enzl

I've gotta see it live, but first impression is positive. I'm sure there are many customers waiting for a competitive Chevy offering in this class. Most importantly, it looks like their wait is over. Minor quibbles about styling aside, this should provide a boost to Chevy's car line-up, big time.

But I did answer him....Approximately 10% of Toyota sales are fleet...that's still 50% less proportionately, on average, than GM. Camrys are not sold instantaneously and production volume may dictate the sale, in volume, of parts of this volume. Generally, manufacturers will use fleet sales to regulate inventory, as well as for testing on specific supplier components, getting rid of poor option mixes or because a competitors withdrawal from the market (Ford Taurus, GM's cutback on fleet sales) creates less supply, thus higher fleet pricing for their product. Just to be clear, this is a normal part of the business. I also suspect that the rental agencies have done research that indicates their customers may want Japanese vehicles available to them at the airport....There is nothing wrong with fleets, per se, it their overuse that damages residuals and destroys overall profitability. If you're looking for cracks in Toyota's armour, this isn't the place. The new Tundra and the Texas plant will prove to be a problem, not a few Camrys in fleet use. Toyota's marketing & PR should serve as a lesson to the Big 2.5. Perhaps a few lessons learned might help them. Criticizing the masses for following their message might appropriate, but why shouldn't Toyota crow about their accomplishments, even if we (as enthusiasts) know its BS?

A generation behind chassis-wise. I'd wait a year more and scoop up one with a Certified Preowned Warranty....I think Saab has a 6/100,000 deal. Must keep these cars within warranty, if at all possible. Also, plan to use it until it rusts away or face the fact that a 5 yr.+ Saab is worth little come trade time...perhaps a lease, if feasable, would work.I personally love Saab's, but I have a hard time recommending them.

By your logic, GM has been 'padding' it's sales for years, to the tune of 20-25% on average. Care to rethink your position?Toyota is fleeting more than ever...which translates into approximately 5-10% across their carlines. Hyundai fleets 4 in 10 Sonatas....BFD Here's an unsolicited suggestion: Use facts, not personal anecdotes...it makes your argument appear stronger. (Oh, and the idiotic Asian-speak destroys the rest of your minimal cred. I have a feeling many daily life events 'stun' you. Sorry to hear about that. Perhaps somebody should slap you occasionally?)

Keep in mind that a wagon (or fastback) variant is not only for the NA market. In europe and elsewhere, the wagon/hatch is very popular (& yes, BMW sells a ton of 3/5 wagons). Remember, Cadillac is GM's international flagship brand---and in many places, families only have or need one car. The flexibility of a hatch is important to international popularity. Gotta stop thinking in yesterday to make Caddy work. Only a complete lineup which includes the latest diesel tech will grow int'l sales. The US luxury market is a bloodbath right now---better to pick 'low-hanging fruit' in other markets. GM sold more vehicles overseas than in the states this year and that gap is predicted to grow as they shrink in the states and expand elsewhere.

Can't. But I think that's more of a commenatary on where Kia was & how big an advance the Optima is, for them.I'm a huge fan of the Aura and believe the best idea to come from GM in a while was the financial commitment to Saturn, but I'm much more excited about the stuff coming down the pike, rather than today's Aura...the Astra, Outlook & possible Zeta derivative sound better than anything before.

Which is why the success of the CTS needs to be advanced with a proliferation of related product.There's no shame in selling alot more $38-45k vehicles and other markets view our CTS as an oversize competitor. One which could make inroads with a 1. World Class Product (period) that 2. Just happens to be alot of metal for the money. Beneficial exchnage rates should boost the profitability of any new CTS product, having a couple of variants...my vote is for a fastback wagon w/AWD availability & a Hardtop vert...would be amazing. I think we all forget that today's Escalade is really the 'top gun' in the line-up. An excess of metal, just like the good old days. I personally don't see much to gain from Caddy moving the DTS further upmarket. Think LWB STS, perhaps with a CLS-type sedan and a more 'formal' sedan variant? just my .02

While the placement in this comparo is a little dissapointing, I'm not sure how anyone is too surprised at the Aura's finish. It's still an updated epsilon (3+ model years old) and this chassis, no matter what the application (Malibu thru 9-3) has never been an 'award' winner. Competant. but not class leading in any of the categories it competed in.

In defense of the xB...it's a unique little car that has captured an audience with its unique (visually challenging?) qualities...its a PT Cruiser -type success in a different weight class. And, to qualify as overrated, the advance press has to be overwhelmingly positive. Board members have selective amnesia, but the Scion brand was not universally praised and many pundits predicted failure for both the brand and product. And, while most Toyotas and Hondas are overrated (and perceived quality is down, IMO), they are still, taken as a whole, producing product in most classes that bury the 2.5's current efforts. I'm sick of hearing how great the 08 Malibu is going to be or how the Aura (which will struggle to sell 75k in its first 12 months) owns the Camry or Accord.

No particular order: BMW 3's (too much hype, still an excellent car) Lexus ES (Camry in drag gets too much of a free pass) Mazda CX-7 (An ugly 6 wagon with 700lbs of mascara) Nissan Z (An overweight sportcar with a chintzy interior) MB S-class (I can't get over the fender flares) 5 more to come.... Pontiac Solstice (the better developed product is available next door as a Sky) Ford Edge (See CX-7 with an extra 400lbs.) GMT-900 P/U (Excellent product in a 1970's era competition) Hyundai Sonata (replaced disgiusting Sebring as rental car of choice) Porsche Cayman ($5k to option delete a convertible top? Unbelieveably stupid.)

