enzl

Are you saying that there may have been explosives in those buildings?....cause if you are, any credibility you had just sank to 0.I was in Manhattan that day, sir, and by no means was what happened that day a stunt, ruse or ploy. To use PM's completely unrelated editorial decision to somehow discredit their rankings of your beloved pickups is not just idiotic, its wrong. It's insulting and just pathetic.

Firstly, I'm not defending Hyundai or their history. Second, here's my take, with my experience as management for an extremely large enterprise... For the same reason (psychographics, et al.) that GM is throwing an enormous amount of money at Saturn,-- Hyundai, VW, Land Rover & dozens of other brands have the advantage of never having a negative or, usually, any association in the consumers' mind. This is the opposite of the older GM brands, which have been tarnished by awful product, planning, service and, as a past market leader, everyone knows personally what kind of crap was being turned out....much of it as recently as 3/4 years ago. Conversely, the other, smaller brands have not had the widespread distribution of crap that they produced. In the consumer's minds-eye, this 'hurdle' of negative connotation is HUGE when you're asking someone to throw down $30K or 500/mo for 5 years.... I understand that, conceptually, as GM fans it is hard to recognize this and, furthermore, since you obviously don't feel this way, there's a cognitive dissonance to the very thought of this reality. I can tell you, with years of experience and 1,000's of new/used cars beiong sold out of my dealerships that this is the prevailing attitude amongst most consumers. I can sell domestics on a deal, with the exception of unique or high demand product. I can sell Toyotas & Nissans with an order-taker and a guy doing PDI....the Altima, for instance, had dozens of pre-orders. The new Impala had 2 when it appeared. I can't get Toyota's in fast enough, whereas Chrysler is trying to bribe me to take inventory when I've already got 90 day+ supply on hand. Ford is willing to give us a franchise...the guy down the street handed his back to Ford and sold the property because he couldn't make money as a Ford dealer anymore. That's the reality. You can paint a rosy picture of GM's "recovery" or brag about the fantastic new product that's coming (& it is) but for a better ssense of what is really happening, ask a dealer how they are really doing...it's a bloodbath that is being financed by subvented deals, floorplanning assitance and dealer spiffs that are oftentimes the entirety of the profit on a deal. The logic behind stating that other people sold crap cars too is another excuse, just like media bias.

Absolutely.When they each have millions of dissatisfied consumers avoiding their dealerships like the salesmen spread the plague... ...I should know, as we depend on domestics to keep our facilities running. It's depressing and takes enormous marketing dollars to put fannies in the seats....

exactly my point...Fiat was a failing company who was able to bamboozle the brightest economic minds at GM, bend them over with a rediculous buyout option and then extort the same geniuses into paying them to go away. Incredibly, at the same time, the Fiat product developers were able to take the bones of GM's architectures and create (during a time of extreme duress) Fiats and Alfas that have led their renaissance. Sounds like an expertise the people at GM, Ford or DCX might want to tap when their backs are against the wall, no? Now, who looks like the idiot in that scenario? GM lost twice and got 0 from the relationship, basically. Sounds alot like the Isuzu, Suzuki & Subaru fiascos as well. The 2 billion Fiat got from GM does not explain the sales figures for Fiat and its subs....they lost more than that yearly when struggling....

C'mon..It's a conspiracy? How about this theory: The domestics were so bad for so long that they are given no leeway on new product. Or, the cost disadvantage of the domestic 2.5 is so great that the product cannot possibly be as good. And, if it was the 'media conglomerates' influencing the content, why is it that almost every upstart website has the same or worse to say for most pre-05 domestic products? It's just an excuse. Are the domestics getting better? Absolutely. Are they there yet? Not on your life. The relentless competition in a 'mature' industry competing on a global scale with millions of cars worth of overcapacity results in some crazy swings and, unfortunately, has trapped the 2.5 in the bottom of the barrel, as it currently stands. Look no further than Europe for what is happening here now. Although, ironically, the last european in the barrel (Fiat) looks a hell of a lot better than when they were in bed with GM. Coincidence?

So long as the article is positive on GM products?I have to chuckle at the inconsistency. How often is C&D dismissed here as an import-shilling rag? I don't take issue with N* per se, just that this logical inconsistency (C&D is being 'fair' to the Silverado, but cruel to the Saturn placing 4th in a weak group of competitors.)

