enzl

All I'm doing is spelling out reality. If you read carefully, you'd have understood that Toyota's treatment of temp workers is as relevant to this conversation as Ford's tactics 80 years ago: AN ANALOGY!Second, I love Detroit (the city & the motor industry)---I HATE that the slow burn of the 2.5 will leave that city, along with others, as smoldering wastelands of poverty and broken promises. Japan, Inc. is creating jobs---are they Union-style, work 'til you die jobs? NO. But you're a hypocrite because you'll bash the Union and what they're doing to GM in another thread. The 'Wal-Martization' of unskilled jobs began long ago and, if you look at the current issues with GM's Lordstown and epsilon factories, you'll see that part of the labor impasse is that GM wants Non-union (i.e. low wage, low benefit) janitorial staff! In other words, GM WOULD do the same, if it COULD! It can't because of the Union contracts. Do you expect the transplants (BTW, Korea and Germany are also doing this) to just give Union wages and rules to ALL of their employees because their US competitors are stuck within that framework. That's like an NFL team deciding not to use 5 yds. of width of the field because they know their competitor is slower and cannot compete on a full playing field. Doesn't happen in the real world, my friend. Blame should go where its deserved. Making excuses for others failings is, in psychological terms, being an ENABLER. That has nothing to do with Morals or Integrity. You don't know me, so don't judge me because I disagree with you---Morality is when my employees have to feed their families, so I acquire a business with a more optimistic outlook, so that those people and I can benefit and stay gainfully employed. Integrity is being the #1 Domestic dealer in my region and meeting or exceeding sales targets when 75% of my region misses theirs---for 4 years runnning. Ironically, you should be THANKING me, as I'm selling more when others sell less. You're right. I'm a collaborator with those that want to run successful businesses they're proud of....perhaps when you have 400+ people depending upon your decisions and your morals and your integrity, I'll be more concerned about your misinformed opinion of me.

Try to sell your home (to move) or find a job in Mi. after 10-30 years at an autoplant. Temp workers are hired as temps, no illusions there. We're straying from the topic at hand. Jobs are jobs. Unemployment, sinking property values (which eliminate or minimize the overall economic value of the buyout) and the shear depression of seeing tens of thousands turned out on the street after being promised cradle to grave support and care. A temp job is just that. Any expectation beyond is not reasonable. A Union contract, however, spells out the exact way your lifetime employment will be handled. I just don't understand defending the indefensible. The caretakers at the big 2.5 have driven those institutions into the ground. As a fan, it angers me. As an industry guy, it makes me want to go out and acquire import dealerships, as clearly, the message isn't sinking in in Detroit or here!

Umm...Henry Ford almost singlehandedly stopped the modern labor movement with mafia-style overlords and thugs beating 'dissident' workers...Each story has the same relevance. Some anecdote you read about on the interweb vs. fact. Even if true, I'd rather have a job for 2.99 years than be an ex-autoworker trying to sell his home/get a new job in Michigan.

Lets just end this 'intellectual' discussion by agreeing that you don't want me deciding anything for you and you can stay away from my choices. GM, Ford and DCX have all basically committed to shedding tons of US jobs. I can't believe that co.'s in the midst of hiring US workers are criticized for growth and opportunities.

By your logic, if you don't understand what someone does for a living or if a foreign co. created that position, that job doesn't count. MMM, OK. Toyota & Honda=more jobs....Big 3=Layoffs & payoffs to go away. That's not PR, its a fact!New York, in case you missed the news in the past 200 yrs, is the Capital of the World. You can ascribe all kinds of preconceived notions to its inhabitants, but I assure you they work & play & (apparently) think alot harder about things than you do. California, if separated out from the rest of the US, would have one of the top 10 economies in the world. At least if you sounded reasonable, I'd give ya a break. PS-Who should be limiting our choices for us? Gov't? Church? You? Please.

