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It's a tragedy for our country, no doubt. For people dependant upon GM, its even worse. I cannot understand the patience that GM's Board has shown with this management team. I am disgusted by the negligence involved and constantly amazed at the depths they've allowed things to fall. I've noticed that C&G has gotten quieter lately...perhaps its a collective depression over the constant bad news? I know it's been affecting things at our dealerships...

Because, with a war raging in the Middle East and the BRIC countries consuming like never before, you would have to be an oracle with a vision of the future to predict $4 gas? Nobody at GM have the time to take a look at a competitor's showroom before 2002? Anybody in accounting bother to tell RW that only big trucks have been profitable in NA? Any MBA/CPA's at the tubes catch the class about diversifying portfolios? This is a bed of GM's making--the macro forces are only hastening the natural result of a rudderless ship. I have no confidence that this exec. management team has the skill set neessary to weather this crisis. Other than Lutz, there's noone with a right to keep their jobs.

You are correct, except that this outcome is the natural result of GM's mistakes, missteps and inability to alter their institutional processes and procedures. I'll avoid the "I told you so's", but this has been a long time coming....I think a few of you owe a couple of posters a little credit where it's due. The good news is that the fog has finally lifted and GM's executive management have finally acknowleged what needs to be done. The bad news is this executive management team probably aren't equipped to do it correctly. I can't see RW lasting the calendar year.

Umm...personal anecdotes aside... I'd like to see the links to reputable sources (other than the "magazine or two") that you are relying on for information. I haven't read ANYTHING that consistently declares the domestics as equals for the past 20+ years. Not ONE. I realize this is a GM fanboard, but can we avoid straight-up falsehoods? Please. It would make other assertions made here a little more believable if you just didn't completely fabricate this stuff. PS- AS an important footnote...GM themselves disagree with your statement. About 2 yrs ago (IIRC) they published a Full page Ad Apologizing for their Sh!t vehicles of the past 2 decades...

Saturn's problem (unlike a couple of other divisions) isn't product. There's a disconnect between what Saturn buyers expected and what is being offered in showrooms. To me, the numbers simply break down as Ion volume dissappearing. The S-series & Ion were designated introductory Saturns. Now you've got an Astra, which is good, but expensive & not marketed as a volume product---right in the segment that defined Saturn. The Saturn experiment is a microcosm for what ails the General. Inattention, inappropriate expectation, this division has been on a manic ride, at GM's behest, for years. The result is disappointing, but unsurprising to any more than the casual observer. Too bad the Spring Hill plant couldn't have been sold off with the Ion assembly line intact. That would have made more sense for GM...think of a Pontiac showroom with the Astra & Chevy with a Lambda or mini-vette & Buick with small CUV in a burgeoning mid-lux segment. Those changes alone may have added 200k in sales (easy) without the needless expense of distributing/marketing/advertising/supervising Saturn. Just my .02.

Bad. It'll look real bad. The Union will be forced back to the table. The monies not already contributed to VEBA will be in doubt. The publicity will drive sales dramatically lower...oh, and RW, Mullaly and the rest will float comfortably away with their Golden Parachutes. It'll be Delphi, without a rich patron like GM to help with the bailout. Michigan will see its unemployment rate jump a few points and the politicians will kick and scream and still do nothing. The only persons to benfit will be the lawyers and CPAs that descend on the carcasses of these once proud companies. As for the workers: ask the US steel workers how their retirements are going. Its an unmitigated disaster for all except the people in charge of these co.'s today. (And the surviving manufacturers who will be given marketshare on a silver platter.)

If you shop at K-mart/Wallmart et al..., purchase D3 products (the Equinox's entire engine is made in China) or wear clothes made in this decade, you're contributing to the problem as well. Simply put, this is a huge problem for all companies, Toyota is a target because of their status, as top dog, that's going to happen.

