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If you're defending GM's wholesale dump into fleets by comparing it to Hyundai's fleet %, then I can't help you....how the mighty have fallen.Optimas are selling at our retail locations....can't comment on sales numbers as a whole.

While we can quibble with Hyundai's design (which, IMO, is no worse or better than the LaCrosse or Lucerne, Buick's two lastest efforts--I'm assuming the Rainier & Terrazza are being ignored for obvious resaons), but, the cold hard truth is that almost every Buick between 1990 & today has been a compromised effort...either thru platform sharing or uninspired design, they've defined mediocrity on every level except reliability...Buick is synonimous with bland, geriatric vehicles...only those old enough to fit their demographic can remember consistent great product eminating from Buick's showroom floors. Hyundai gets credit because of the distance they've travelled with their product and the balls it takes to stick a 10/100k warranty on a product....nothing more or less. I don't like Hyundais either, but lets be real here....what recent Buick product (Enclave isn't out yet, so don't cheat) is really eyecatching or unique or a true dollar value (@MSRP)...the answer, unfortunately, is none. Buick has all the potential in the world (see Hyundai as an example of how quickly perception can turn around)...but the General hasn't seen fit to address the product to this point in time....here's hoping they do in the near future.

ADM is over $10k on average anyway....better that GM should get it than the dealers....

They don't like to let the truth get in the way of some mud-slinging...GM hasn't marketed a competitive true minivan....ever. The lambda's are a good first step...20 years late to the party!

You're kidding, right? It's bolder than expected...and perhaps not pretty.If Hyundai is staffed by Idiots, what does that say about GM's management ranks? (Since Hyundai/Kia has, in essence, removed all relevance to the low-end market that GM once had.) If Hyundai is Rentalville, does that mean GM's 30% fleet sales are occupying, appropriately enough, Rentalville's Town DUMP?

They are far from meaningless...and my only point was that the language contained therein was necessary and appropriate, given the accounting issues right now.Are you a CPA now too? Or an S.E.C. expert? Please go sell somebody a car and leave the intellectual heavy lifting to others.

Economics of Scope! 177308[/snapback] And having the luxury of overcharging for every car you sell (in the case of Porsche). That always makes the economics work....(unlike VW, where it takes twice as long to make average product without (nearly) the premium).

Tell that to porsche; their SUV is keeping their head above water. 177293[/snapback] Not anymore. Sedan/928 are a go for '09. Niche product is where it's at nowadays. (see 4 dr. coupes, crossovers, small MAV). The next segment creation yields much smaller total numbers. (No more 64 Stangs, more Hummer H3's or MercB CLS's)

SEC regs require this type of disclaimer when there has been a misstatement recently or the procedure for redoing the previous numbers is not yet completed. Previous mistakes change all numbers going forward, thus resulting in the language you see in the annual report.

Correct. However, fleet sales are not only image issues, they also are much less profitable than your average retail sale, for GM & the dealer as well.Most Municipal Contracts I have seen lose money on the sale of the vehicle and profit only on 'aftermarket' or contract - specific add-ons each vehicle needs to perform its intended task.

Bad GM PR photography. Think/hope it'll look better in the flesh.

In raw numbers, yes....in proportion, apparently not.

Source? That seems high.

Kudos to GM. Now it's the PR dept's turn to work their magic and get THIS kind of story out....

GM is only the US' largest automaker & in their recent, glorious history, the #1 Company on the planet. They've had some minor issues of late...(sic)....Toyota is, relatively speaking, a johnny-come-lately...now they've become a juggernaut, a company hiring American workers to build millions of cars that GM isn't (anymore.) *The article also contains potentially ominous inferences that the current Toyota recall issues may explode due to the age of the current problems surfacing. So please. Are there some positive notes in there? Yes, of course....Toyota, on some level, has earned the 'benefit of the doubt', whereas the domestics are not quite back to that level, in the public's eyes. Hopefully, that will change. Perhaps this situation with Toyota will help GM, but it's not the way back to greatness if your competitor crumbles. Like boxing, you need to earn that crown through clear 'wins' (as in great product).

Negative article on Toyota. Media bias, my but.

Toyota and Honda completely bucked market trends and sold a ton of cars...the big 2.5 are not only down from '04's numbers (pre-employee discount), but DCX and Ford just recalled over 2 million vehicles collectively (for steering failure and passive fire issues!) If the Detroit News is 'biased' then I guess its too late for domestics...(that's sarcasm, BTW) Ford is staring at the precipice....Both it and GM are a Middleast missle away from absolute disaster...why shouldn't THAT story be prominent, rather than another (3/4 in the last 2 months?) Toyota recall article.... If it Bleeds it Leads....that's the news industry guys, whether you like it or not.

