enzl

It looks 'right' in person....no reason that it shouldn't do better than the current CTS. Let's hope the coupe/vert/wagon get here soon. Caddy should be able to sell 100k with all variants.

I'm flabergasted by your denial, so I'll lay out the issues, point by point:1. YOU can believe what you want. It's a free country, but here's the reality: GM cannot charge what it needs to to make a profit on MOST of the vehicles it sells. It needs to change that scenario, and quickly, as its making LESS on the stuff it used to make a killing on (GMT900's specifically). The day of the half-ass, just good enough product is OVER. You can sell to bargain hunters, those with poor credit & the undereducated only so long until even those people realize what the General's been cooking.... So, when I enter my HHR, a $25k (!) product when new 12 months ago, and my infant son's play toys have nicer plastics....I begin to worry. The vehicle has 18K miles on it, can't get out of its own way on the highway with a relatively light load and the 6CD UPGRADED stereo sounds like sh!t, I become a little more worried. Now let's top that off with a trade-in value somewhere around $15k for this mediocrity AND now you have a customer that's completely irate and out about $10k+ in one model year! 2. I cannot comment on selling cars in Toronto, however, to be quite honest, it doesn't matter that much, as that market clearly has its own unique selling environment. Selling cars in LA, SF, NY, Phoenix and other major cities is important. People aren't entering GM showrooms...they've abandoned the brands--completely. That's why I can't stand the 'Good Enough' brigade. First, it's a cop-out, since it implies that GM is incapable of building superior product. Second, slowing declining market share will not help GM, the slide must be reversed. 'As good as the Camry for less' or whatever you're spouting above is drivel---GM should be aiming for superiority-in safety, in performance, in economy, in style, in quality. I don't want to hear about union contracts and healthcare...those are excuses. Perhaps I expect more. I think I have the right to demand it, as someone who's dependent upon GM to do their jobs while I'm doing mine. No team wants to feel sandbagged by their own teammate. That's how many GM affiliates, and even loyalists, feel.

Ironically (and unfortunately) it's that type of wishful thinking on the part of the domestics ('wait 'til next years model' or 'this is a Accord/Camry beater') that has resulted in the current situation.Wishing somethinng to be true will never make it so. The domestics need to push beyond competitive or they're dead. No cars are perfect. But the domestics are just a smidge further from it than they need to be at this time. I find it incredible that the most encouraging sign of domestics opportunity is in T/H/N's failure. That's not going to get those that abandoned the US automakers into showrooms.

Textbook example of how you don't 'get' it.The reason the people in your showroom don't mention the appearance, NVH, ergonomic or build quality issues is because: a. Not on their radar screens b. They would buy domestic anyway. Many people like the perception of quality when they shell out the 2nd biggest outlay (house #1) a consumer can make. The proof is in the sales figures, my friend. I drive GM vehicles all the time....with the exception of a few products, I would assert that they have NOT sweated details that make a car/truck great to live with. My beefs: Seats- rarely better than mediocre....litterally a pain in the ass over time Radios-again, rarely very good in your average vehicles Plastics- Lots of fisher-price, too little low gloss, high quality stuff where you'd touch feel and use it daily.... Too few 'surprise and delight' features---you know 'em, the kind your friend riding in the car sez 'that's cool!' Almost every product, almost every time....its not a coincidence. With few exceptions, the low mileage examples I hop onto only look worse for wear vs. showroom floor examples.

Devastatingly accurate, unfortunately.I went to the NY Autoshow with friends....they actively avoided the domestic stands, like there was an outbreak of something highly contageous. Really, truly frightening if you're a GM, Ford or Chrysler fan. I really don't believe that some people on this board understand how problematic this is going forward. It's more of an indicator of the efforts that must be undertaken immediately if the ship can be saved. Arguing about 'competitveness' is a joke....all 3 car makers need the equivalent of a lunar landing-type effort...

