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I think the thread is missing the reviewer's main point: The W's are compromised...old safety structure robs them of space--despite their casting a larger shadow than the Camry or Accord. Their suspension design is hamstrung by huge overhang and less than optimal weight distribution (especially when hanging a V8 out front.) The compromises extend to almost everything about these cars. Are Impala's fantastic VALUEs? YES. Are they great product, as compared to class leaders?--I'd argue no. A 4 cylinder Accord LX is more efficient and has a 'feel' that eludes Chevy & the current Impala. Nothing surprising, as the Chevy has 'baked in' compromise while the Accord exudes a typical, historically Honda base model feel--which, I'm sorry to say, has the Impala beat. If Chevy didn't agree with my assesment, why would the next Malibu be growing and the future Impala looking like a RWD Charger competitor, rather than a large FWD 500/Montego competitor?

We'll have to agree to disagree. The marketplace is heading in a certain direction, you want to stay the course...Status quo is what dug GM the hole they're in.......Buick has had so many models that are NOT what you're describing as prototypical Buicks for years. Remember, the Sigma I speak of could be a 2 dr (think Riv), a vert (think Velite) or even a people mover (think SRX), but noone thought outside the box, and now Buick is synonomous with grey-hairs and rental car agencies. If Hyundai can sell quality or Porsche a truck, then why can't Buick sell a Legitimate alternative to a Euro sport sedan/wagon/coupe? (BTW-A Lucerne can't be parked in my G-father's garage...200" limit....that's why it's not an alternative. The old STS was designed with the European 5 meter rule in mind, thus it was shorter than 200".)

The new Buick's aren't 'failures'..they're just not nearly the product they SHOULD be. Unless you count any other critierion other than 'quietude', they're just not that good.....Quiet, coincidentally, is also what you get plenty of inside Buick showrooms right now.

I was referencing the G & W's....but I've gotta disagree that the IS, G, et al. are not competition...they are similarly priced &, I believe, that a 'Buicked' version of the Sigma, for instance, could be highly competitive in this class, at a slightly lower cost than the CTS---FWIW, my 70 yo grandfather recently purchased an STS...and, he hates it, mostly because its been 'europeanized', whereas, what he wanted was something halfway between old Caddy and new Europe---so, why NOT Buick?AS for SUV drivers, x-overs will supplant some of the volume---GM will finally have a modern 5-7 passenger x-over in '07. How many X5, ML, MDX, RX/GX, Highlanders, Muranos, et al needed to be sold to convince GM there might be a marketplace? It blows my mind that they had NOTHING in between the mediocre 'Nox/Vue & the SRX for the better of 5 years! (The Aztek/Rendezvous don't count, as they were based on the U platform that has sucked since intro)

Since F-brian felt the need to accuse me of oversensitivity, can I at least verify that the 'golden child' reference may be construed as a slur or detrimental statement of some kind? He gave me the --probably since defending ALL of the boorish behavior on this site requires a few intellectual shortcuts.

I'm merely explaining that GM's platforms are NOT competitive. The Lucerne is a stop-gap measure that's not comprable to industry best platforms. There's no disputing that a market for these products exist, but that doesn't excuse the lack of vision on GM's part. As for Acura...they're tarted up Honda's, no more, no less. The difference between Honda & GM is that these products have modern platforms, engines and tech that isn't currently making it into the Lucerne. I'm looking at the IS, G, Z, 3,5,C,E as targets that seem more likely to produce stunning product. Part of GM's problem is that they look to improve on current product, rather than benchmarking great, outside product and looking to exceed those targets. BTW-They harp on the deficiencies in the product presented...noone is comparing the 3 to the Lucerne, however, I know where my hard-earned $40K would go. The large, luxo sedan market has been replaced by RWD/AWD sedans and SUV/people movers in terms of volume in the near luxury market. Where is GM's response to these conditions?...

