enzl

My 2nd Car was an 84 Subie 4WD Wagon...now that was underpowered! Put my 'rents in a '04 Legacy GT Wagon. With proper maintenance, Subaru's will run forever. IMO, they've out-Saabed Saab and created the CUV craze---a niche brand with Toyota's deep pockets... A good buy, even though something expensive may be needed--simply lots of parts that wear with the AWD system, bottom line.

Nissan will pull the plug on most/all of its consumer large truck offerings when the light commercial vehicles are ready to be produced in Canton. I don't know if that includes the Xterrra or Pathfinder--both of which are more 'international' in size.

I see a Neon & PT Cruiser replacement as being a smarter bet than the Caliber & Compass.... 09 Compass/Patriot/Caliber will see 'improved' interiors. Ironically, the Compass is supposedly a decent seller outside of the States, so it may have a stay of execution. Chrysler is in survival mode...if nothing else, the money-men behind them have an idea of what it will cost to right the ship. Whether or not they choose to pay that tab is another story.

For clarity, I think our arguments sidetracked the thread...I've got no beef with the Lambdas as product. They are the 7/8 passenger CUV I would happily recommend to a friend. They are arguably best in segment--although their sheer size makes it hard to state exactly what segment that is exactly.... My exclusive issue with the Lambdas is the proliferation to 4 makes. I believe the Traverse makes sense--and the Enclave is the best Buick in 20 years. It's the Acadia and Outlook that trouble me---especially the Saturn, as I don't believe the market is ready for 40K Saturns---and the sales figures seem to support that statement. To me, I'd sooner see Outlook's marketing $ go towards the 4 cylinder Aura and Astra--the development money saved could have shaved a few pounds off the Vue while they were at it... ...which is central to the issue of too many divisions..blah, blah, blah....It's all interelated, unfortunately.

It's obvious I'm beating my head against the wall. I'll take the Toureg v. Cayenne or Altima v. Max (I note there are no takers for that pic comparison) against: Terrazza v. Uplander v. Montana OR Colorado v. Canyon OR N cars OR X cars OR 9-7X, T-blazer, Ranier, Bravada, Envoy--I mean, that list alone is COMIC! Keep on sipping the Kool-Aid boys---I'll be sure to keep the lights on for ya! Thanks to DF above---You gotta admit there's a problem before you can fix things---here's hoping there's a few more 'pessimists' on staff to help GM right the ship.

Might as well be, IMO.

All the hue and cry makes me laugh...I'm simply telling it as it is...you guys are so caught up in your GM-spin that you can't see the forest for the trees. If the 4 minivans, 4 lambdas, 360's, 355's and GMT900's aren't enough proof that similar-looking product in GM's arsenal has been a constant issue--and that GM's rep has suffered for it (go back and look at the X's, A's, N's et al... )to get a history of mediocre differentiation. You HONESTLY think the Toureg gets confused with the Cayenne? Really? Or the Altima looks like the new Max? Even Hyundai/Kia has done a better job of hiding common roots, other than their minivans... I'm simply calling it as I see it. I'm negative because the situation is terrible...as I've been saying for my years on this board...and now, the worst has come to pass, and I'm wrong? You were wrong about the future 2 years ago---everything I warned about has come true---yet I'm the moron? You can't let your personal animosity let me be correct--in your own minds. I am confident my business and I will be left standing in all of this. My organization will sell more GM product than anyone in our region. We're doing our best to make it work. What are you doing that's MORE supportive? A patriot speaks against his government in order to support change to make things better. You guys keep up with the status quo. GM's doing great, according to you.

