enzl

I'm not just picking on GM in this regard...I just think fleet sales are bad for numerous reasons, including the ones I outlined above.As far as residuals go...supply and demand are clearly at work, but, as you state, there are more 2.5'ers in fleet duty, thus popping up as supply that much quicker in the used car market versus typical Hondas or Toyotas...that being said, any company would rather retail nearly ALL of their production. Fleet sales are currently propping up the domestics and reducing overall margins. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing, as the factories must keep up with an artificial level of SUPPLY in order to pay fixed costs...therefore, while the Japanese may have MORE vehicles coming into fleet service than historically, you'll still have a disproportionate number of domestics in the supply chain (due to over-production), thus there's little hope of avoiding the problem in the near term. Dealers will always have margin to work with in the marketplace, so I'm not concerned about their interests. It's Mr. Joe Lunchpail that takes it in the shorts as a thank-you come trade-in time. If you don't think this excessive loss weighs heavily on his/her future decision-making, than you're not looking at the overall picture clearly. Nobody wants to hear they're $5k upside down on their 'bargain' 0% loan...if that same person had previous negative equity, you're talking 5 figures! Try packing 10K of dead money in a $25K transaction....at 0% over 4 years, that's $200.00/month. That's just one of the reasons you'll find Mr. Lunchpail at the Honda place next time.

Gotcha.The rethink threw everything off...that makes alot of sense. Is it fair to say that the Mustang and LX's runaway success gave GM the real world proof it needed to pursue the new direction? It seems like the timing of the rethink would point to that... ...and, unfortunately, another piece of anecdotal evidence that GM doesn't have a framework in place to lead in the marketplace of ideas.

E-am I to understand that the production locale is holding back the intro dates for Zetas? That Aussie photo looked like a near-production ready product....we're going to have to wait another 2-3 years so that GM can clear space at a factory that's already one of the highest quality in the empire? With the massive underutilized capacity at half-dozen plants, they choose Oshawa? I don't understand the logic there. Furthermore, if the Zeta's turn out to be a hit in all of their incarnations, won't capacity constrain actual sales?

I literally meant that no rental inspired me to purchase that particular model... ....and, since many of the best models in each segment are only sold to rental agencies on a limited basis, my opportunity to actually rent those cars is close to zero... And, in a sense you're right, I wouldn't buy any fleet queen. Why would I want to see my new car next to me at a stop light with an 'e' sticker on it? A car may not be an investment, but I can't see throwing away another 10-15%of the retail cost in depreciation...trust me, you do not want to be the guy trading in a popular rental model 1-3yrs. in to your loan...just one of the issues that kills GM, Ford and others come trade-in time at local dealers...I can't tell you how many people freak when their mint, 2 year old car is worth less than 50% of purchase at trade. It just one more way that they feel F'ed over by their ownership experience!

Cool. I was thinking a SWB Zeta would make sense in Wilmington so that it could eventually replace the current Kappa after its current lifecycle.... With 'only' 200k 'stangs'/year being built, is there room in the marketplace for 160k Camaros? Especially with the Challenger green lighted?

Regardless of model or manufacturer, I've never felt like buying a model of car I just rented (and I've rented a few really nice cars)...I only can speak for myself, but its my gut feeling that seeing your new ride with an Enterprise sticker is depressing. I'm not sure where others stand on this issue, but, to me, high profile, low margin sales that advertise the fact that your vehicle is taxi-grade or rental worthy or telephone repairman useful don't help send a good message. I realize that fleet sales keep factories running, but it doesn't create an aspirational message, nor does it aid the big 2.5's attempts to counter current trends regarding its more marginal product.

Cool! http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05/04/alfa-ro...ing-to-the-u-s/

1.Any truth to the rumor that the extra space at Wilmington will accomodate 80-110k Camaros??? 2.Anyone familiar with the details regarding Camaro/Firebird replacements ONLY being built in Canada?

Couldn't agree with the last two posts more......it can happen. Arguing about the merits of the quality of plastic in the new Impala and how it stacks up against the Camry is an argument we shouldn't be having on this site...The fact that the Impala nameplate is attached to such a pedestrian product has played into the Japanese nameplates' hands by taking the 'Americaness' out of the product...

