Punto Grande replacing the Suzuki Swift as the class standard within 12 months of intro (see CAR (UK) mag for more info). Every major player in europe has a car or 3 in this segment. The asian invasion has just begun to change car-making in W.Europe...

They are able to dictate conditions, rather than react to them. That's what happens when a superior competitor in a saturated marketplace ascends to the top of actual retail sales.......they're just beginning to flex their muscles and that's bound to accidentally knock a few things off the shelves...You underestimate how relentless they are. Mistakes will be made (and then quickly corrected...see recent 2 yr. redesign of their 7 pass. Verso mini-minivan as a scary example in europe)

Bottom line is that FWD is not ideal, regardless of maker, if you're going to put 250hp+ through them. *especially if you're calling the product a sports car.

Just to clarify my point: The lighting takes time, money and creative resources away from REAL needs, as I had outlined. Some of the plastics GM has been using might be better if there were an extra buck or two in the budget...I'm not expecting Audi interiors, but VW possibly? It's not like the tooling, tech and development budget for the 4 year old Epsilon architecture hasn't been amortized by now...

Yes. It's the gauges that are the problem.How about spending that $ on soft touch plastics? Or less cheesy fake wood? Or properly aligning panel gaps?....Or leaving the interesting stuff on their production version of their concept cars (see Aura)? While the idea of different color gauges sounds appealing, its a complete and total waste of $.

I think that all this means is that the current SS model is selling as a larger part of the model mix than the last model's lame V6 SS attempt.That shouldn't be a tough task, should it? (Then again, we're still waiting for the 09 Camaro to surface...)

I'm not sure what signs people are pointing at to make such a conclusion, but I'll assume it's the normal bleatings of the GM faithful....if only we could wish GM's troubles away! Toyota is about to up its production capacity in this country by almost 400,000 vehicles, when factoring in the Indiana Subaru plant. They'll revamp their entire line-up in 4 years or less and have no product based on 80's architecture (W-bodies, ahem). I'm pretty sure they'll be fine. (Helpful hint: When you create these kind of topics, at least try to stay somewhere within the realm of reality. The Kool-Aid must really taste sweet out there!)