You are simply wrong. Just look at the GMT-360's....if they only share 1 body panel, than GM's designers should have been fired---the appearance that the T-blazer and Ranier are the same is the problem, not a body panel count. If you really think that the Max/Altima or Toureg/Cayenne are in the same discussion, I can't help you, man. The media didn't design the 360's--GM did. Time to own our mistakes. The competition is stealing your lunch and you're worried about how many interchangable body panels there are...FOG, I'm sure GM's got a job for You! The media, it turns out, was pretty spot on about product and planning and the D3's dim propects...don't play the victim, this train was coming a long time ago...don't turn this into a 'media bias' issue. GM was dumb. They failed enthusiasts, shareholders, dealers, loyal customers...you name them, GM reached out and screwed everyone they touched-- I'm right. Been proven right countless times. You're wrong---and your ridiculous defense of one of GM's MOST badge engineered product lines only serves to prove how pointless your argument is, period. How about just leaving my replies alone? Between you and 'Biz, I don't know who the greatest source of misinformation is on this site.

Umm...Rich people employ people like you and me. If they're less rich (which you propose is no bad thing), both of us have no jobs. They go off on vacation to Bermuda. You simply don't know what you're talking about....either about GM woes or business in general.

Reg--I've openly admitted working for a large dealer group---but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the issues dealers have created for themselves, nor the necessity to get rid of alot of them. But here's where you're showing your ignorance: The franchise laws protect many different businesses, from Chevy's to Subway shops---in your zeal to paint me as a heartless rep of the dealer zombie's, you completely ignore the fact that franchise laws mostly protect the small biz owner that has taken his life savings to open a local Taco Bell...so, again, your ignorance is open, obvious and defeats your entire argument. If we were offered enough to sell our domestic franchises (and remember, it cost $millions to set up most mid-sized dealerships) we'd sell---it's simple economics. The consequences of tearing up franchise laws would, in essence, steal $ from employers in order to give it to GM? How is that fair? And more importantly, I've seen NO evidence they'd do anything smart with the $ anyway---so why not let my vampire sales-zombies sell away? As for rebadges--it's simply stupid. It'll kill the Saturn and looks like bad-old GM all over again. The Traverse should be out, but not with 3 sisters that are largely the same. And, as for your lesson in product planning---IF GM had bothered to develop decent small cars, they would magically have them to sell---today---immediately. Instead they're trying to pimp Aveos and sorry Cobalts against real competition...please.

Kudos to GM is deserved...I think they beat every experts' estimates. The Yearly Sales rate is scary, but its a reprieve from all of the bad news and they do deserve credit for a job done.

Note that I said SELL, not close-down brands....because of State franchise laws--you know, the ones that protect individuals that have put $Millions into a franchise, you MUST sell them off, not close them down. There will be lawsuits, but it simply isn't the same as a shut-down like Olds. Second, they've been combining channels (B-P-GMC) and Hummer with Saab & Caddy for years....how has that worked out? You've still got to eliminate franchisees to create these 'Superstores', so net-net, its the same as a shutdown of brands. Blaming dealers is like blaming McDonalds franchisees for selling tainted meat, when all of their food-stuffs comes from the corporate suppliers in the first place. GM has been 'serving' tainted meat for years. If they were selling at a 30-40%marketshare, magically, there'd be plenty of business for all dealers. The absolute loss of focus on product for years has now come home to roost. Most people simply scoff at the idea of buying a GM product--and that's GM's fault, not the dealers. Dealer are to blame for a whole other set of issues, but they didn't build sh!t product and then foist it on the public. They served the burgers supplied to them. Next time you go on rant, do yourself a favor and look up the info you're ranting about---it just makes no sense to listen to someone when they're completely ignorant as to the topic. And, while your argument before was that GM wasn't badge-engineering, now they are (only) because of the dealers? A little manic, no? GM has the money to right the ship IF they execute a product plan perfectly. What evidence is there that they can do that while right-sizing the ship? None, with this management team in place. You've been given the diagnosis, whether you care to admit it or not.

