enzl

As someone here that also has a habit of being on the 'wrong' (i.e. not fawning over GM) side of the issues, I have to strongly second Croc's POV. There have been innumerable times when I've almost decided to just leave this board. And, quite frankly, it had nothing to do with a particular topic or post. Without going into great detail or rehashing old battles, suffice it to say that my opinion about a non-GM topic (and one I felt strongly about) was basically thrown out because of where I stand on GM-related issues--I believe that that type of callous disregard for others has reared it's ugly head in this topic. Bottom line--somebody makes a practical, defensible choice to buy a Toyota, and people here wish them ill? It's disgusting & goes to the core of why this site, IMHO, has gotten more about GM propaganda and less about intelligent discourse. My gut tells me this degradation has led to guys giving up...some you guys couldn't stand with similar opinions to mine, as well as others like FlyBrian, who simply abandoned this place--which, given the time, effort and dedication he had shown to that point, must have meant that leaving simply didn't mean as much to him anymore. That's just sad. I hope better comes out of this thread, but I fear we'll just go back to the party line quickly....thanks for those who would consider my thoughts as a genuine attempt to broaden and improve the general level of discourse here.

You're welcome. Tough crowd.

Children, children. The battle to win back the consideration of the public at large is the single largest hurdle facing all of the Det 2.8. Great product HAS to be in the showroom, not the pipeline...I love the 'Invicta's going to be great, so buy a LaCrosse' theory, except that the only place that'll fly is on this site. Wishing people bad luck because of car choice? Between the hopelessly out-of-touch and the absolute hate, it's no wonder it's difficult to have a healthy debate at C&G.

The 9-3 is a modified Vectra platform, upgraded for Saab..whether introed first or last doesn't matter. The fact remains that Saab hasn't had the growth projected for them --- and GM needs said growth in the entry-lux sector to justify Saab's contiunued existence. What would have a better chance of success? A killer architecture that sweeps awards, blows away buyers and sells at MSRP or giving away weak kneed also rans with $5-8k on the hood? Keep in mind, this isn't just about Saab, its about all of the other products that could be sold as premium products ---again, being late the the CUV party means the product has to be demonstrably better, not just good enough. What will the 9-4 or BRX do that an X3, Q5 or RX can't do already? Diesel, hybrid & car-like handling have all been covered... I haven't driven an EpII, however, in my experience with Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus platform mates, the buyer is merely paying for some interior frills and exterior mods--along with a sterling reputation. GM needs to do better than aping the former & hoping for the latter, eventually. Just my .02

Thanks for the support. I honestly don't mean to offend around here, merely bring some reality to the table--as I see it. Perhaps as a jaded auto person, I'm expecting too little from GM. What the guys here don't understand is that I'd love to be wrong in this case and many others. I just don't get the sense that GM has a grip on the gravity of their situation nor how to pull out of their dive. They're just getting the message that a proper 5 seat lux CUV might be a need for Caddy or Saab? Or that the Lexus ES is a profitable product to try and emulate? 10+ years to bring competitive models to fruition does not inspire my trust or confidence.

You would think...quickly, since the option will be available to almost all trim levels of 'bu, making the Hybrid pointless otherwise.

As a further note to posters obsessed with the platform sharing done by others.... What other makers do is immaterial. GM needs 'Home run' product, ASAP. Emulating others will merely bring them back to competitive with future Saab product. They need spectacular...and between the BRX, BLS, 9-3, 9-5 & 9-4X---along with possible niche entries like 4 dr. coupes, SAV's et al, I would argue a singular 'premium' FWD/AWD (think current Audi B4) platform might make perfect sense. It could underpin Buick's future stuff, be built across the globe & sold in ANY country. Or just follow the horde...that's how GM is going to leapfrog the competition & replace revenues from big trucks

VW had been overtaken by GM a short time ago, so I don't see it as a surprise that they are going to swap positions every once in a while. I only see this as evidence that GM may not have as firm a grip on markets outside of the US as some posters have been convinced of in the recent past, making it much more mission critical that they fix the home offices issues. Perhaps more drastic measures need to be taken? Just my .02.

If they didn't blame the Unions, the management of the Big 2.8 might actually have to blame themselves! (When's the last time one of these guys took responsibility for their inability to plan for market corrections? Never.) The Union issues are just one of the many problems each company has as they lurch into the 21st century with overcapacity in the US and uncertainty abroad. GM has consistently displayed an uncanny knack for half-steps, when giant leaps are needed. Mark my words, another round of drastic downsizing will take place at GM within the next 18 months--the erosion of the large truck market nearly guarantees it.

EpII will grace everything from a $20K 'bu or Aura to a $40K+ Saab...I haven't been impressed by GM's previous silk purse from a sow's ear efforts for Saab--that's all. As for the spirited defense of the Theta/Ep CUV's, well, let's just say that there's every reason to think the 9-4 & BRX will be mere upgrades of the future 'nox, not truly unique architectures. I'm willing to bet you'll have similar dimensions and fairly similar powertrains--just peep out the spy photos floating around. More evidence that the divisional needs are eating GM's young, IMO.

All is really has to do is sell at a dramatically higher transaction price than the LaCrosse. That shouldn't be too difficult. Gotta believe $28-32 is a sweet spot for this car...just higher than the 'Bu--with a goal of 75k, it should be uplevel trim--TSX/ES killer at a discount. If They can't do that, it doesn't make sense to even try--the G6, Aura & 'bu could sell in this space with SE models...