"The Reckoning" by the recently deceased D. Halberstram, was published, IIRC, in the 80's.Perhaps a read by some on this board would be intructive? CARBIZ--just one, philosophical question: If GM is adding jobs elsewhere and cutting them here, why should I root for them? (BTW-the key stat you site is that somone was ADDING jobs, not sending them to a 3rd world country so that Lutz' golden parachute gets paid. Also, there are tons of US co.'s kicking ass and innovating? Ever spend time in Sillicon Valley or the Financial Centers in NYC? There are plenty of US co.'s paying great wages to citizens....The myopic, 'just good enough' nature of the Big 2.5 has come home to roost. The upheaval is life threatening for these hallowed American institutions. The difference between you and me is that I think the response is inadequate, you obviously think that they're doing well---but we're both fans. At least you're not threatening to ban me 'cause we disagree.

That's the Chevy...and possibly one other brand, if the hints dropped are true. Unfortunately, '09 MY, IIRC (for the Chevy)

...which means MORE vehicles and parts being built overseas, thus LESS U.S. Jobs available...Is an American car made in China. Tailand or Korea really an American car? GMDAT will supply small vehicles to the states. The Aveo has sold 80k copies in its best year? So, in exchange for seeing the Buick, Chevy and other Zetas One year or more late, we're going to get some rebadged B-cars. Excuse me for not being enthused. The Vue is a fantastic example of what the future holds. Developed in Korea, Built in Mexico, the Vue's Spring Hill plant is off line for a year....and actually, they're much luckier than most situations, as they finally have a future product replacing Saturn production. I don't recall seeing the Park Avenue that the Chinese have, nor their superior LaCrosse in US showrooms, so those investments are not, currently, helping Buick and their sales/relevance freefall. I don't believe that more jobs or more product is coming to NA. There will be less jobs, benefits and less communities getting GM money for infrastructure or tax base. Believe what you want. The BS about global development really means 'Less here, more where its cheaper.' Ironic as the dreaded, awful Asians continue to built plants, engineering centers and dealerships across the US. (But those aren't 'real' jobs, right? )

Don't like what I have to say? Banning me won't solve GM's problems...I'm just pointing out logical inconsistencies.For instance, more overseas spending and Cash crunch = less $ for US product, Why do you think Impala was delayed on the heels of a massive investment in GMDAT? What I do should be immaterial. The only reason I mention it is to point out that reality from the fanbase might help reality sink in over at the RenCen. It's time for Rick to go....the product cadence that should have raised overall retail sales is falling short of projections. The GMT900's were pulled ahead to avoid a cash crunch. VS--If you actually read and undestood my posts, you'd see they were realistic, not anti...but feel free to get rid of me if you must. Ostrich.

Mmmm. seems I beat 'em to the story? 2.b. GM's success elsewhere (including more sales outside the US than here at home in '06) means that, eventually, GM will move even more of its production out of the US. Will you be humping their leg when 60%, 70% or 80% of GM's production is not made in the US? Maybe you should be critiquing GM's awful management and product decisions that resulted in the loss of jobs...or their decision to spin off Delphi and throw Americans out of good jobs.... On may 2, http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry277503

Thanks. That is my point...I'm not a hater, I'm a realist. I realize that this board isn't receptive to these ideas, but I think they're valid and coming from someone who lives and breathes the industry we all love.People will not walk into a GM store. You'll never sell a car to someone who won't even look. Ironically, those who do look tend to come away impressed with many of GM's latest efforts.

1. GM is circulating a falselt misleading memo, I saw it yesterday morning! The world press is accurately reporting huge, historic news.2. Hyundai began by producing Mitsu castoffs. 3. Lexus/Infiniti ideas were both scoffed at by all leading co.s' as terrible ideas before intro. Obviously, these doubters were wrong. Analogy missed: reaction to Hyundai's vision is similar, at least as far as I can tell from your opinions on the topic!