As someone who drives dozens of cars/year, including most of those referenced on this thread, I can state unequivocately that GM's G-bodies (and W's) are well past their freshness date. The market in the $30-50k class has been overrun by RWD/AWD choices. Almost every major manufacturer has a RWD in this class, & most are AWD capable...so what does this say about GM's efforts? They've fallen behind...just like the compact car segment, the small pick-up segment, the minivans, mid-size FWD's etc... GM is being picked on...but not unfairly. DCX has proven that this market can be exploited successfully. Zeta is only expected after the second-gen LX's are out. That's not good. Nissan's FM platform underpins many great products, sold at reasonable prices that are fully competitive with GM's old FWD. If that (formerly)cash strapped, dead-in-the-water entity can do it, the question is: Why hasn't GM? (And I'd love to hear what 'golden child' meant, as I had assumed you were refering to Mr. Metha's cultural background. Are you going to tell me it was a compliment? It's incredible how sensitive you guys are to the barbs hurled at GM, yet don't have the common sense to apply any sensitivity to how people here are being insulted...)

Since the American Luxo FWD market has been shrinking for the past 20 years, isn't it wise that GM and DCX have made the move back to RWD?I don't understand the logic of resisting the market's pull....Please explain how NOT making product that matches the world's best is a good idea? ABS, TCS & ESP have eradicated any of FWD's former advantages....and an AWD option is needed, regardless (& should please the ice/snow crowd). Oh...and your arguments might appear a little stronger if you dispense with the subtle, amateur racial barbs (golden child? c'mon man.)

This Cielo Concept could be applied using similar tech as the SRX...It looks like the engineering necessary to get it to show status has already been done. How hard could it be to finish? www.mclellansautomotive.com/photos/B18184.jpg

I believe that of GM's brands, Buick, in some ways, may have one of the brightest, if we factor in the Chinese market....so, I wouldn't worry for Buick, as it will be around in some form for a long time. As to product, I have a couple of (inexpensive) suggestions: 1. Revive the LaCrosse with a 'Cielo' type 4 door convertible. Chrysler has flirted with the Helios concept and MB is rumored to have one in the pipeline as an S. Why NOT Buick? 2. Decontented, Buicked CTS. I can't tell you how many times my Grandpa has complained how his STS is "too stiff" or "cold" or "austere"...Why not a $30K RWD casual machine to catch all the people who will never appreciate Euro-lux but deserve a car with RWD characteristics. 3. Enclave SE's- Hit 'em hard and fast with tangible changes to Special Edition models....A GNX? version would be easy with the DI 3.6 around the corner. How about a properly engineered 'Skyview' multi-paneled Sunroof while you're at it. Just a couple of ideas...

It's a website....people use 'em to post pics of their dogs or whatever. It's not supposed to be a reputable source, just a source. While your original scree did not specifically defend GM, the Death Watch pieces have clearly been the largest source of controversy within this site. So I figured you were just continuing that misguided trend. Instead, I see that your tangent is even less coherent and, clearly, you have not read MY replies carefully. I never said TTAC was a humor site or humerous. You Said I said that.... I take issue with other things as well: How exactly is Farago two faced? His heart appears to be on his sleeve as to his opinions on things automotive. Who cares what their reviewers say? And what's so detrimental about them? It's an auto enthusiasts site with an opinion. And a set of balls to call it like THEY see it. If you don't agree, don't read it! Tell others as well.It's a simple solution to your worries and will clearly let you relax. Otherwise, if you regard freedom of expression as 'Bull$h!', go live in a place that doesn't allow that for a while, then tell me how big a 'detriment' Mr. Farago & his little site is. He didn't duck anything. You're just upset he told you to F off, in a funny, sarcastic, caustic manner that, guess what, gets people to read his stupid site! When you become an adult, you'll understand that lots of people won;t agree with you, or ignore you or tell you to f off. That's life, Junior, get used to it. Noone's going to coddle you like Mommy or beat up a bully like your big bro Jimmy. And finally, if everything in life came with a warning sticker, it would ruin all the fun. Take it for what it is and relax....or better yet, start your own site and let's see how your journalistic integrity stands up to the first press junket or freebie. (Forget that last line....people like you usually just tear things down---some of us actually build things...)