If 'quitting' means survival, then yes, please call me a quitter. Quick Analogy: If your foot had gangrene, and your choice was to amputate or contract a body-wide illness of life-threatening proportions, what would you do? This is GM's situation. It is dire. Not bad, not 'turning around', simply awful at best. They may not last another product cycle in their current form. If my choice is die or change---I think I'd take the change. You, obviously, feel different. My suggestion is to sell Hummer, sell Saab and try to make sense of the rest of the line-up, knowing that I can now take resources thrown down the toilet and give the next Aura to Pontiac, the next 9-3, 9-5 to Caddy or Buick, the next Astra to Pontiac or Chevy--the H4 could be a great GMC---all without supporting the blackhole that Saab, Hummer or Saturn has become. As I've been one of the few people on this board with the right ideas all along, wouldn't it stand to reason I might be right now? (I just work in the industry, what do you do?) Bear this in mind---if they listened to me, they wouldn't be in this situation. If they listened to you, they'd still be wearing '29' pins and praying for Ch11 help. I'm OK with you thinking I'm wrong. You clearly demonstrate a lack of complete understanding of the situation. GM needs to make MONEY, regardless of how many CARS they make. Forget about notions like market share....look at Europe and you'll get an idea of what a fractured marketplace does to everyone's share of the business.

GM undermines its own good intentions by marketing obviously similar product in different showrooms. You obviously don't understand marketing, nor the expenses of having 4 outlets sell, service, advertise and develop modestly different items. It's not competitors offerings that matter, its the fact that you're robbing from peter to pay paul when your own product competes. It's simply dumb. If you don't understand the costs involved, it's easy for you to opine that it's great product and leave it at that. Your reference to competing companies making competing product as an excuse shows you simply don't understand the problem with 8 channels needing constant feeding or what's really going on with consumers simply ignoring most of what GM has going on---why make that worse with 25% less available marketing dollars?

Umm..wrong on both counts....the Alt/Max are highly differentiated inside and out...the Traverse basically shares everything but front and rear fascias and mild interior changes---even awkwardly placing the Enclaves 3rd side window in a way which looks stupid and compromises rear visability. The Toureg/Cayenne are platform mates that cannot easily be confused, nor do they share 1 body panel. The point you've obviously missed is that all 4 lambdas simply compete with each other.....on pricing, equipment---hell, at B-P-GMC stores, 2 sit on the showroom floor together, while the Outlook langushed without Chevy's competition--what do you think will happen now? Lambdas are a great product, heroically mismanaged & a super example of the one step forward--two step back GM that is now circling the drain due to idiotic decisions like the Traverse---to make matters worse, handing Spring Hill to Chevy production means no option of selling Saturn with a unique production facility! This is a great product, marketed and sold by morons. With bad timing. And an inability to learn from past mistakes. This is why GM is doomed without a clean sweep of the Boardroom & Exec suites.

Here's the problem: What does the Traverse bring to market that the 3 existing vehicles don't have? Answer: Nothing. The 'bu brought substantive improvements to the Ep I package--in a distinct wrapper. The Traverse doesn't even do that. Granted, Chevy will sell alot of these, but again GM is displaying the utter impossibility of supplying it dealer network with adequately differentiated product. If this is the best they can do, better to shutter some divisions or sell 'em.

I'm really not such a bad guy. I was hoping that someone up at the tubes was listening (or reading). I feel way worse about being right than being wrong in this case. Lots of people are going to lose everything because of the Executive Level negligence at this company. I'm sorry that I was harsh at times...but I really felt that there was a severe lack of urgency in GM's planning. Unfortunately for everyone involved, the worst may be coming to pass.

Looks like more corporate ADD....no immediate Saturn turnaround?--Let's panic and go off in another direction. Just like the premature culling of Zetas, or the indecision on FWD v. RWD Impy's or just about any other decision made in the last 10 years. Question: If GM can't afford to develop carlines, how are they going to afford snuffing out GMC or Pontiac? Olds was a $1Billion+ years ago....wanna guess what these brands are going to cost to kill? I just don't understand this company, at all. Caddy is regressing back to FWD architectures with the latest Theta+ and Lambda rumors. RWD and HF V8 development is being limited, despite the fact that every premium manufacturer in the world is sticking with it (you know, the kind of cars that make SUV-type $). Saturn isn't even being given a product generation to see if it can work with the new direction, Chevy has no truly competitive C/B class vehicles (despite being GM's volume brand)...the list is endless. It's no wonder the stock is in the toilet and the 'experts' are predicting doom. If you really scratch the surface, the Volt "Hail Mary" is all you can hang your hat on...and GM's record with new tech is mixed, at best. These are scary times to be a GM fan, my friends. Even scarier if you're a GMC, POnitac, Buick, Hummer or Saturn franchisee.

