enzl

I think management & labor share this turkey equally. The UAW Local is flexing its muscle, perhaps inappropriately, but many locals felt the national leadership sold them out... But you have to also ask the GM management how controlling these 'back-door' work actions weren't negotiated into the landmark labor agreement they struck?

And the sound you hear is the other shoe dropping. Again, I beg of you--how can this management team be allowed to continue? You receive a record setting break from the Union in wages, benefits and buy-outs...then you leave a Peterbuilt-sized hole in the agreement by allowing the Locals to separately negotiate rules and other details. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

The decline of the US$ actually means the Astra is a LESS profitable item to bring to the states from EU countries--that's where flex-manufacturing (& a closer alignment of Opel/Chevy/Saturn Deltas) would have paid dividends. It could be argued that the GMDAT work got in the way of aligning first-world product development. I'll take that bet regarding the Aveo...the Fit will own it 2 years into its lifespan, no doubt. The Corsa should be here, not the GMDAT products--but that's another story. I'm not giving GM until the next gen of anything, anymore--they've exhausted their supply of Goodwill...they've got to replace truck revenue with high-profit cars and CUVs and with their indecision with Zeta, bigger than CTS Caddys, Alphas & Saab, I believe they're screwed without perfect product rollouts...

Actually, aren't we borrowing theirs? ..and then turning around and buying their stuff with it?

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...341/1363/AUTO04

The last part of your post is the reason I think it has a chance of being true...re-upping N* or adjusting the vette block for certain applications may simply not make sense...better to build (plenty of room in GM plants) & buy some of your production run from BMW, rather than developing or furthering a dead end in GM's family tree. Or it could simply have to do with the BMW V8 being developed with the two-mode RWD car application, thus allowing quick Caddy hybrids where the pricing isn't as much of an issue & getting a sweet BMW V8.

Supposedly it is. The inline 6 doesn't make sense on a whole bunch of levels...I could see alot of good coming from upgrading to the 5l BMW V8 in current North* applications.

The Aveo is on par with the Kia/Hyundai entries--maybe. Is that what billions invested in Daewoo gets? I'm in a Corolla right now---supplied & paid for by my workplace--and as with the dozens of vehicles I drive each year, I could care less what car I'm seen in, as it's not mine. Period. I do, however, know a good car/truck when I see it. The Aveo ain't close--not even arguable, I'm afraid. The Fit is so far ahead in fuel economy, residual value, quality, design & utility that it's not even a debate. A Fit will be worth something in 3 years---the Aveo will be lucky to be worth 40%--so any initial savings are completely wiped away. I give RW NO credit for anything--GM's near fatal case of ADD can be found in many of their foreign entanglements, most of which have faired poorly. For each Daewoo, there's a Fiat, Subaru, or Saab travesty to remind me that RW got lucky--period. Until Daewoo produces something competitive of merit in any category, they're just a dime-store Kia imitation---and leaning on them for any small vehicle when the Corsa has been competitive for years in Europe is the height of needless duplication. GM is capable of leapfrogging Toyota or Honda or anyone else in ANY category--their problem is that things are SO dysfunctional at the Tubes, they're unable to do so. That's what needs to change, ASAP.

Without revealing to much, the statistics support my POV, but your explanation has some merit. If you check the Avg. Transaction price/unit, you'll see that consumers are (gladly) forking over $1250-3000 more for B & C segment cars that are popular--but that's simple Adam Smith economics at play. Honda & Toyota both squeeze franchises tighly on margins, spiffs and stair-step stuff--adding in educated consumers and that most good import stores must do volume to survive & you've got a full picture. The harsh truth is that in the switch to cars, GM simply has few default choices. The 'Bu, Aura & Astra are the only GM car products (other than CTS/G8--which is a different category) that I could wholeheartedly recommend--and how many happy Toyota, Nissan or Honda buyers are their to tell Sam & Suzie SUV how great their cars are, regardless? It's an uphill climb for the Det3.