Ask the 100k+ workers canned/laid off in the last few years if the D3 have treated them better than Toyota?...Unionization has contributed more to worker safety than GM or any other manufacturer ever has. The best treated workers are the ones that'll have jobs in 5 years... The issue of human rights, workers conditions/treatment & manufacturing concerns is a global issue, with almost every multinational having some supplier, direct subsidiary or related entity geting entangled in 3rd world abuse stories. The only reason this made headlines is because Toyota is involved, but its simply a natural part of the global economy nowadays. I have to laugh that the knee jerk reaction here is that Toyota is more guilty than the next company. They all could care less until they get caught. Period.

My personal opinion of the Aveo (and that's all it is) is low. The fact that CR hated it doesn't hold a tremendous amount of value to me, but it certainly supports my view... Here's my concern. The Aveo is the car that Chevy is introducing itself with. To people who can't afford anything else, as well as returnees looking for a Chevy car. Is it a compelling enough package to keep these clientele?, and more importantly, is 1-4 years in this (penalty) box going to turn them off to the greatly improved GM products available both now and in the future? If the EU Corsa didn't exist, and the Aveo was simply a stopgap (like the Astra), I'd be OK with it. Instead, we have a vehicle that doesn't 'surprise and delight', it's simply 'there'. An opportunity lost, IMO. It's old GM-think at its worst, again, IMO.

I'm not denigrating the man...I just don't look at GME's accomplishments as particularly impressive. Under your theory, his success is dwarfed by Fiat's new management---they took an independant, smaller company and revitalized it while knocking on death's door--plus, their expertise in making a buck with small cars is EXACTLY what GM needs right now. I have no doubt that CPF is a good guy and knows what good product is (although one of my immediate concerns is that Opel's product has been on the good side of average rather than excellent and Saab's non-existant). My fear is that (again) GM is reaching into it's ranks and pulling someone up who has the right connections (as you readily admit, he's well liked) rather than someone with a true vision of how GM will survive into this century. Also, I don't put much credence into the Russia thing. Ford is also kicking ass there---and they've been FUBAR for years without direction. The BRIC countries are growing and becoming richer, thus an automotive market that never existed before will exhibit strong growth for early entries, followed by the inevitable plateau once the world's player's all start to truly compete there. None of my objections are set in stone, but I personally believe that GM needs to think very far outside the box when the inevitable happens and RW is forced to fall on his sword--this next leadership has to be perfect in execution--and someone steeped in the miasma that is GM's beauracracy isn't my idea of an ideal pick.

Then a polite series of foll-ups: Why? What has CPF done to justify said appointment? (If that justification is GME's break-even status, is that such an accomplishment? If so, I'll send a resume. Saab is still awful, Opel is about to be kneecapped by Chevy & the man responsible is GM's pick for savior?) If true, this is the best GM can muster as RW's replacement when they're circling the toilet as we write?

None taken. And I don't wish to offend you, but this whole thing is perplexing. This change is just in time to really benefit from the new labor/healthcare agreements. PCS-since you might know--why is GME being given this assignment? I'd be interested to hear the internal rationale for inserting GME into NA, other than product--which as we all know can be done anywhere on the planet, given the state of tech today. Is CPF in line for the throne? Because that's the only reason that makes sense.

Sure. CNN/Money http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articl...7ed87997747.htm "Lache said that based on a recent survey of dealers, U.S. sales of light vehicles appear to be tracking at about 13 million units for the first half of June on a seasonally adjusted annual sales rate basis." And... Detroit Free Press (A homer paper, which is even more distressing) http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID...1/1210/BUSINESS But sales were 7% to 8% below that rate in April and May. And so far in June, he said, J.D. Power and Associates and Citigroup are seeing a sales pace that is almost 20% lower -- only 12.5 million vehicles per year.