Ummm...thread was about putting Camry's where New 'Bu buyers can see 'em....and someone else (ahem) thought it would be a good idea to compare the CRV and the 'Nox. I disagree vehemently. The Nox is not class leading. Period. exclamation Point.The walk-around feature-for-feature comparison for Salespeople is great (we do it at all dealerships with trainers). But, having a customer compare and contrast with test drives and actual competitors vehicles present may not be, for what I believe are obvious reasons--including salesmen not being able to effectively counter objections, etc.... I also give full credit for Chevy's excellent product (GMT900's, vette), CarBiz....and I've never stated that H & T are universally better than anything ---(although, if you truly, honestly go model for model, it is arguable that H, T & a number of others make better product in a majority of segments) ---just that GM is falling behind many manufacturers in many segments.... the 08 'bu better be excellent, anything less and its doomed.

The problem is the execution....I'm not sure that a large portion of salespeople would be able to effectively compare and contrast....I've gotta tell you, though, if you actually believe that a CRV vs. Equinox comparison would bode well for the Chevy....I don't think so. I'd sooner concentrate on models with clear selling points and areas of superiority (Silverado, Tahoe/Suburban, 'vette) than some of GM's weaker links. I'm currently in an HHR and, I'm sorry to say, it's not good. The engine, the plastics, the visibility, and even the economy just reeks of old GM-think....

The problem is the execution....I'm not sure that a large portion of salespeople would be able to effectively compare and contrast....I've gotta tell you, though, if you actually believe that a CRV vs. Equinox comparison would bode well for the Chevy....I don't think so. I'd sooner concentrate on models with clear selling points and areas of superiority (Silverado, Tahoe/Suburban, 'vette) than some of GM's weaker links. I'm currently in an HHR and, I'm sorry to say, it's not good. The engine, the plastics, the visibility, and even the economy just reeks of old GM-think....

Mets. Also a season ticket holder, since 95...

I personally don't like the Tracker, but there were alot of customers who did. A Cobalt based small ute, below the 'nox, would have made more sense than the HHR, IMO.I've always been surprised that GM/Suzuki didn't stay more firmly in this sector in the States, as the Vitara's grandfather, the Samurai, really got Suzuki going here in the States.

Solara 'vert might be the worst car in Toyota's line-up, IMO. Cowl shake and squeaky trim are standard, from purchase. The Mustang back seat is going to be a deal breaker. unfortunately, the only US suggestion is the new Sebring or PT, which has a surprising amount of backseat room. Another possibility is a CPO Saab, which has a great warranty and such a steep depreciation curve that it might be within reach for this individual, if you factor in an aggressive financing rate.

...and the unfortunate upshot is that the GMT-900's are not selling as expected, incentives were just raised, meaning that the rest of the Zeta program has been imperiled.Camaro without the rest of the products is not good. (Please note, they did find Billions to fund GM-DAT small car programs in Korea. That move will set the general tone for GM in the future, unfortunately.)

While an excellent suggestion....It baffles me that a New Car dealership wouldn't have a Camry sitting around in the used car department. Pick it up at auction or save a trade, I just don't see the suggestion as genius at work, just common sense. The Malibu/Impala overlap should be of utmost concern...if the new Impy isn't out within a year or so of the new 'bu, you will have a situation which results in cannabilization of sales in the showroom. I'm not sure there's anything GM can do about that, as the cadence of introductions (especially with the 'pause' for Zeta) will leave something to be desired. I also believe that if the new 'bu is not superior to the Camry then all hope for converting import intenders will be lost in this segment. I haven't driven or sat in the new 'bu, so I'm hopeful GM will get it right. 'Just as good' won't cut it in this category, as the new Accord will also be available. Should be an interesting fight, however.

Exact problem....4 cylinder, perhaps even a manual tranny with a killer base price might have been wiser than 2 sixes as well.

I haven't read the text of the claim, however, with Class Actions, its almost immaterial what the claim is, as the phase which sets a class and defines the harm takes years, hundreds of lawyers billable hours and can be a PR debacle, which, at the end of the day, is really the harm to GM itself.It's another sign of the tin ear GM regularly displays.