Here's an explanation for low grosses at toyota or honda stores... The buyers are simply more informed (and smarter and richer, if you believe the marketing research), they've researched the snot out of the product they are buying and simply cannot be bamboozled 'in the box.' I'm certainly not saying all Det3 buyers are dolts, just as an overall group some imports have a better informed clientele. And 'Biz...your credibility is weakened by your Aveo comments--well screwed together? Absolutely. As good as it's competition? No way. It's not efficient & not fun--so it is trumped by an equally mediocre Yaris and the Fit runs circles around it. I'd sooner buy used.

Then I guess we'll see. If current management isn't responsible for the mess, who is? Based on the success rate at Saturn, 2/3rds of Buick being a joke, 2 real Pontiacs, & the death of the large truck market, along with macro forces they have NO control over...well, let's just say that I sincerely hope you're right. How could it have been allowed to get to this?

I was off by 1% point...GM was almost down TWICE the market average (although I haven't seen total figures). I stand by my statement, regardless. ADR was only 50% WORSE than market average!--I guess you've got me. Again, parsing words for feeble victories...you'd have a bright future in GM's exec suites. As I stated above, if you're losing sales at more than the rate of the next company, you're not holding marketshare & therefore, failing. As to the rest of your 'defense'--the 'bu is up...how about the other nameplates they're trying to foist on a market that simply won't have it? They have, what, 60+ products--and they're not all big trucks, my friend. Nice cherry pick. I'm going to beat this dead horse for some time...exactly how long depends upon when RW, Fritz and the rest of the gang gets to pull their golden parachutes. It's disgusting, embarassing and just flat out incompetence at its highest levels. Sadly, everyone here knows this already. Why doesn't GM's Board of Directors?

IIRC, last figures had Toyota piling on RECORD incentives, on average...which were LESS than half of the big 2.8's AVG. incentives. As for GM's vaunted quality gains, there were 500k+ GM products recalled in the last 2 weeks, according to Automotive News.

Was the market as a whole down 23%? It's all in the numbers, brother. Simple math. Market goes down X% and you're off more than that, you lose. Toyota, Hyundai & Mazda are all claiming monthly increases (whether ADR or not, I don't know)...and I haven't seen the broader market figures yet either. I'll bet everything I have that the overall market is down by 1/2 of GM's decline. Just so I know, is the 'unforeseeable' decline in the large truck market going to be GM's excuse du jour? GM's executive monkeys JUST downgraded their annual overall US sales to 'just below 16 million.'--everyone else has been talking about the mid 15's or lower since December. And, yes, there IS something you can do about the Truck slide--make great cars! Or are the GM execs also not able to keep up with current (or not so current) events like Katrina, war in the Middle East, the rise of demand for the BRIC countries for petroleum? Absurdity at its highest levels--let's give these guys a raise!...oops, too late. Please. You're sounding like a battered wife making excuses for her abusive spouse.

All sadly true. April's sales figures lead me to the conclusion that they're losing the battle in Indy, Detroit and Cleveland too. There's simply no GM car product that is a default choice for those abandoning Trucks.

Where are the ready-made excuses? Has GM management failed to get the monthly checks to C&G's faithful? Another awful, embarassing performance by the formerly greatest company on the planet. RW has to be on borrowed time now, no?

Sale of Jag/LR this month, so it'll be a 2Q event. Problem with GM 1 time write-downs and events is that they've become a regular part of business. GM has also sold off about $10 billion in stuff in the past year (GMAC, Allison), so it's difficult to say where they'd be without those 'events'. It's going to be an interesting year, to say the least.

Agreed...but it appears that the personal stuff generally happens because the poster(s) don't tow the party line here...but a little civility could go a long way to making the discourse better, regardless of POV.

It looks good. They haven't spoiled the proportions of the concept outside, either. Does anyone know what the functional differences between the BRX & the thetas ('nox/terrain) will be? My understanding is that the BRX/9-4 will be a combo of epII & theta--but what does that really mean?--they look to have similar proportions and overall size.