Ick...a RAV4 on steroids. Another yawner from Toyota, which unfortunately, probably won't matter to the marketplace as Toyotas simply don't sell on appearances.

Just pointing out that I'm familiar with the competition. Not trying to sell anybody on anything in particular.And yes, the Toyota Tacoma, with its flaws, is more reliable and a better truck than the C/C's. It'll be worth something in 3 years and is, quite frankly, a much more functional piece than the C/C's.

First, I'll address, for the upteenth time, that anecdotal evidence (ie first hand experience or a 'story') is a sampling of ONE....no statistical or logical inference can be drawn from it. Second, as I have a job that occassionally requires my attention, I just haven't had a chance to post...please feel free to contact me personally through the site if you have a pressing need... Third, I work for an auto retailer....we have 15 franchises between parent, subsidiary and affiliated co.s'....Our largest retailer is our Chevy store... Someone above noted that the early build C/C twins were problematic...that is true, based on the extensive warranty costs associated with the few units we've put on the road...if you need some independent info, here you go: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/ty...t_pickup_trucks Consumer reports sez bottom of the barrel. Additionally, if you took the time to look at any of my postings, you would have known that I'm in the industry and know a little more than the average poster...the C/C twins are poster children for pre-Lutz bone head moves, IMO. Too small, cheap and flat out not competitive is not a way to enter a vicious marketplace. I've had extensive seat time in it and its competition. It's just not what GM should be doing with their resources. The best thing I can say about the C/C's is that the H3 they share a factory with is minting money for GM.

Umm. Gotta disagree.We sell Toyotas, Nissans, Chevy's and Dodge trucks...the Colorado is small, cheaply made and depreciates like it fell off a cliff. Add underpowered and small and you've got yourself a complete guide to these vehicles. Oh, and they're not too reliable either. Wait for a certified example with GM's 100k Used Warranty and you'll be alot happier with your purchase, IMO.

I could be bugging, but I could have sworn I saw an AWD Charger on the lot recently...could it be a 'quiet' change to '07 option list?

I'll go on record with this defense of the Compass ads:They're selling at a 48K/year clip, even with the mutant styling and piss poor interior...Jeep is going to end up selling 100K/yr. between Compatriots....not bad for a brand that will easily lose the 100k in Gcherokee/commander sales and will ultimately allow Chrysler to defend an historically high marketshare-- -And the ads are annoying, but the bobblehead/music ad is attention getting---just not a good Jeep-brand ad. We sell everyone that comes in...and lots of non-car-types like the idea of a loaded 'Jeep' for 22k. I haven't seen 'em stacked like cordwood at the dealerships, yet. I'll check production numbers...AN sez 10k+ built in January with the Patriot just starting build.

Umm, the disaster that the Big 2.5 have become is mostly because their American fiefdoms routinely ignored the globalization of other, growing international competitors.There's no rational reason for Ford of Europe's fantastic product not to be here, when Toyota sells nearly identical product globally. Bear in mind that Ford provided the resources necessary to develop the full line of Mazda products & most of the Volvo growth is predicated upon the transfer of its tech to other Ford-owned products, eventually. Putting their zenophobic and short-sighted heads in the sand is part of the big 2's huge problems today.

Volvo has always been profitable, however, the problem with the English Patients has always been an attempt to Supply markets that didn't Demand the volume...Jags chase for volume was a disaster, which contrasts with BMW, who create demand and then supply product.Mercury, much like other middle class brands, has suffered a squeeze from the Targets (Hyundai, Kia, Honda) & the Saks' (BMW, Lexus, Audi) on either side...Merc is necessary for Lincoln dealerships, but as a brand, its almost completely irrelevant---declining US interest and Zero International sales. I would argue the Firestone Fiasco & Ford's abandonment of the Taurus are almost as much to blame as Euro brands.

Franchise Laws limit the manufacturer's ability to do so....I think the interesting part of this article is the simple supply /demand issue. Less competition for customers= more $ per transaction = better revenues. Unfortunately, the 5%/year reduction in dealer points will only get the 2.5 so far...

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID...1014/BUSINESS01

Therein lies the rub, eh?Unfortunately, Lutz wasn't too far off when he described Pontiac as 'damaged.' I believe that the Solstice has given the brand hope for the future. every new product must carry some of those genes, or Pontiac is DOA after Wagonner gets his walking papers. The B-P-GMC channel system could reduce Pontiac to a niche brand very shortly.