If a class action is a 'legal entanglement', then clearly, you have no idea how invasive, expensive and time consuming a class action can be.Right or not, GM will end up paying in legal fees, PR points and another unneeded association with a decision that leaves loyal customers high & dry.

Cute. Point made---but if you go back to the original posts on this topic months ago...I was nearly alone in my opinion that this thing would become a legal and PR nightmare. At least a periodic, begrudging acknowledgment, Fly?---oh, BTW, still no Saturn events in my area...nor a billboard for the Outlook or Aura...and they've still got the old Saturn dealer down the street boarded up....pure genius.

Man, its too easy being right. I think the fact OnStar was/is promoted as a safety device is the big issue. I thought it would be a roadside death in an analog On Star auto....I guess the class-action attorneys got there first. Yet another PR debacle for the RenCen....

Blame anyone you want. Part of Detroit's problem is that everyone else is to blame: The Gov't with safety, emissions or currency, the Japanese transplants with their lack of legacy baggage, the press with its Media Bias...its a joke, whether you're aware of it or not.Again, you've avoided the principal flaw in your argument: If GM, Ford or DCX are no longer, net/net creating jobs for Americans, then your logic dictates that YOU should no longer support them. Again, you've avoided the other problem with your stance: Japan is a country, the companies that are based there are USING Japanese policy (currency, prime rate & gov't healthcare) to their advantage. I'm not sure why they shouldn't. David Halberstram laid out the future of the domestics back in the 80's with The Reckoning...so there's been plenty of advance notice, if anyone in charge was paying attention. They obviously didn't. Umm, and as far as your other points: Unemployment is at a near all time, historical low here in the states....so that flow of jobs out of the country has clearly been replaced with something....Union membership is less than half of all time highs, so these people must have gotten jobs somewhere. And, as a final nail in your perspective: The US does business with all kinds of questionable countries, with corrupt regimes & oppressive social climates: China, Every Middle Eastern oil producing nation on the planet, Russia & the CIS, Venezuela, et al...if you're going to single out Japan, an ally, a democracy, a peaceful nation, an intellectual powerhouse and a producer of some of the world's finest, most sophisticated products... Then I just can't agree with you. Flawed argument, twisted logic and questionable theory is an indication of either ignorance or craziness. I'm not sure which, but some anecdote about your 'friends' being this or that doesn't mean anything to me. Oh, & BTW, would my argument have anymore weight with you if I told you our flagship store was a US make? Or that we sell more of that make than anyone in our region? Or that we recently purchased not 1, but 2 mutiple franschises that were entirely US makes? (Both of which we rescued from the gutter like a lost puppy.) Or that our company will sell more cars this month than most franchises sell in a decade? If you really believe that selling Japanese (and I've noticed that Korean and europeans are conspiculously absent) vehicles is somehow wrong or employing Americans in this endevour is unworthy, I find it hard to believe even this site's populous would support that view. We live in a world growing smaller by the day. You better get used to it. Buy what you want to buy, but I doubt much of the clothes on your back, the electronics in your house or probably the supplies to build your home were made here. You're about 20 years behind the reality of global economics---and it sounds like you're angrily unaware of it.

1. You sound like a racist. That's my call. 2. MITI has the Japanese gov't behind it. If Japanese concerns ignored the advantages provided, they'd be fools. 3. Back Door= Crap product until competition drove them to improve. 4. 'Choice' isn't just about buying something, its about creating something. Like Jobs. Which I provide for others everyday. How could one be more patriotic than employing another American? If GM is shedding jobs here and adding them in Korea, China, India or eastern Europe, then, by your standards, they're doing something wrong. So, should you buy a GM and support that? Your logic has that one, huge flaw---I say, buy the best, let entrepreneurs create jobs in new ways (as always) and sit back with your remote and pizza (as I guarantee, your remote wasn't made in the US),,,or just get up and change the channel the old fashioned way! People like you stifle those that see the future. You hide behind empty logic that doesn't apply and live in the past...It doesn't work, my friend.