FOG-Not once have you ever articulated WHY the media is out to get Detroit... Again, isn't it more likely the product isn't quite there yet??? Killing 2.5 HUGE advertisers makes no sense at all...nor does outting millions of readers, TV watchers or internet surfers when they lose their jobs as a result of the destruction of their employers....Americans still spend more per capita on entertainment than almost any other culture on the planet...Why on earth would the media conglomerates want to put them out in the street? I'll repeat for your benefit. Ackham's (Occum's) Razor is a theory that states that, absent a clear indicator, the simplest explanation is generally the right one.... Now, do all of the above entities really benefit from bashing the big 2.5 in a giant show of uniformity, solidarity and agreement in perpetuating what you say are lies or, do the big 2.5, generally speaking, put out product that is, generally, inferior? Do you actually look at all of the product out there? Or do you share the bomb shelter with GM and Ford product planners, hoping that the war outside is a shared nightmare that will go away if you squeeze your eyes shut real tight?

http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?...E/60501002/1041Link...See, I might not be on Toyota's payroll afterall...

I've heard figures as low as $250m to product Kappas....even at 50K/year, they will clearly make money...at some point.Now, let's take the far end of costs for a flexible Kappa, at a cost 10x of that figure....$2.5B First, the production bottleneck wouldn't be an issue, as the stampings could be amortized over more years & models, meaning that the 50K could be as high as 500K, with 2 facilities running at a max for the 5 years the rollout of 5-6 products would take. (A GM plant running at capacity, how about that?): roadster, sedan, coupe (w/vert.), wagon (3/5 door)...crossover, if AWD is configured as well.... Now, spread this product out amongst Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Chevy and Buick...sell 'em around the world in various guises...take advantage of current exchange rates and.... Then, send the tooling to China or Korea when the next gen are ready. I'm sure Buick (China) or Daewoo or Chevy Europe could use the bones for a whole slew of new (old) product... Instead, the Kappas will be either a)outdated and need upgrade in 5 years, b) useless to other interests within the GM realm because the difficulty producing 'em fast and, as only 2 seaters, a limited audience elsewhere anyway... As I've said before, the Kappas are great. A symbol, hopefully, of better days to come...but it had the chance to be something bigger. I think we all can recognize that as a lost opportunity... (btw- the Lexus IS is a downsized GS platform...not suitable for a 20-30K RWD toyota 2002 unfortunately.)

They're engaging in constructive criticism....maybe a GM'er reading this site will know he/she is not alone....By you standards, we should have the blue-prints ready for a production case....that's GM's job, not ours, which is the point of the criticism in the first place! You wouldn't want Pontiac to have the spiritual successor to the 2002 in its lineup in 1 or 2 years from now? I know I would!

He's merely trying to avoid making you look silly and misinformed. It's not a threat and you know it.No-one here has claimed to be smarter than you (although its generally stupid people, in my experience, who are concerned with such things anyway.) We are just better informed and view our participation here as an opportunity to discuss matters auto-related. I can't speak for evok, but I spend 50 hours/week minimum at a car-related activity and I have access to lots of info others here do not. They may not like what I have to say either, but they're certainly more polite about it...

I'll pick up the most popular mantra here "Media Bias"....in all seriousness, the Detroit News (a homer paper for the US brands), writes an opinion piece....his opinion.I leave the conclusions to you, but to me, the ability to sell half of what Saab is selling, and nearly the same as Jag, isn't horrible. Is it fantastic?, no. Is it a failure?, way to early to say. They have had no small vehicles, no diesels and a small dealer network...give 'em a few years. People laughed when the LS400 was introduced in the US....They're not laughing anymore. Oh, and the GM US are broken out separately from Saab, and that lineup includes the Vette and the LHD Caddy's that GM is currently peddling through a 3rd party owned dealer network. (Oh, and GM has been 'trying' this and other half ass approaches since the C5 vette was out, so they've technically had a huge head start on my lover, Toyota.) :AH-HA_wink:

Projecting, Mr. K? Why not back off and let the men have an intelligent conversation. Is GM like your mommy....no mother jokes? You seem more like the kid that would sulk in the corner hitting his head against the wall than the kid that would fight back, but that's between you and your doctor.... I think I can speak for Evok and others when I say that the Kappa roadsters are great, but we are wistful with what could have been... ...Imagine Pontiac coming out with a volume, 1 and 3 series competitor with US styling cues, at 20% less sticker...you'd easily sell 200K and we could stop the insanity of calling the G6 or GP a sports sedan...they are blue plate specials with GM's interpretation of 'exciting, sporty' styling. I for one would love a 4 seat $20K 1series that didn't look like the abomitable effort BMW is trying to pawn off in Europe.

