The O.C.

It's HARDLY retarded....... I don't know if I agree with calling top-line Chevy's "Buicks" but the paragraph that describes the problem with GM and their divisions is SPOT on the money...."They don't just steal sales from each other, they pull themselves into a pit of mediocrity." I did a quick check online......and Malibu sedans run from a base price of $17,640 to a fully-loaded LTZ at $25,394. G6s run from a base price of $16,990 (what's the Pontiac doing coming in CHEAPER than the Chevy equivalent????) to a fully-loaded GTP at $27,955 (and that's mostly some extra options that are not available on Malibu accounting for a good portion of that extra amount.) SO....there you have it. Two identical cars (basically....underneath the skin, architecturally and powertrain-wise) on two VERY similar, if not identical, pricing structures......with styling being the only real differentiator. Total cannibalization of each other.

How can you even make that statement? The CSVs are just about as identical as Cobalt/G5 and Equinox/Torrent. How are Cobalt/G5 considered "acceptable" levels of badge engineering? What's acceptable about them? NOW....old they may be....but the W-cars/GM-10/midsize sedans from GM ARE what I consider doing badge engineering the "right" way. Look at Impala.....Grand Prix.....LaCrosse. They are damn-near identical under the skin....but don't share any exterior panels or interior styling among themselves.

And you know what.....taken in isolation, it's not a bad looking little car. It's just the fact that GM is still resorting to such blatant badge-engineering such as the Cobalt/G5 and Equinox/Torrent.

Noting YOUR heavy sarcasm.....here's MY list of getting a seal of approval for Lucerne....(noting some are easier than others...) * Bring back the "Premium American Motorcars" tagline * Make Lucerne RWD * Std 3.6L VVT HF V6, Opt. 291hp 4.6L northstar from DTS "high-performance" version. * Get rid of bench seat/column shifter configuration - even in base CX. * Bring CX and CXL suspension and steering tuning on a par with CXS. Tire/wheel differences can account for the different models. CXS can remain exclusive with magnetic shocks. (Note...even CXS has a comfy ride...it's not like I'm asking it to be BMW-stiff.) * Add features we've all asked for....(xenons, articulating headrests, power t/t, auto up and down on all four windows, etc.) * Some more DTS-level dash material instead of the hard plastic. Other than that, it's great. I have no problem with styling....inside or out.

Even the suburbs aren't that nice....at least when compared to other similarly-sized metro areas. I lived in Oakland County for a few years....and the whole area, even upscale suburbs, have a kind of "blue collar" feel (no offense to any C&G'ers here that work in the plants.) Even in like Birmingham or Bloomfield Hills, the strip malls look old and there doesn't seem to be any of the kind of beautiful landscaping you get in southern California suburbs or even like in Minneapolis (where I was for work the first time a few weeks ago) another midwestern city that does NOT resemble a "rust-belt" city. Downtown Birmingham itself has some nice shops and bars....and Ann Arbor still has a funky, un-Michigan-like feel. Other than that, I never saw any appeal to the entire Detroit metro area.....

You are right. That's why every "premium" auto manufacturer offers bench seats and column shifters. <note heavy sarcasm>

I think they are....but the Mazda5 seems way roomier inside. I'm sure alot of that has to do with the much larger greenhouse.

I'd be curious of what the lease would be on a base WRX? I know the dealers hate having this model in stock. Most of the demand for Impreza seems to be for WRX.

#1 Best-Selling car? Gee.....could it be, just MAYBE, just MAYBE, that the Camry is a well-engineered and well-executed product? (Note....you didn't see me say "exciting...")

<groan> Where do I start? First of all, yeah....LTZs are in rental service. I had one in Las Vegas with the 3.9L. Secondly, nah.....I don't believe that the Impala was that sluggish over the pass....and that a Corolla would outrun it....that DOES sound like hyperbole from the writer. HOWEVER, I want to put this thing to bed about how everyone claims the Corolla is a rolling turd.... It's not the fastest thing around, but the 130hp motor (not 118 as you stated) is actually quite quick when teamed with a manual transmission....prompting these words from C&D in their comparison tests of economy sedans.... "....and boy is the motor strong. The Corolla showed its taillights to all the rest in the acceleration tests." They also called it an "excellent combination of performance and fuel economy. I believe the 0-60 was in the low-8sec range. The XRS does it in the low-7sec range. Just wanted to add some clarification.

I NEVER see a Torrent around here. In fact, amazingly enough, I don't even see any Torrents with rental-bar codes. The last time I saw a Torrent was when I was in Minneapolis for work two weeks ago.

Yeah....a truly awful badge job. Look how the (split-port) grille itself is just part of a plastic piece that is pasted into the front of the car. Can you get ANY cheesier?