LG. Have a 37" I dropped $1200 on 18 months ago. Great--happy I saved $1k not getting the 1080, too. The phones are good too, in my experience.

Ford has had a leg up in the mid-sector for quite sometime in the handling department, both in Europe and the US. The Fusion is simply a better ride than the Epsilons here, and it's my understanding that the Mondeo is a class leading FWD car. I haven't spent any seat time in the Vectra, but my time in a 9-3T was disappointing. Remember, most high-performance variants of this chassis in the US will be Saabs, not Saturns---and Saab needs EpII to be great, not decent. The Vectra VXR is tiny fraction of Vectra sales, whereas Saab is going to try and peddle 2/3 of its production here in the states as an EpII eventually--more, if you consider the 9-4X a derivative of the Eps.

I've got enough drama with one wife and one kid--I think 2 or more would put me in an early grave. I feel for these women & children--another awful example of the perversion, misuse & abuse of God by those claiming to be Holy.

I forgot about the dreadful GM stock photography when I judged this product. It may look better in person, but I just don't see how this will be nearly as good looking as the concept. I'm getting another 'over-promise, under-deliver' feeling about this one. Hopefully, it'll handle better that its predecessors, which were/are mediocre, regardless of specific model.

Wow. A $40K+ EpII is what we've waiting 10+ years for? Just sell it to the Chinese already. Another 1 step forward, 2 back for the General. Just when the 'bu and CTS give me hope, they dish out some 'premium' rehashes of $20K products--just like the BRX & 9-4X will be. They make it so hard to be a fan.

With all due respect to the above posters, the DW series has alot of great nuggets buried in a bunch of hyperbole. There's actually much to be learned by observing and understanding your enemy...(Sun Tzu, baby) Plus, if anyone actually reads the paper, they should be aware that the American Axle strike is about to create 2 big problems for GM: 1. Almost complete shutdown of production due to a lack of parts, and; 2. Another Delphi-type payoff by GM to AA's Union employees. Should be an interesting 2nd Q for everyone in the biz.

PCS- If this is what GME is going to bring to the table, let's let GMDAT design more stuff. Opel has consistently shown that its' head in firmly ensconced in its a$$ when it comes to D-segment & lux product. It's one of the reasons why Saab is such a money pit as well, unfortunately, so both parties are dragged into the mire. I might not want to own an Alfa, but your credibility is Zero if the Alfa is barf-worthy in your eyes. It's clearly one of the prettiest sedans on the market--and ironically, runs on the bones of old GM/Fiat ties.

It's 'OK' in a segment that requires more than that to truly succeed (i.e. get sold beyond company cars.) GME is in trouble with this one. Ford did the Mondeo right (& especially its Galaxy/S-Max mates). Anyone know if our version (Aura) will have the LWB? I believe the proportions would work better with more wheelbase.

100% correct. If money is an issue, a new vehicle purchase means you've thrown away 20% of purchase price when that vehicle is registered as yours. With the CPO warranties and APR specials, you're sure to save $5k minimum at the pricepoints you're talking about.. Just my .02.

I can see why they sell tons of these....efficient, inoffensive & well built, it's no wonder it's a default choice of many shoppers. That being said, it has the WORST front seating on the planet. I could not own or recommend this car for this reason alone. It feels like the seats were designed for Steven Hawking--they force my (average) body up & forward while seated in a position where I can comfortably operate the wheel and pedals. The steering wheel also has a weird angle to it that increases the discomfort. I wonder how many users are either significantly smaller than me (less than 5'9") or simply take a very short test drive before purchase?

The CRV is the best selling CUV on the market, so the answer is no. This beast will have trouble matching it's predecessor's sales.

Wow. That's ugly! Unlike the CRV or Civic, I predict tougher going for this thing. Isuzu Trooper meets Beenie Baby is not the direction Honda should be going, IMHO. I love Honda's engineering driven culture and their 4 cylinder engines are the best on the planet. This thing is just different for the sake of being different.

The Enclave is a separate category of goodness...it's a CrossOver (so the market is hot) & it's a superior product (space/economy/styling). My concern revolves around whether a FWD ES competitor is something that the public is clamoring for from Buick. That doesn't mean it won't be a good product, just not the great product that Buick needs to become relevant again. A large Park Ave (think Commodore) RWD sedan or a Riv coupe (to partner off the Camaro assempbly line) make more sense to me, if volume is no longer a huge concern with the GMC-P-B channels. They would also command higher prices, solidify Zeta in the product program mix & could be built in NA and exported internationally, giving GM the benefit of the weak $. They would also be 'premium', rather than a Lexus-like permutation of EpII.

The only thing that concerns me about this car is that it may not move the needle far enough. I'm going to give GM the benefit of the doubt and concede that the looks and quality will be another generational leap beyond the 'bu. That being said, does this model satisfy a marketplace need as an ES competitor that isn't being met? GM alone has a dozen products in this space of the market (middle market FWD sedans) from its varied brands. To me, AWD, in-car entertainment packages, hybrid or diesel availability would all set this car apart....does anyone know what this car's USP will be? I just get the feeling that the Koreans, Japanese and, to a lesser degree, the Germans all occupy the slots that Buick buyers used to gravitate. I hope it's more than a nice product. Our neighboring GMC-B-P store could use the traffic. The 1st G8 that came in a few weeks ago is still sitting on their front porch. Interestingly, our local Caddy-Saab-Hummer place had its best sales month in decades last month--so it isn't just the local economy.