I can't comment on the articles your refering to, as I haven't read them, but, taking your version at face value, I can only say that the freedom of the press, expression and ideas is more important than GM. There's just no arguing that point.As for the fansite's natural reactions to bad press--I understand and respect those opinions, but it's an excuse, plain and simple. GM has been putting out (with a few exceptions) mostly mediocre product since about 1970 or so. In the meanwhile, enterprising and crafty competitors have taken advantage of every angle to box GM into the corner they currently occupy. GM appears to have finally 'gotten' it....but in the meanwhile, the contempt GM showed its employees, customers and, yes, the press, has come home to roost. No benefit of the doubt will be given until the last vestiges of the 'old' way are eradicated. GM has earned its turn in the barrel. Now its a fight to get out. Hopefully they're up to the task. I'm encouraged by the initial signs, but there's a long way to go to recreate a public image where a GM product was a default choice. Now, you've gotta bribe 'em just to get them to look at product. Today, Toyota & Honda are the default choices. Hyundai has clearly shown that perseverance and decent product can turn an image around. TTAC only reflects the reality on the ground in auto marketing & retailing (I should know, my employers sell over 20,000 cars/year.) GM fansite, great. GM apologists, I just have no patience. My employees and their families deserve better than what GM has provided in recent history. That's why I get worked up over ignoramuses and their blind, ostrich-like loyalty. You're as bad as the boardroom 'yes' men that got GM to where it is.

Unfortunately, I can report the same here in the Northeast.If it wasn't for our pre-owned department, we'd be completely dead.

Is your life dependent upon the info they provide?Newsflash: we read magazines, newspapers, watch TV for information. The ENTERTAINMENT is the way its provided.... ...does Fox News say "We're conservative zealots spinning war stories?" ...does the NY Times say " We're a bunch of pillow biting libs?" ...do you tell your boss you're on the computer during work, while (lamely) trying to argue for suppression of opinions that don't align with yours? Of course not. Their is NO such thing as truly objective journalism. I think you be better served complaining to GM about such embarassing disasters as the G5, LaCrosse or their CSV's...that's a bigger sin than some so-called e-journalists expressing, god forbid, an opinion. This site loves GM's good press....all negativity MUST be bias, of course

I don't doubt Mr. Farago (or Sajeev)'s sincerity. I have doubts about their true accuracy...but that doesn't stop me from reading or enjoying what their point of view is on things.to me, its like a columnist in a newspaper...they're interpreting the normally dry arena of automotive journalism in a refreshing way that is clearly their opinion...now, if you told me Farago is shorting GM's stock on days he prints the 'Death Watch', then I'd unequivocally state he was doing something wrong. As it stands, I think the average reader can see where opinion and fact are intertwined, but for those too stupid to take it for what it is, they clearly may be confused or disturbed. I'm assuming those who take the latter position here haven't really considered the ramifications of muzzling opinions in the 4th estate... If you're that concerned about what TTAC has to say, e-mail GM and tell them to get new product out...that might help get a decent review or two.

TTAC is entertainment, plain & simple. Do you really look to them for anything else? Kudos to them for creating a buzz for themselves. Just because the Koolaiders here don't agree with them doesn't make them 'bad' journalists---opinions are like a-holes, boys...everyone's got one, most of 'em stink...that's life. Perhaps a poster just heading into college (which, BTW, isn't the 'real' world) doesn't have the life experience or knowlege necessary to challenge someone who's actually DONE something tangible like Farago. I don't agree with TTAC alot, but they certainly have the right to print whatever they'd like. (And send you a snide response to a baseless e-mail filled with pompous bluster and hyperbole). This is America.

I'd love to see those articles, side by side. I'm calling BS.As for the Aura, if we pull off the GM-colored shades for a moment, its an update of an architecture that's due for an update in 1/2 model years. I'll concede that I haven't driven one yet...so I can't comment on the tweaks and improvements, but it's not that dramatic an accomplishment. The G6 & Maxx already ride on this chassis. The 3.6 finally migrates to this platform (2 yrs late) and a 4 speed is still rearing its ugly head on an 'all new' GM product. Add to that the toned down appearance between award-winning concept and production and you have, what in essence, is the world's nicest application of epsilon, nothing more or less.