Even looks good in white, as that's the only one I've seen. An excellent sign, as white generally looks awful....

It's an 06, so it doesn't have the upgraded powertrain, unfortunately. It's a 6 passenger model, FWD---basically a touring model (4 sp., 3.5 V6). It drives like a decent DCX minivan. The interior is nicely equipped (I guess they did away with the base-base model), but I can't endorse it as anything more than a very good looking, space inefficient minivan... I'm a little spoiled, as I drive lots of different cars for extended periods, but this one isn't exactly my cup of tea. A little more power couldn't hurt, but I think the chassis needs work.

It's an 06, so it doesn't have the upgraded powertrain, unfortunately. It's a 6 passenger model, FWD---basically a touring model (4 sp., 3.5 V6). It drives like a decent DCX minivan. The interior is nicely equipped (I guess they did away with the base-base model), but I can't endorse it as anything more than a very good looking, space inefficient minivan... I'm a little spoiled, as I drive lots of different cars for extended periods, but this one isn't exactly my cup of tea. A little more power couldn't hurt, but I think the chassis needs work.

Semi-related, as this platform was initially going to be shared by Mitsu & DCX...I believe development separated around the time DCX left Mitsu for dead a couple of years back.

I'm driving one right now. It's got a great interior (for Chrysler) but the interior space and driving experience leave something to be desired. I like the tall Magnum approach suggested above. Right now its a fancy minivan with a decent rear suspension...if Chrysler would like to move upscale, the chassis needs a complete make-over, not just a redo.

Looks like it will share the underpinings of the Sebring/Avenger.....http://news.windingroad.com/trends/spied-n...jc49-crossover/

There are PLENTY of boards that sing high holy praises of other manufacturer's actions in this regard, meanwhile pointing at GM and triumphantly proclaiming 'See; this is why GM has fallen so far' at every single percieved shortcoming (nevermind the real ones). If this board is a lone voice against the witch-hunt examination & crushing damnation of GM by playing a little 'turn about is fair play' WRT other's problems, who --as a GM fan-- would object? 227114[/snapback] I don't object to fans being fans. I take issue with the constant whining about the media. GM has an equal opportunity to spin or finesse the PR of any situation. The fact that they are constantly behind the curve in this regard is their fault, not anyone else's. As I stated above, GM seems to have its act together and I wholeheartedly agree with their cautious approach to this minor issue. If the product coming soon is as excellent as rumored, great. If it isn't, they're not going to get a 'next time' to fix things.

make that 2 votes.

right. That's what effective PR does in an organization. Blaming Toyota's flacks for being more media friendly or more aggressive or whatever is like blaming a star salesman for selling more product---it's dumb. I believe its a cultural thing...GM used to dictate content to magazines, newspapers, et al because they were the biggest spender...now, not so much. The bully culture was perpetually preventing GM from playing the PR/spin game in a new media era. The rise of e-media has only made that failure more obvious. It looks, again, as if the powers that be understand its a new game, but only time will tell if they will be able to turn the tide.

My only observation is that while I 100% agree that GM is doing the right thing by the customer at the risk of some media fallout, I find it troubling that this board gives little credit to other manufacturers when they do the same thing. The unmitigated joy expressed here when Toyota has a recall or a TSB seems cynical and deeply ironic, given that, other than the 'who', the issue is generally the same or similar. I just can't stand the media bias warcry. It drives me crazy that every GM misstep is excused through that explanation. There's got to be a point in time where GM must own their own mistakes, examine how they occurred and take steps not to repeat the error. I think they're on the right path with many of the new and expected products....lets hope that they aren't blaming 'media bias' in the halls of GM right now as they plan the intros of crucial product.

http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/news/breaking...adia-220814.php Just when the momentumn was starting to build, you get a 'stop sell' for the Lambdas....

The Pacifica will either be rethought as a more minivan-like alternative (as the DCX mini's will not have AWD) or go on the platform underpining the Sebring/Avenger based x-overs that are currently in development. I believe this may have more to do with plant flexibility issues and capacity (with one minivan plant on the chopping block due to recent $ issues, it may leave less room for production) or perhaps DCX is considering a larger x-over to combine Pacifica with Aspen and MB products.) It has been reported that future E-class and Alabama trucks will share much more underpinings with Chrysler products.)

Wow. Haven't heard that one before! (remember the '30' (then '28') pins they had employees wearing a few years back?) Due credit given for the proper spin on the news, however. Low expectations means little disappointment.

Happy to say I completely agree. GM can make class leading & superior product, which is something we've known but they've often not proven. This vehicle (& its mates) has winner written all over it. The only criticism I could offer is the pricing: $43k for a Saturn? That might be a tough sell and seems to indicate that the Enclave will be creeping even higher, especially with a V8/Ultra model in the future. Are we going to see a $50k Buick?

He recently bashed the Lexus LS460, and generally has little nice to say about most design...He's a design critic more than an automotive guy, so he generally comments on aesthetics, not the true quality of the vehicle itself.