I had a 2000 Corolla VE (3 speed auto). It was fine and far from gutless on the highway...I'm not claiming it will blow away an Impala, but it was just fine (and buzzy) at speed.Let's at least not lie outright....I mean, I would have taken your statement at face value...except I owned a Corolla with a 1.8. The power was more than adequate...the handling (on 175/13's) and lack of features sucked, but the power was just fine....

Two words: Fleet Sales (rumored to be running at a 30% clip the last few months. And before the first wiseguy says that fleet sales are down 50-60k units this year (I read Automotive News too)- Note that sales totals are down 7% overall at the General this year...that's 70k per 1 million sold, as a nice even round number...not good)

Who cares? Who reads that s&%t anyway?Boo figgin' hoo...the Toronto Star, the top of the auto-press heap, is saying 'bad' things via a letter writing proxy! How dare they! C'mon man, you've just given that letter more legitimacy than it ever had on its own... Media Bias, my butt. Build better cars (see 'vette, Solstice, GMT-900 reviews) and, magically, the reviews get better!

Looks good. Possibly dramatic & traditionally handsome at the same time? We can only hope... Chevy has a generation of disappointed import-intenders to grab with this product, if they hit their mark.

There is a ton of potential in Buick. I think its a matter of poor stewardship on the part of GM rather than any inherent failure of the 'brand mission."That being said, the lineup under Cadillac in the GM hierachy should have the 'almost' best of everything. I just don't see that happening with their current lineup. Here's a lost opportunity in the marketplace> How about a clever 6 passenger option?....think past generation Taurus front bench (with reversible armrest and cupholder thingy during 5 passenger use) meets a Coach - style execution. It would be an upgrade to those that want it.... I'm not as concerned about the product execution, its the details that still escape the General...no real innovation or outside the box thinking....

Sajeev-Please don't take their barbs too seriously...TTAC is a good source of fuel for the collective fire here. It's hard to be a GM fan nowadays...and its a little too easy to be a critic Farago is a decent writer, but incessantly beating the same drum with the 'Death Watch' articles is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel, from an intellectual perspective. For instance, any thoughts on where he goes if GM pulls out of its nosedive?? Doesn't change the LaCrosse's plight, but I thought it might be interesting to see if there's a plan B over there...

1. Lutz said what he said. He more than implied that Lexus was the target. Failing that level of sophistication & precision isn't the sin. The issue is the abject marketplace failure of an also-ran product, partially because the target was not placed high enough (or misaimed...not sure which is worse.) Also, Fleet sales as a gross number are down across GM this year...but proportionately, GM is selling more of its product to fleet buyers. (I can't speak to Buicks' specific numbers, but the article appeared in last week's AutoNews) 2. No arguing quality...(I'm an overall effort guy) 3. 3800 is past its freshhness date...semi-premium should get a semi-premium motor. The sin here is that GM has much better engines sitting in its own development pipeline. (Suggestion: Use N/A version of the 2.8 HF V6 in the CX/CXL if you feel the need to differentiate.) 4. The W could easily have been replaced by the LWB Epsilon....think MAXX as a well proportioned 4 dr....in fact, if you've ever sat in the back of a nicely kitted Maxx, think of how great that would have played as a really competitive, more formal mid-size Buick sedan... Also, you've ignored the largest issue: Opportunity squandered exactly because the Accord is now 4 model years old (& ugly) and the new Camry has again had its quality moderately downgraded (again). The DCX LX's sell at a premium, at a rate of 250K/year...a midsize Buick should be able to hit 150k by itself--if done correctly! Buick should be welcoming defectors back instead of struggling...the quality success alone should be more effective. That tells me their either they're not making it to the door or not getting the message effectively or, simply, aren't overwhelmed with what they find...Buick is in trouble in the states because all 3 may be conspiring against them.

GM loses money because a large portion of the populace will NOT buy their products at the prices GM wishes to charge....The reasons have been given here thousands of times by us 'apologists'. They are sound, objective, business-like reasons, generally backed up by research & numbers, not antecdotal evidence like how many old Cavaliers you've seen in your local parking lot...c'mon dude...is anyone clamoring for a '91 Cavi or an 84 Tercel? People drive those vehicles b/c they are cheap and happen to still run. At the end of the day, the 'bu is an average piece, no more, no less. Economical & reliable?- absolutely---able to turn the tide and convert Accord or Camry buyers?-hardly. Just in case you haven't read it before, I depend upon Big 2.5 product to be good. It dissapoints me when it isn't good, especially in the frustrating ways these deficiencies are repeated generationally. It ain't just the sheep buying Japanese cars/trucks my friends, its your neighbors or your grandma....many of them won't step into my big 2.5 showrooms anymore. To change perception, one must change reality....the 'bu ain't going to change hearts or minds in it's current incarnation. It is one nice rental unit, however.