Factor in a 30% fleet giveaway across the Company and the situation becomes more bleak.

Gladiator was a great concept, but, given $3 gas and the way the Dakota, Ranger, Colorado/Canyon sales have tanked, it's not surprising they didn't produce it. Keep in mind that Jeep has added 3 nameplates and 4 models in 18 months....that's a commitment to the brand, regardless of your feelings about the Compatriot soft roaders. (Just keep in mind that many other iconic brands have expanded their market segment reach...Porsche, MB, Lamborgini, BMW et al. While not all of these forays were successful, I don't see any of these brands really suffering as a result.)

V8 install right at the top of the info.......it's merely an extension of the line, not a new product. It also leaves open the possibility that the LaCrosse Super may not be introduced, rather the V8 will be an option in the upper trim level(s). Remember, according to GM's BPG channel, each of the future vehicles would be complimentary, rather than competitors, so the RWD Pontiacs and GMC trucks/xovers are supposed to cover the holes in Buick's lineup.

Here's my problem with that 'projection' of GM's future. Too many times have I heard 'wait until the next....' There's little excuse for the half ass efforts. Zeta should have been here as an 07....in multiple forms, built at a factory ranked (consistently) as one of the best in NA..... The G5, Torrent, W-bodies, Colorado/Canyon, deltas and other product just point to mediocrity being the mission statement....there should be ZERO products like that! It Appears that the General has finally woken up. Let's hope their is a next product cycle for GM's mediocrities.

I'll preface this by saying that I normally don't like Flint, but I don't think he's that far off....the Tigers are an excellent analogy and metaphor, both for what ails Detroit and how 'fixing' things isn't too difficult, given that fans will come back...perhaps they're looking to. Blaming the messenger is a cop-out. GM can produce world class product. They've proven it...its a matter of getting their 'batting average' up....(perhaps 'slugging %' is more apt...as a few more home runs are certainly needed.)

I think both previous posters make excellent points...My opinions are just that, an opinion, however, I see a tremendous opportunity lost in the 'near luxury' segment that may never be regained....In the last 10 years, much growth has been in the 25-40k market, fueled by excellent product from Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Audi & MB....where is Buick's aspirational product in this segment? GM, in essence, gave it away without a fight... Here's a couple of ideas that would have cost little and gained alot: 1. A lower priced Sigma, with classic Buick design cues: a coupe (Riviera), 'vert (think Reatta) or sedan might have helped stem the tide of import defectors 2. G based people mover (think Pacifica) 3. Use of modern Epsilon platform (think 112" Maxx/G6) as a traditionally shaped sedan, rather than the old W LaCrosse 4. Keep old, great names 5. Develop a Buick use for F-body platforms that would have kept the Camaro & Firebird platform alive...which would have helped Chevy & Pontiac's images as well That's merely off the top of my head. I think Buick is far from done, but the latest entries do nothing to move things forward in any way.

30% of sales is dumping--and someone at GM is being incredibly disingenuous when they cite raw numbers as evidence that fleet sales are down....IIRC, 30% is historically the highest ever for GM. 3/10 units are not being sold for anywhere near MSRP....you know what that does to profit margins? or resale? or your street cred?Hyundai's SHOULD be fleeted. They are average, everyman's cars that are nothing special....exactly the type of plain, simply executed product GM used to sell in droves. Also, as an aside...pointing out that other competitors are 'doing it too' doesn't make it right or wise or excusable. It's not logical nor a convincing argument...didn't your mother ever lecture you about the folly of following others if they 'jumped off a roof'? Getting back to the topic: This Hyundai is fine. No more or less good than the Focus, Corolla, Cobalt or G5 it'll compete with in the marketplace. I give 'em credit for trying something different, even if I don't like it myself.

I work for a large dealer group, so I'm not suggesting dealer's not make a profit...but with customers paying an average of $10k ADM, shouldn't GM get its share if supply/demand econmics are so obviously at work?