It's a source of amazement for me: A hard charging, focused company (that just happens not to be 'merican) is kicking ass and taking names internationally, growing from a marginal producer of other people's products to a multinational conglomerate in two decades, AND the ostriches don't believe they can take that next, logical step.Read what the press said about Lexus and Infiniti before those brands were introduced. They're syaing similar things about Hyundai and its intentions today! As far as GM's 'big steps'---they need to know that this threat is out there....you guys can't seem to wrap your minds around the idea that today's ambition is tomorrow's reality for the Koreans. Again, a failure to recognize and anticipate the competition has placed GM in the precarious position they're in today. Oh, and just in case you think that I'm bashing GM without cause---they're currently handing out documents to dealers that breakdown the top 15 markets in the world, trying to indicate that GM is 'Still #1' overall, if you leave out the rest of the world! In a nutshell, that's the type of shortsighted, crappy, misleading spin that gets them believing their own BS. It also completely undermines their public stance that emerging markets are where growth is coming from! Many of these markets are conveniently absent from internal memoranda, yet are being used to trumpet GM's 'comeback' for the stock market and PR machine! I have no love for Hyundai---and a great compassion & hope for GM, but if you're trying to hit a moving target, you must aim steps ahead---and they're barely keeping up with the competition, as a bloated product lineup and yesterday's thinking continually fights for limited resources. You want to cheerlead, I want them to survive as a viable company. That's the essential difference. Tough love is harder, but more useful than being an enabler. GM should be treated like it has a problem, because, rest assured, it has some monumental ones.

I'll assume I'm a referenced 'Toyota Apologist', so I'll take a crack at answering your query:1. Toyota (the company) & the rest of the Japanese manufacturers benefit from the Japanese Gov't active policies and the US government's lack of a sufficient spine to address the imbalance. Vote the US officials out of office, but don't blame corporations for taking advantage...that's what they're supposed to do....(And before you make it a Japanese thing, keep in mind that there are plenty of predatory, soulless US companies that do the same thing in their realm (Exxon-Mobil & Haliburton come immediately to mind.) 2. a. GM is doing well in emerging markets (China, Russia, India) because the competition is not entrenched, yet. While you can make the mistake of assuming that that success should be easy to duplicate in a mature market like the US, Western Europe or Japan, the challenges are vastly different....if you look at the GM-DAT product being sold in record numbers, there's nothing that we need to bring here, its mostly 3rd world mediocrity. 2.b. GM's success elsewhere (including more sales outside the US than here at home in '06) means that, eventually, GM will move even more of its production out of the US. Will you be humping their leg when 60%, 70% or 80% of GM's production is not made in the US? Maybe you should be critiquing GM's awful management and product decisions that resulted in the loss of jobs...or their decision to spin off Delphi and throw Americans out of good jobs.... 3. The Japanese have succeeded as a result of GM, Ford and DCX's arrogance, greed and short-sighted product planning. The media bashing and all other points are excuses. Nothing more or less. You don't need excuses when you're doing thing right. 4. It's absolutely Un-American to tell others that their choices should be limited. You want to buy American---go ahead. What about Chevy's made in Korea or Ford's made in Mexico or GM's made in Australia? Are those OK or no good? It's a global economy, my friend. GM is just waking up to that fact. I hope its not too late. We may all be flipping burgers...some of us will be in the suit and tie, others manning the fryer. With your logic and analytical abilities, I'm sure you'll be comfortable with your place in that society.

I'm not rooting for anyone, in fact, I have more to gain personally from GM's rebound than their failure......but from where I sit, GM is not doing nearly enough to reverse their slide. Are the products better? Absolutely---but that is not a great accomplishment, based on the mediocrity that preceded their new stuff. The media lives by the motto 'if it bleeds, it leads'. If you don't think that the travails of GM, formerly the Largest Company in the World is newsworthy, then I guess you'll never get my point... If apologists would stop saying that OK is good enough, maybe some down at the RenCen will get off their ass and really start aggressively addressing the real issues.