That's not what he said; he said value- for the money spent, the bentley is a major disappointment. Look at the interiors. The convert costs $360K, looks like maybe $75K hope the other $285 is in matching luggage in the trunk. $285K for a badge is rape & robbery rolled together with a sound bitch-slappin'. 173703[/snapback] Value-for-the-money-spent is all relative. There's a reason people will spend that kind of money on a Bentley (or Rolls, or Maybach, or Ferrari, etc.) People (of course) aren't comparing a $285K Bentley Mulsanne cabriolet with a Cadillac. In fact, people aren't cross-shopping these with most cars. People spending that kind of cash are buying a luxury.....to them, automobiles are not a necessity. People buy these kinds of cars like they buy boats, planes, and other luxury lifestyle purchases. AND....the "old" Bentleys may be dated.....but you can't argue about how much the craftsmanship and quality of the leathers, carpets, and woods add to the appeal of the vehicle.

When was Torrent introduced? Could the big Torrent "gain" be because there weren't alot out there a year ago?

I always saw Clay as a bottom.... Are you sure it wasn't the porn star that boned Clay??

Nah....I've been blessed with no hair on my back OR shoulders. And my chest hair is really just kinda on my pecs...it doesn't go that far up to my neck. I avoid the "tuft of chest hair poking out of the top of my shirt" syndrome.

You are right.... Except one thing that has to change is Buick's reliance on entry-level models that are substandard and non-competitive in the marketplace...IF, as you say, they are truly going to remake themselves as a premium/luxury brand in NA. I'm referring to Lucerne CX, LaCrosse CX, pushrod V6 engines, soft and unresponsive base-level suspension tuning with high-aspect-ratio inexpensive tire choices, split-bench seats with column shifters, etc. I'm not saying every Lucerne has to be a $38K CXS....but Buick/GM has got to start sweating more of the details on the $26K version.

Yeah....I was late to this thread.....

As good as the LS-series motors are, the European V8s are beginning to surpass them in terms of smoothness, refinement, tractability over the whole rev range, with competitive power and fuel economy. I've fallen in love with BMWs 4.4L valvetronic V8 and the new 4.8L is even more impressive. Same thing about the Benz 5.5L. Even the "old" 5.0L/302hp engine was shocking how strong it was from a launch and how hard it pushed you into the seatback. It's for these reasons I'd really like to see GM stay on TOP of the NorthStar program. The LS-series engines are great enough to deserve a dedicated place in GM's powertrain lineup....but GM also needs the keep the NorthStar-series engines world-class.

GM does 400hp with a 6.0L pushrod....not a 5.7L. The Benz motor is phenomenal.....I drove it in an S550.....and it's tangible benefits (versus the LS series motors) are a marked increase in refinement, smoothness, and energetic pull all the way from a stop to redline.

You are very correct. It is the large rental fleets that do the most damage to a vehicle's residuals/resale value....primarily due to the very aggressive pricing schedules that the manufacturers work out with the rental agencies when they repurchase the cars. Then, the rental cars go through the auction at relatively low prices....allowing dealers to then offer those "used" cars with "low" miles for a much more aggressive price.....and that makes buying a "new" one look like a stupid move....reducing the desirability of the "new" one. SO....a used one purchased new at a dealership becomes MUCH more difficult to RESALE.....because so many of these previous rental cars are out in the same marketplace...

All this car does is placate whining Pontiac dealers. It does not do anything to improve GM's standing in the compact marketplace that additional Cobalt production and/or sales couldn't take care of..... It's not like the G5 has any distinguishing features to make it a tempting alternative to a Cobalt....hence the true problem with "badge engineering."

Please tell me that you aren't seriously trying to compare a FWD DTS with the new Bentley Continental Flying Spur.....?

....some more interesting population statistics from the recently revised '05 census update.... * San Jose, CA (heart of silicon valley) increased population to ~ 912,000....moving it into the #10 largest-city-in-America spot....moving knocking Detroit down to 11th place....and Detroit ended up with ~ 887,000 people....sliding below the 900K mark for the first time in a VERY long time.... * San Jose is also the third largest city in CA. with about 172K MORE people than neighboring San Francisco (which is about the same size as Manhattan Island without the four other bouroughs....very land constrained.) * Chicago now has a million LESS people than Los Angeles. * San Antonio has grown larger than Dallas to capture the #2 spot in Texas. Also, with 1.25M people....but a metro area of only 1.9M people....San Antonio is a large city...with very few suburbs. * At 461,000 people, "little" Fresno, CA., in the San Joaquin Valley, has grown larger than "big" cities such as Kansas City, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and is about as big as Atlanta (470K.) * Seattle (574K) and Portland (533K) are almost the same size. Seattle, however, has ~ 1.7M MORE people in it's metro area. * Minneapolis has only 373K people. But anyone that's been there knows that it has a skyline worthy of a city three times that size and is the most impressive in the midwest with the exception of Chicago. Just some interesting thoughts!

I'd take Phoenix over Houston (used to live in TX myself.) I simply think the desert terrain, flora, and mountains there are beautiful. Houston is flat...flat...flat. Also, I'll take the high heat in Phoenix versus the humidity in Houston ANY day of the week. Finally, Phoenix has some really great areas such as Scottsdale, downtown Tempe, and a surprisingly-renovated downtown Phoenix that add some interesting nightlife and/or "culture."