Your above comentary is exactly why I'm rude to you, you cherry pick what you want and throw away the rest of a logical thought:First-I never said business shouldn't have a conscience, I only said that businesses were in Biz to make $. At the end of the day, workers feelings and all that warm fuzzy crap is what keeps workers happy and motivated and efficient. But, believe me, it all starts at the bottom line---It's clear you don't have formal biz training, but can't you understand that if a biz doesn't make $, there's no money to pay all those workers you want to give a hug to! Second, ever hear that two wrongs don't make a right? If the Japanese are xenophobic, that gives YOU the right to feel badly about them. If you've ever attended Sunday school or learned about MLK, I'm sure you stumbled upon the previous statement, or how about turning the other cheek? regardless of your valid points, they gets lost in the fog of ignorance you surround yourself with. Our open markets and our freedoms are based on a noble premise. If we are to curtail those things, we no longer remain who we are. Sometime this works for us, other times it doesn't. You're still completely absolving the domestics of blame for leaving their back doors open and not expecting someone to come in. first, they stole the sliverware---now they're throwing you out of your house---but we let 'em in in the first place.

Both CarBiz and Reg are way oversimplifying complex international issues, including trade, monetary policy, geopolitics, et al... US Companies started the outsourcing of manufacturing. Companies don't really have a conscience, they have mgmt and a board---all under the gun to make $. To say that Honda makes its money wrong, yet Suzuki makes it the right way just doesn't make sense. You're confusing the symptoms of the US Co.'s sickness with the cause. A weak, poorly managed US industry got caught with its collective pants down and handed this situation to the Japanese companies. They would have been foolish to refuse said gift. (BTW-CarBiz-your rant borders on the xenophobic--it seems to me our domination by 'Westerners' wouldn't bother you as much. Just the way it comes across)

Don't worry. I'm fairly certain you'll never have the opportunity to work for me. I never said Profit=Everything, just that it does = jobs....or else how would I pay people, Sherlock? I've been in the business world for my entire adult life. I'd venture to say I was the best boss a majority of my employees have EVER had. You obviously understand the nuances required to maintain a positive relationship with your staff. I'm fairly certain I do that everyday--I'm assuming your drawing conclusions about me from the wicked intellectual whipping I've been giving you. Sorry, you pissed me off. Since you've now offered no counter argument to anything substantive, I'll assume this thread is dead, as it should be.

If I'm offending you, I'm sorry.I'm passionate about this industry. When I see the dissemination of ignorance, I try to correct it, as Fans of GM need to know what is really going on. It may be over for the US industry. I'm hoping that doesn't happen, but it won't be because I didn't warn people of the impending doom. The only difference between me and others on this site is that I believe that the Big 2.5 are not doing the right thing to avoid disaster....others clearly feel that they are on the right path. Please reread my posts, see what I do for a living and how it depends on GM before you judge my words. I'm not an imprt humper coming over here from VTECnation.com or what ever trying to flame you guys. I care enought to tell you you are mistaken. What you do with the info I provide is completely up to you. I'm truly sorry your Dad's livelihood is threatened by the current uncertainty, however, you've chosen the wrong guy to blame....

1. You obviously don't run a large co.2. Almost everywhere you go in the US, an employee is "at will", meaning 'at the mercy of' his/her employer 3. Union jobs are some of the few exceptions to #2....see how that's worked out in the airlines, steel or auto industries.... 4. I'm not endorsing any behavior. But if you're hired as a TEMP, you have been hired under clear-cut terms. Get over this obsession with what Toyota may or may not be doing. How about GM risking strikes at the Epsilon & Delta plants to get a concession from the Unions to hire non-union workers? If GM does it too, does that make it OK in your mind? Profits = Jobs. Ask any one of the tens of thousands of US auto workers that no longer have one. Go to France and see how well their Social Welfare system is working...you're appealing to base emotions, but have no fact, logic or reasonable correlation to real human behavior to back up your statements. When you own a big co., employ 100's of people and tough decisions need to be made, we'll see what you do. Until then, keep your ill-informed opinions to yourself, as ignorance isn't bliss here.