America hates losers. GM's perception is that of a loser. There are plenty of beloved American companies, GM, however, is simply not one of them. Whether its because of the product foibles or simply being the leader for so long with a target on its back, that doesn't change reality. With the herd mentality in the US at large, its simply no surprise that we have fled the domestics...but, all that being said, it doesn't change the fact that GM has dug a large hole for itself. These other factors are simply the natural offspring of GM's failures. There's no 'chicken & egg' debate here---GM's poor decisionmaking has opened the door to the competition and, basically, let the theives into the house. To stretch the analogy--GM (nor we) should be surprised that the TV is gone and the family silver, too. Blaming others is a uniquely American pasttime---and I can't accept the idea that this is someone else's fault. It's far past the time to acknowlege mistakes and work towards solutions--the Union, surprisingly, has done their part. Now its time for GM to figure out how to do theirs--that means product development & strict discipline with every $ spent. You think this management team can do that? What evidence exists that they can both formulate an effective plan and then execute it flawlessly?---anything less and GM's going Oldsmobile on all of us.

Toyota has led in retail sales for months, actually. The sad fact is this day was coming, its just been accelerated by circumstances.

There are very few 'bu's available that way and, according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov, the '09 1.8 Corolla is more efficient, the 2.4 less. The 08 Corolla is more efficient, period.

Thanks. If interested about the drilling boondoggle---there's some interesting stuff about the fact that most of the areas currently open for drilling (80%) haven't been explored yet....I'd like to see them exploit those areas first, personally. The truth is we need energy independence, not more oil.

IIRC, you are right. I'm not sure how many 4cyl/6A 'bus have actually reached dealerships, yet. It was one of the victims of the strike....I'm going to take a look at our inventory today to see if any are on the ground here.

Umm...the great majority of cars on Toyota's lots DO have higher highway MPG--(Yaris>Aveo, Corolla>Cobalt, Camry>Malibu, RAV>Equinox, Prius> all GM products)-and GM has used a 30+ marketing tagline for years (there's tons of 'em up in our Chevy showroom), so is GM being deceptive too? You must be careful when talking out of both sides of one's mouth. Tends to hurt your argument. Criticize Toyota for its 'sweat shop' problems or treatment of temps or dumb moves with big trucks...at least things that have some merit. The knee-jerk reaction for an ad that's entirely accurate and, actually, a rip-off of prior GM ads is just silly.

Maybe if GM had concentrated on making great product, rather than great amounts of money....unfortunately, the economic forces that are hurting GM's turnaround are just one of the reasons why GM should have not let it get to that point. Noone can predict a terror attack. Or war in oil-producing areas. Or a mortgage meltdown. However, preparedness as an organization means being ready for the unexpected, the emergency that impacts business. There is simply NO excuse for the situation GM finds itself. And absolutely noone to blame (not that they won't try---"It's not MY fault" has become the US's national mantra). Let's call it what it honestly is: A debacle of epic proportions--a failure at the highest levels of GM. They're endangering the company, their shareholders, their franchisees, the communities they employ people in...the whole nine yards. I lost all sympathy for GM's management years ago. It's time for massive change--if nothing else, I can't see it being made worse. The Ostriches have come home to roost. Congrats to all defenders of the status quo down at the tubes. Your cheerleading their behavior has only served to validate one of the saddest stories told in modern industrialized US history. Maybe somebody will listen to the contrarians now?