enzl

And I thought the media was biased! No wonder I'm the enemy here--you guys are now assigning qualities to what people drive that are simply manifestations of your own irrational hatred. You've never been cut off by an American SUV with its driver on the cell phone? Please. Just when I thought this site had come to it senses, a thread like this one pops up and devalues every legitimate point you posters actually make. The saddest part is you simply don't see it.

More objective, unbiased observations from the peanut gallery! I've never seen a geriatric zombie in a Buick 68, be careful--the backbone of Buick's entire clientele have one foot in the grave.

Wow. I 100% agree. I think an Astra Twintop, a Holden Sportwagon or Corsa VXR would make fantastic, unique and sporty Pontiacs that have no internal competition.

Again, you've let your passion outweigh reality. I'll answer your current inaccuracies: 1. 10-15 yrs ago, Toyota's cars were better than GM's--by a wide margin. Please check out a Camry from 92 and tell me you'd rather have a GM-10..please. 2. I'm on the floor everyday--I deal with problem customers, intransigent banks and service issues--an average of 5x/day...more than most salesman, certainly more than the guy that owns a majority stake in my place. 3.Where do you think the $ comes from for credits, subvented leasing & 0% financing? It costs more for GM to borrow money than you & I. If the customer isn't overpaying, than GM is merely shifting the transactional costs down the road--so either customer A overpays for a mediocre product that isn't worth sh!t within 3 years or customer B returns leased vehicle and GM takes a $2-3k hit because the residual they set was so far out of whack...that's good business! 4. How many times must it be said that relying on Toyota to falter is absurd---and its more 'negative' than I could ever be--basically, you guys are admitting GM can't catch up, so they need their competitors to crumble--How negative is that? As far as my pessimism...if you were in a theater that was on fire, wouldn't you want someone yelling 'Fire'? I have stated before, I will give full credit when its due...and I''ve had many nice things to say about some of GM's latest efforts product-wise. But please don't insist I drink the Kool-Aid when it comes to GM's gigantic problems and this management team's inability to react or plan for these contingencies. My kids would like jobs in the future--that's why I've worked real hard to be sure they'll have something...perhaps not an auto job, but something. They are the reason I get up in the morning--and the reason I rail against what GM is doing to other people's children by f'ing up their future.

I'll vote for unique and good, rather than wade into the RWD/FWD issue. Just make 'em interesting, sporty & good looking. More hardtop 'verts, less G5's for instance. Even if it hurts, Pontiac's shouldn't be at the local rent-a-car joint as an anonymous 4 dr. unit... Import Daewoos to fill rental counters...it's their highest purpose in life anyway.

As usual, you've completely missed the point..although I've got to admit, I'm amused. My objection to 'Biz is the inherent inaccuracy in his position. But, the price of being right here without being on the proper 'side' is ridicule. GM is circling the toilet, my friends, whether you see it or not. Pulling out of the nose dive is going to require alot of heavy lifting down at the tubes. I simply don't see the level of action that's required--clearly Balthazar, Biz and others see it differently.

I'm going to politely disagree with OC about VW and its dopplegangers Seat & Skoda. The product is not as well differentiated as it should be. That's how VW (with help from Saxony) fell into Porsche's hands. I've always believed that Skoda is what VW should be--and Seat is just loser, with no real USP amongst it's family.

Your 'reality' is fantasy--and as for your 'leasing' suggestion--that only helps an individual consumer for a few years (if you can call being trapped in a Cobalt for 3 years 'help'). What happens to GM when the falsely inflated residuals set for that Cobalt are thousands too high upon return? Right, GM takes another $2k loss when they auction it off. Just admit it: Previous indifference to product has hurt GM---and the current product reawakening may not be soon enough or profitable enough to save their asses. Period. This is why Pontiac, a division that sells 350k+ units/yr., is being discussed for euthanasia in this thread--GM simply can't afford to revamp or replace a limited line-up fast enough. 'Biz-It's going to be tough to work at a Chevy dealership when GM hits Chapter 11...so maybe you should know and understand the reality of the siutation, not the 'truth' you'd like to hear. Toyota isn't evil--the evil is the lazy, disrespectful and negligent way GM has treated customers, employees and their own shareholders -- for me, the betrayal of a loved one is much more upsetting...the world is a big place, brother--nothing impacts only North America anymore---and the jobs are coming from Toyota, Honda, et al...not GM anymore--they're paying people to leave!

Successfully evading the huge hole in your logic: Most b/c class customers don't lease...and, many 1st time buyers grow out of their purchase within a few years. A few hundred in maintenance costs doesn't bridge a $2-4k resale advantage for a Civic or Corolla customer. And most people would gladly pay .50-$1/day not to drive a Cobalt. Wishing Toyota bad doesn't make GM better--but, that logic also doesn't exist in the Great White North either, apparently. Keep hoping they slip like GM has...there's ample evidence their careful march to the top (Toyota's have outsold Chevy & Ford in the US so far this year) has been sloppy & lucky.