Just in case there are people who care about facts (and are prepared to listen to someone other than the voices in their head):Lexus sold 10.5K in Europe last quarter... for comparison, over the same period: BMW sold 175K MB sold 179K Audi sold 161K Jag sold 12K Saab sold 24K MG Rover 4K Chrysler 24K GM U.S. 1.5K (AutoNews 4.24.06)

This years productions so far:300-50K Charger- 38K Magnum- 19K or thereabouts, IIRC from this weeks' AutomotiveNews. Yearly should be about 300K+

I have no particular love for Toyota...just think one should use facts and not BS to prove a point...When the casual fan reads this site, I would think that getting the best, most accurate facts would be important. And I used Caddy as an example of how hard it is to start-up a premium brand in the European market, not as a criticism of Cadillac or GM per se. The situations are factually comparable and germane to discrediting your (false) assertions. Note that you haven't proven me wrong, you;ve just tried to shift the argument when someone challenged your 'facts'... If I'm wrong, as I can be, I can admit it. You may want to ask around before accusing me of being uninformed.

First, it's still a dramatic number for a premium product that has no history and, up until a few months ago, no diesel (IS diesel is available now).Ask GM how hard it is to startup a premium make in Europe....Caddy would have a ways to go to hit 16K a year.....they're talking 5k/year, so my math tells me Lexus has tripled GM's target already...it would be a more interesting counterpoint if you noted the number of dealers Lexus has...or the number of products their peddling (much small lineup than the states. BMW 3 is one of the best selling cars in Europe, not just in the premium segment. 25% of what they are selling would be quite an accomplishment in 5 yrs...c'mon, make it hard for me to feel superior, at least... :AH-HA_wink:

Most execs (as they are termed in europe) are sold as diesels...the gas ones are a ton of 4 cylinders in C, E, & 3's, so that doesn't apply.Your math knowlege is great. Auto stuff, not so much. Also,alot of the euro's are also bought as company cars, not individuals....Many companies must 'approve' makes & models to be purchased, so new ones are at an additional disadvantage.

Dude..the 300's been a sellout success...none of the models you mentioned hit 250k/year individually....plus, number of sales don't matter as much as transaction pricing....Newsflash-All of the Belvedere products are coming out in the next 9 months...(Caliber/Compass/Patriot)...that's called good timing!

I'm not getting the comparison between the Aztek and Element, other than the ugly part....Element is not a POS. Average, perhaps. Subpar for a Honda, Yes. Ugly, yes. But it's obviously a moderate success, whereas the Aztek was an unmitigated disaster. I give GM points for trying, but we're constantly doing that here....unfortunately, giving out gold stars for 'effort' isn't going to help them sell vehicles to import intenders...how about a mild rebody of the 'Nox to create a Torrent? (or -God forbid- the 3.6 HFV6?---nah, just give it to Suzuki....) Or a better idea than the G5 or an inflexible Kappa architecture? The list is endless, along the lines of 'if it can go wrong...' GM screwed up the Aztek royally, just as it is wrecking Pontiac a few years later...MEDIA BIAS--that's it. Let's blame someone else, because putting the blame squarely on GM's shoulders would violate the credo here! The Leinerts may be idiots...but they look smart compared to GM product planners in charge of Pontiac.... ...and, btw, it isn't bias, it's just a viewpoint that's contrary to the one you hold....

"Enzl.....WRONGO....!It is a bit quicker than "on par" with the H3 and it's 5-cylinder engine. Let's compare C&D acceleration numbers again, shall we?" Let me clarify my point: Perhaps what I should have said was 'if this was badged an H4 or a Pontiac Aztek, then...." My point was that the Element, a niche vehicle, has been selling steadily....you want a small crossover---that's what the CRV is for. It's PERFORMANCE is comprable (or better than) the H3, which sits in a different, supposedly superior, category, sold at a premium, as compared to this vehicle.... ....meaning, if GM came out with a unique, polarizing, reasonable priced vehicle at this price point, all the apologists would be coming out of the woodwork to compliment GM on its success....It seems the Honda badge suddenly renders this vehicle inferior to a host of products mentioned that were not really direct competiors either....(Just as the H3 is not really a direct competitor, just another half-baked product that GM is famous for.)