Plus, you've got to live with a C/C daily. I'm sorry--they're objectively and subjectively poor. There isn't a figure or stat you could quote me to subject myself or someone I know to one of these trucks. Listen, if you want to sell me on the idea that a 'bu is a better choice than Camry--I'm with you. But people here trying to tell me that the C/C's are decent is laughable--I could even live with a Cobalt over a Corolla--but GM's prior product development issues could be summed up by simply openning the doors on the C/C's. When I see these trucks, they just piss me off--we stock very few of them...we go months without an inquiry about them. They are old GM-think that simply cannot be repeated with new products.

First, your personal choices are admirable...but they're yours, not a conclusive look at the business at large, nor are they typical. I can only assume that your defense of the Colorado/Canyon makes my point for me as to your bias--they were, are and will be mediocre product---only the other mediocrity in the segment keeps them remotely in the ballpark--I get in one and I think an entire vehicle development team should be shot...the fact they had 20 years to think about it makes it more embarassing! If we're playing that game, I'll give you a few anecdotes from MY time in the biz (6 years+): 1. More that one-third of my Chevy customers REFUSE to consider another Chevy. 2. Our Toyota Store, in a worse area, both economically & logistically, has shown 15%+ growth NEW sales, every year for 6 years, despite management strife and turnover. 3. Most of my friends come to me for advice about new vehicle purchases...probably 50 or so since my current job...I give them honest opinions, and I have recommended many many Domestic vehicles--NOT ONE of these middle class or better individuals would take my advice--ALL imports, period. So, while I'm genuinely impressed with your stand...it means nothing to the larger picture. And, just to clarify, I would prefer Toyota's overall position as a competitor, not just its large trucks--I would avoid any company depending upon large trucks for profitability--Toyota simply could shut down both US plants, take a tax writedown and still go on making BIllions.

No anecdotes, please. Fearless prediction: Toyota will survive and prosper even with 'frontrunner' backlash. As stated earlier--they've run GM out of the other truck biz' and the large truck nightmare has only begun for all parties. All of you would select Toyota's competitive position if it was your business. GM is in real trouble with the softness in critical sectors. Sour grapes, coulda-shoulda-woulda & bitter hopes that someone else needs to fail is simply not a business plan. Not with a competitor as relentless as Toyota. Again, the denial or need to parse words just to pull a positive out of a true disaster is incredible. Biz, I know you're a smart person--but you've got to take a real, careful look at what is really going on...this is nothing short of a catastrophe with a perfect storm of economic issues that may drive GM to the literal brink--Union issues, borrowing costs, mortgage exposures, housing woes--I mean, even I couldn't make up a worse case scenario.

Toyota's truck situation is, even at worst case scenario, a small drain of a huge bucket of cash. GM hasn't made a profit in 25 years without large trucks. Who's in worse shape because of trucks? It's not even a horse race, man. Toyota will have a proportionate share of a smaller market--one that it has increased its presence in from Zero 25 years ago to 10% today. How is this some catastrophic failure? Every business has under-performing divisions or parts--has anyone here read a business page before? I'm just shocked. Technically, large trucks aren't good anywhere. Ask Ford---scratch that, Ford figured out how to make a profit last Q--and GM's too busy................ giving RW a raise! And, if the Tacoma survives the rust-thru debacle or not, it has effectively slaughtered the pathetic Colorado/Canyon twins & the Sienna pushed GM out of the minivan market entirely. My guess is GM could use another 350k or so of high transaction price volume right now, no? C'mon. This argument doesn't pass the smell test, man.

Wishful thinking, my friend. They have exactly 1 plant that is operating truly under-capacity. GM has every plant but 1 or 2 operating that way. Frightening times. I'd love to know where you guys hide from outside information. It might be useful when I vacation...

Sorry for creating confusion--the 9-3 is on Epsilon--a modified/upgraded version of the architecture that underpined the Vectra (and 'bu/G6 et al.) at the time of this gen's intro. I don't know if Saab is limited by dealer count--they've sold 30k+/yr. cars in the past without GM (1986 was the high water mark, IIRC). Saab is limited by product and their presence at the bottom of nearly every measure of quality, other than IIHS ratings. Until or unless the elves in Sweden can screw the cars together properly, I'm not sure that even a ground-breaking product could get much traction...putting out some nice EpII's means we're getting less than groundbreaking, so their chances for success are also reduced dramatically.