Longtooth- I have no dog in your fight, however, I'd like to know more about how the membership feels about VEBA and the fact that Union leadership will be sitting on that jar of pennies? Other than that--it's a no win situation, and I'm not 'walking a mile' in either party's shoes...

They don't. He was being facetious. And, I'm sure you know plenty...they're the smart ones who didn't take a $5,000 haircut buying one new...which was exactly my point... Just so I'm not all bad news: The new, focused Pontiac discussed above is spot on. There's nothing wrong with today's Pontiac that can't be fixed with greater focus. There's simply no need to place 2 full-line marques in one showroom already packed with trucks.

Again, selective fact disclosure: If the fleeted G6's were scrapped, at least all of the Retail Customers (you know them, the one's who shelled out their hard-earned dough) wouldn't be taking another 10% hit on their trade value in the first year of ownership. And, then, what happens? Those fleeted cars also become NEW car competition when re-released on dealer yards after fleet use, so GM competes with itself! (and why not, with the divisional structure already around their neck, huh? GM has used the fleets to prop up unsaleable product, to keep union guys busy & to indirectly screw 'regular' customers for a long time. Sheer genius 'Biz! Resale Value is good old Adam Smith talking....and the sad thing is, you know that, yet you still choose to buy the party line. Whether Toyota resale is justified or not isn't the issue---how about worrying about GM's resale values, why they suck and how those 40 ex-rentals help YOU as a salesman, not GM? If half the energy here went to helpful suggestions, you guys could probably help turn GM around. Instead, its incessant whining about how Toyota's stealing your lunch. 'Biz, at least have the courtesy to tell guys here you're just shooting from the hip with these misleading statements--most of the guys here don't work in the biz and take your 'info' as fact.

Actually, the math that matters is GM's %, not Toyota's raw numbers. GM's fleet rate is somewhere north of 25%---Toyota or any other competitor taking advantage of GM's slow withdrawal (along w/Ford and Chrysler) from fleet fire sales is just common sense, whereas you're trying to paint it in a far more negative light. I work with lots of these co.'s regularly, so I'm confident when I state that Kia or Hyundai's foray into fleet hell is much more of an issue than Toyota's. And, newsflash: Things are dire at GM. Part of the problem is you (nor they) seem to fully realize that. If anything I said were untrue, you (& almost everyone else) would be happy to point it out.

1 of every 50 Camry's sold....vs. 1 in 5 or worse? C'mon man. Fact: We met with Toyota Fleet last week...they're far from turning over every rock...they are restricted by corporate in scope and number of bids they make. You're living in a dream-world if you're going to hang your hat on the numbers you're trying to twist.

Not to dampen the enthusiasm, but it's exactly these type of press pieces that get destroyed on this board when they're Toyota's...I'll take everyone's positive reaction as a sign there will no longer be that double standard? "bu is great, no doubt. If GM can keep the ship afloat, produce new equally good product & keep up with the cadence necessary to keep product fresh, they may actually come back...

The 9-3 as used CPO makes sense...save $10-15k easy. A new one? You might as well light your wallet on fire. If the Delta rumor is true, it means that GM is even further behind in replacing the 9-3...not good. The 9-4X has to save this brand in the states...current sales figures are now below Jag on a monthly basis!

Not disputing your theory, I just don't think it explains or excuses the incompetence we're currently witnessing. All you've got to do is look at the sales figures & realize GM hasn't made a dime producing passenger cars in the US market for about 20 years or so. There's nothing that indicates to me that streak is about to be broken... Just in case you haven't heard the news: Toyota is currently the leader in marketshare as a nameplate & GM has produced 30% less vehicles to date in NA this year. Frightening doesn't adequately describe the situation.

2 errors in your assessment: 1. It is perfectly rational to purchase a product that is as good or better than the competition---seaweed clothing & energy drinks don't equal a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry-established, middle of the road products---so your point is valid, but not applicable to this situation. There's no 'contrary' facts...The Malibu may be as good as the Camry, but there's no 'facts' that point to the Camry being a bad purchase decision. 2. Toyota (your example, not mine) is only doing what GM did for years with Chevy/Pontiac/Buick/Olds/Caddy...so, if it worked for GM in the past, so why shouldn't Toyota follow that example? Furthermore, your position supports the idea that Toyota is beating GM at marketing, as well as product relevance---so, are you defending GM or admitting that they've dropped the ball completely? With all due respect, GM has dug a hole of its own making. Now, common sense would dictate that they stop digging. Obviously, they haven't and it may doom them to a date with a bankruptcy judge. Any MIT eggheads writing a book that GM can use to get out of their hole? I'll be happy to order it on Amazon and send it to RW, ASAP.