NOOOOOOOOO! No more brands! They can't manage or develop product for the ones they have. Also, you're screwing Chevy dealers--your volume retailer. The 'vette is fine where it is. Sell Hummer, Sell Saab---anything but more needless complication. Why would you tinker with Corvette retailing when they sell every one they make? How about pruning the mid-management white collar ranks at GM? How about cutting the Executive Pay and tie it to company performance--how about stripping RW, Lutz, et al. of their bankruptcy-proof golden parachutes and make 'em earn it? There are a million ways to improve GM without screwing with its one iconic symbol. There are many ways to streamline and improve product development without more senseless reorganization. Keep GME developing small cars--and have them e-mail the plans to NA--you don't need GME to run NA. They've never proven competent in running their own empire. GM needs to hunker down, continue to produce good or better product and pray that the current June 08 NA Market Annualized selling rate of 12.5million cars recovers quickly. That's right--the entire market for New Vehicles is running at a 20% lower rate than GM's geniuses estimated (16mill). For the unaware, that's a D3 death sentence. Time to get to work, guys. Forget about putting a birthday candle on this turd. It's product, product, product from here on out...

With all due respect, the Fit blows the Aveo away. So does the Mazda 2 (& likely the Fiesta), as well as Fiat products The 09 improvements have been previewed in other markets without great acclaim. At the end of the day, this car shouldn't even be here, the Corsa should. The Aveo was engineered as a budget entry, a generation behind class product at the time. GM has dramatically improved the vehicle in 09, but they need game-changers in this sector, not also-ran product that will please the guy downsizing from an Impala. Packing a significant overhaul in the same wrapper is also silly. The new nose is awkward---if you're going to change it, at least make it better looking, no? Sorry, this is an 'old' GM-think model--I think of the improvements as necessary to bring the car barely up to 1st world standards of economy, quality & safety.

Right. The Aveo is awful, the Corsa mediocre. And giving the reins to GME based on their history is suicide.

In other words, GME hasn't proven itself, but what the hell? That's absurd. Just because the US is moving to small cars doesn't mean that GME is equipped to supervise the changeover---especially given their spotty product history. Do we need more mediocrity? GM moving the 1.4 is a good idea, we'll see how it's executed. Keep in mind that Toyota, Nissan, VW & just about all international players with small car portfolios have efficient diesels, smaller engines available in cars they currently sell here & actual experience making a buck with small car--whereas GM has treated B/C cars as an inconvenience in the US. Want proof? Why is the Aveo sold here but not the infinitely superior Corsa? Expecting sterling execution from GM would be a drastic underestimation of the challenges ahead. VW has twin-charged small engines in Golfs right now! Honda has brilliant small diesels in its Euro offerings--right now (TSXd here in 09!) Even Ford has plenty of small engines in Europe, plus Mazdas expertise & the Fiesta will be here in '10. At best, GM is moving with the market. They're ahead of noone in this effort. At best.

Plan is great...assuming GM's got the cash to do it. Unfortunately, the more realistic scenario is less product, fire sale of remaining assets & a hail mary attempt with the Volt to become relevant again. With all due respect to PCS, leaving GME to run GM is simply stupid. GME hasn't proven it can eke out more than modest profits with its mainstream and quasi-lux Euro brands--and they haven't been incredibly consistent with that either. Combine that with spotty product history with the mid-pack offerings in the B/C/D sectors in Europe and you've got a recipe for another disaster. How about just clearing out the exec suite, with the exception of Lutz? Either hire Wolfgang B. to run the show or find some non-car guy to save the day. Half measures will do nothing but slow the slide--they need to reverse it entirely.

Unbelievable that the debate here at all centers around, god forbid, good, exciting product. Maybe GM should 'challenge' its dealer body with more mediocrity! Who cares whether its enthusiasts, the media or your grandma recommending GM product? The 'bu & CTS have proven (conclusively) that product excellence is the way out for GM. The sooner the Impy, Cobalt & Aveo are replaced with truly competitive product, the better. Anyone suggesting otherwise simply doesn't understand how the Japanese have grabbed 50% of the US market--nor how difficult GM will find to get share back now that it's gone. Bear in mind, GM employees were wearing 29 pins 2+ years age. Those who believe that a sub-20% marketshare isn't a permanent situation is fooling themselves. And assuming it can't go lower is even more foolhardy. Keep up the pressure with good stuff, GM. Ignore the guys screaming about quarterly sales and concentrate on surviving into the next century!