You know, if the Queen had testicles, she'd be King!

1) Real car guy does the smart thing and gets a high-line CPO vehicle, which, if bought carefully, has a better warranty than new, has had someone else take the first depreciation hit and is much better than what you can buy new at $30K2) Blue-tec diesels- either the US embraces the clean diesel or we continue to fool ourselves that Hybrids are the future 3) Trim production in anticipation of 'bu launch. Put some real marketing muscle behind the vehicle. Maybe find an ad agency with a set of balls? 4)Niche vehicles. Full line manufacturers taking a bit of Scion and a dash of Bentley/Aston/Ferrari with computing tech, manufacturing flexibility and 'merican obsession with individuality all converging to give small production batches of unique, mainstream vehicles an opportunity to make money for the respective producers. Ford actually may have hit upon a good idea (albeit poor execution) when they created the various Mustangs and the F-flex Expedition. Scion's personalization campaign, the Kappa roadsters & MB's AMG sub-brand are all pointing the way to the future of automotive retailing. The difference is that the personalization may be more practical in nature---perhaps dog-owners or the elderly driver may be the target, as examples of the micro-fracturing of the marketplace.

Are we only left with rooting against Toyota as our consolation prize? Sad. Very sad. Maybe it is Rick's time to go?

2 less selling days?, which is approximately 6% of the total sales days.....They were actually up 6%+, weighting the numbers to make comparison apples to apples...http://www.autoblog.com/2007/05/01/by-the-...ers-april-2007/

Here's my issues:1. Saturn is producing the best product in its history, covering a broader swath of market than ever...but, if you're not a car guy, you wouldn't know it. Therefore: The message that this product even exists is being garbled by typical GM divisional wrangling, as, clearly, the budgeted ad spending is woefully insufficient 2. Inviting fans for an info session is nice, but its not marketing your product to those that need to hear about the great new product. Fly is 100% correct that the program wasn't expensive, but I'd argue that taking that $21,000 estimated cost to some creative marketing program (a al Mini) would have garnered more attention...a really creative program gets FREE news coverage (Mini's billboard transponder 3. The bias referred to here is a bogus argument. It's an accumulated debt that, unfortunately, needs to be paid before the press gets off the domestics' backs. In the news business, bad news always gets more press, period. There's been a constant stream of mediocrity that must be purged from the showrooms. My take, while admittedly negative, is only because I see, from the reality of day-to-day showroom/inventory issues, the actual effect of GM, ford and DCX's follies. I call it like I see it and something has got to change, quickly. IIRC, More than half of the domestic dealer body lost money last year. No matter how good the product, if the consumer interaction is with these suffering businesses, the end result will not be good for anyone involved. Saturn has been allowed to wither on the vine...now its getting the product, but where is the proper marketing? I guess I understand the logic of events like the one Fly attended, I just don't believe that these things really work. Preaching to the converted seems like a waste of time, energy and money. They have customer surveys to gauge product weakness....they need import intenders to show up at dealerships ready to buy. The GM Card example you site is just one example of the BS that has mucked up an already bleak picture for GM. I'm actually hopeful that the new product will set things right, but I just see too much of the 'same old' from GM and it concerns me deeply.

every journey starts with a first step.What makes you think Korea won't surpass the Japanese, eventually?

On the heels of GM's supposed delay/pullback of the Zeta program, I'd say they've got a shot....remember, not too long ago "Made in Japan" implied cheap & crappy.Kudos to Hyundai for having the balls to take a chance....

And unfortunately, not much more...

Thank you.Sorry to be curt, but I needed a cogent explanation. I feel alot better.

Taking your ball and going home, huh?I just would really like an explanation from an 'expert' admin as to how the General benefits from these 'events'. Since you're not talking, anyone else care to enlighten me?---I'd genuinely like to understand.