Your entire supposition is dependent upon GM's current fiscal health being better than the press is stating (it's probably worse, as the $30Billion writedown last Q was an admission of exactly that.) So, there's no money to retrench or retool or reequip the troops, so to speak. What you're proposing is parallel to sending US troops into battle with broomsticks because the Gov't can't afford to buy enough supplies--why would a good 'General' do that? Second, and almost as important. There's noone to blame but GM for the mess. Blaming others is a uniquely American fetish--The press and Wall Street would gladly pick on whomever was in this predicament. Unfortunately, GM half-assed its way through decades of product---and, now that the product is demonstrably better, the competition has sunk their claws into ex-GM customers and isn't letting go. Explain to me why I (or anyone) should gamble on GM when I've got a sure thing in my driveway? Especially with the 2nd largest investment I'm going to make? Or put my child or wife in? It's just simply against human nature itself to ask people to do so. You continually make excuses, I'd like things to be made better. That's the essential difference in our positions. I suspect much of it has to do simply with life experience, but I'm not sure you realize how real-world adults make decisions--to believe that something in the newspaper or TV makes people zombies that run down to the local Toyota dealer is laughable--more likely, humans are risk-averse--and it simply makes little sense to purchase most of what GM offers.

G6 is a rental queen--and the only FWD sedan available now at Pontiac dealers...the Bonnie and GP are long gone--so, yes I'm aware of the 'select' figures you're quoting and, no, it doesn't matter as the G6 pales in comparison to Aura or 'bu. The rest of your proposal assumes GM can afford to retool Pontiac, which they can't. Look at their product cadence...they're on 5 yr. + cycles with the nameplates they're trying to support...and most of them suck, so what's the point? If you'd like to see Pontiac or Saab or Hummer drag GM into Ch.11, be my guest.

FOG- Have you been reading the monthly sales reports? Are you aware of the avg. sales/dealer at Pontiac? Is the Torrent, G6, G5 or even Solstice something that you can get from another GM division? Have you seen the Q1 financial results? GM is operating without any room for error. GM does not have the $ to support its divisional structure, period. The reason that this drumbeat has gone on for years is because the pundits are right. GM is sinking under the weight of its own largess, and the ostriches continue to bury their heads in the sand. You can accuse the press of jumping on GM, but I believe its completely justified--they are running the worlds' greatest corporation into the ground. A company with such a historic headstart that their loss of leadership in the industry is nothing short of tragic. Sometimes, you've got to admit your were wrong before things can be made right. GM's management has been using scalpels when they've needed to use axes. RW is simply the wrong man for the job. The sooner somebody owns up to the mess, the sooner the clean-up begins. Here's the larger question: What is sitting at your local Pontiac store that couldn't either be killed or given to another division without missing a beat? The answer is nothing! The G8 could be a Chevy or Buick, the G8 ST should be a Chevy or GMC, the G6, G5, Torrent & Solstice are represented elsewhere (& better, I might add.) Your passion is obvious, but you've got to take off the blinders, man. This is life or death.

He loves it... http://www.latimes.com/classified/automoti...0,7606964.story

Basically, National Contract is set by the UAW at large, the local Unions have a say on the specifics of shop-rules at their plant and other immediate issues concerning their membership uniquely. These 'set asides' are exactly that, the local specifics are left to post-national negotiations. In other words, GM mgmt. left the door open for the 'crazies' to monkey-wrench the entire company. Please note that Ford & Chrysler are not similarly afflicted, so someone at GM's negotiating team screwed up. My understanding of the situation is that there are elements within the Fairfax (& other) plants that felt they were bamboozled by National and that these strikes are 'payback'---but these are rumors, not facts, and I haven't studied the grievances that closely, so I'm not sure if there are legitimate reasons... Here's the local's website with its list of issues... http://uawlocal31.org/ feel free to cast your vote with them!

The Locals can do what they like...there are rumors of some chicanery regarding the more radical plants' votes (keep in mind that Union Leadership get to sit on the multi-Billion $ VEBA and milk it for all it's worth, so their interest is vastly different from the guy on the line.) MORE IMPORTANTLY GM should have anticipated the backlash and contracted against it--the strike threat was a joke and everyone knew it--instead, we have yet another example of how poorly GM management functions. The one hot product in a volume segment and they're blowing it!

The 'bu is made elsewhere (Lake Orion, MI), but they were having trouble keeping up with demand before this happened...This strike action is partially because the 'bu is built there.