We're sold out. IMO, it looks deceptively small outside & the interior is the best Chrysler has done in years. My gut tells me that despite Chrysler's woes, the Journey with DSG (currently available in Europe, IIRC) and a clean MB diesel, might have the best chance of all Chrysler's offerings of being a breakout hit. The Charger, Challenger, Journey, Patriot, 09 Rams, minivans & Wrangler are the backbone of the Corp. right now. There's real automotive talent around Chrysler...the real question is whether they'll have the $ to execute.

I can't comment on the quality of the information...only that source is probably about the only one equating that era of Accord with the Lumina on any level. My main point was that if one is going to denigrate a resource in one post, but then use the same info to make a point in the next one--I'm going to call BS.

1. No, Toyota doesn't. Management may use Toyota as a boogeyman, but they're not omniscient. There's no policy that I'm aware of that prevents or attempts to silence mechanics, service writers or management...I've never heard that at a meeting and I've never seen any instruction to that effect by Toyota themselves. I would think it would, however, be common sense for an employee of a franchise not to be walking around bashing their own company---whether its because of F&I shenanigans, warranty repairs or product---but that's a different issue. I know there are "Loyalty Agreements" used by some places, or NDA's that guys sign upon leaving, but it's not Toyota specific. 2. The rust issue on the Tacoma is frightening...I sincerely hope they get to the bottom of that rust issue. It's beyond bad and is a serious black eye for Toyota.

And yet, just 10 posts later....you DO use said info to make a point. You're simply such a hypocrite, you can't hold even avoid your own bias, just 10 posts later! And that's why I can't stand your constant badgering...you can't even remain logically consistent for an afternoon! If you can't see why that's wrong, or misleading or simply, dumb, than I can't help you. As stupid as trying to equate the Lumina with any generation Accord. One defines GM's utter disdain for customers, the other simply exemplifies how much disdain GM displayed. But, hey, I'm sure 'Biz would have given me a good deal on that Lumina. And now, Biz...you will be treated to the Deafening Silence you requested....

Firstly, dealers are independently owned and operated. So drawing a conclusion about Toyota from one of their franchisees isn't 100% fair. That being said, most manufacturers have developed a resistance to covering lots of problems where service records aren't impeccable--that's just the business, nowadays. Second, the Tacoma rusting is a huge blemish---the unintended acceleration is simply BS--but I can't name a company that hasn't had embarrassing recalls--from GM's current hybrid battery disaster to Ford's cruise-control switches to VW's ignition coils to Toyota's sludge. Toyota has simply been proven human. And lastly, I'm not sure how one can 'blame' a company for aggressively pursuing its advantages. It's like asking a shark not to feed. I won't bore you with Detroit's history--from Henry Ford's Union-busting thugs to GM's Nader-baiting, but to assign some greater evil to Toyota is simply not logically consistent. Remember, successful Toyota plants, franchises and suppliers all employ a ton of Americans, and will continue to do so (& grow) for the forseeable future. Not so, the Det2.8.

Here's the quote. (From your post #182, page 10.) I don't see any qualifiers to your statement: And yet even when confronted with 'evidence,' the naysayers still read from the same prayer book, or did you even bother to read Shadowdog's post from ConsumersGuide? Consumer's Guide ranked the Lumina and Accord exactly even. Your relentless need to prove me, or anyone not of your opinion, as incorrect is simply annoying. Selectively cherry-picking a source is simply more annoying. And misleading people is just the topper, to me. Like I said, no further replies are necessary. Thanks.