Guys- They're eating the Big 2.5's lunch. On the ground, foot traffic at our Toyota place far outdistances our Chevy count. Counting Scions (maybe GM shouldn't count Saturn?), fleet sales or voodoo, its a bloodbath. '07 will be a year of consistent bad sales numbers, as fleeting shifts from the 2.5 to other manufacturers....remember, each fleet sale lost puts you 2 back of the competition that picks up the sale. Hyundai seems to be making the same mistake Mitsu did and have been the main beneficiaries of the 2.5's reductions. That's just reality. As a retailer on one of the coasts, I'm painfully aware of the difficulties, as we have all 2.5 represented in our portfolio.

Unfortunately, its going to be a long year for the 2.5... ...I just caught a glimpse of our regional GM sales. There are some retailers out there that are screwed. 25-60% of targeted numbers are the norm! (We, of course, were #1 in the region, by about 50 units and one of two stores to hit targeted numbers - out of approximately 35 stores.) Scary.

I've got to assume that GM has done extensive market research regarding potential customers and their attitude towards Saturn... ...obviously, the status quo wasn't working and the future hinged upon economically reinventing the line-up. I think they've done a great job so far... I can only base my theory on anecdotal evidence, but it seems to me that, generally, consumers have either a somewhat positive or zero opinion of Saturn..which is probably head and shoulders above the general perception of most GM brands. . (I think non-car people don't even know its a GM product.)

I've gotta agree with GXP....that supposed comment regarding a Honda exec is a perfect example of just how desperate some people here are to get good news...Ironically, I don't doubt that the Lambda trips are a better effort than the next Pilot....they should be. The fact that somehow this fact/opinion is made more likely by some e-mail evidence of somebody else's conversation strains credibility and really, if used by the 'import humpers' to further a point would be shot down immediately.As for the Volt, its a handsome machine that hopefully has a future....Toyota will be out with a Generation 3 Prius before long....the Volt is doomed to be a pretty 'what if'...the Prius is currently available & certain to have a serious hardware upgrade shortly. Just my .02...I think the pessimism is valid.

Umm. It's a Camaro. GM should be putting that kind of exceptional effort to make it great.Let's not have 'em break an arm patting themselves on the back, yet. When marketshare rises, then they'll be worried. Until then, GM's renaissance is in it's infancy.

IIRC, Fiat Group would have been the partner that helped provide the V6 diesel, which would of found its way into Saabs, Alfas, Fiats & Euro Caddy's....One of the 'benefits' of the Fiat disaster was supposed to be access to Euro friendly diesels, in 4 & 6 cylinder formats. It also makes you wonder how Isuzu was misused as a resource for diesel engine development. It's my understanding that they are working with new partner Toyota on a range of diesels. My prediction is that you'll see 300k Caddy's sold in the US well before you see 20K sold in europe. (If there's an 'expansion' of the US line to include a BLS & a BRX, that 300k should be sooner than later.)

I think Caddy needs to have the BLS-type product, just not the BLS. If the BLS was a small 08 CTS-like product, it would be a much easier item to sell. The BLS, as it sits, is too much Epsilon, too little Cadillac for most tastes. If the 9-3 it's based on were class leading, then it would be less of a bitter pill to swallow, but still a compromise, at best. To me, GM's $ and energy are better spent on Saab in Europe, with Cadillac, Hummer & Corvette as niche machines. Saab sells well in the UK & has a passable reputation elsewhere. Saab can also get away with FWD underpinings on its smallest offerings, making a platform sharing, US produced, '9-1' or '9-2' product very doable....

The point was that most, if not all co.'s have their issues, foreign & domestic alike...how does a drop in HP equate with rollovers? Read up on the history of Detroit....you'll see exactly who's been 'hurt'....Is children's lead poisoning a good thing? How about Henry Ford's publication of hate-rags or the thugs that nearly extingusihed the modern labor movement (& the source of ALL U.S. labor law that protects you & I on the job.)? Oooo...my Hyundai's down on HP...Guess the Indy 500 is out this year. C'mon, man. You cannot compare fudging a couple of HP with clear safety issues, regardless of how infrequent. I'm not defending the foreign makes as angels, just pointing out the logical inconsistency in your examples.