The O.C.

Not to rag on the Lambdas....but they are gas hogs extraordinaire.......I had an Enclave as a rental and averaged only 14mpg in mixed driving while I had it.....

There's something wrong with your Mom's car. I just got back my '07 A4 2.0T from my ex....and the engine is nearly as smooth as the 3.6L in my CTS....and a damn bit quieter on full-throttle acceleration. As far as the ride....I have the top S-line package with 18-inch wheels and sport suspension and the car rides like a dream. It's more firmly damped than the Caddy, but rides over bumps just as well. The 2.0T is one of the smoothest, best 4cyls I've ever driven.....I've probably been in 3-4 different ones (including mine) and they've all be very smooth.....and very quiet.....

You like that, huh? LOL....I always thought of myself as a "Dorothy" type....

Not in the STE....but it was available in the garden-variety A-bodies. In fact, from what I remember, it seemed to be a pretty decent diesel. I even remember positive car reviews in the buff mags of the time.

OK....one more time....read my post 2-3 times if you have to....let's see if you can even begin to acknowledge the real point I'm trying to make (instead of spinning it and deflecting it away...) I don't care WHAT the reason.....call it media and press brainwashing if you're so convinced that's what it is/was.... The FACT of the matter is.....at some point, consumers began gravitating towards THOSE kinds of products (imports) and away from "traditional" domestic products. GM (and others) refused to step up to the plate, follow the market, and begin offering consumers similar and competitive types of products. In fact, they are only NOW starting to do so (Malibu, CTS, etc.) SO...whatever the reason.......(you think it's media bias/brainwashing.....I think it's the distinctly uncompetitive products GM was offering at the time).......GM didn't respond to the market. OR...we can turn your logic and argument around and use it against a particular market segment that's the largest in the country....and a segment where GM has always been demonstratedly superior.....full-size pickup trucks. Where's the media bias/brainwashing that's keeping all those hundreds of thousands of people out of GM full size pickups? By your reasoning, people should have been gravitating out of GM trucks and into smaller, less-desirable imported pickups a long time ago. But that didn't and hasn't happened. Why? GM has consistently executed a world-class product that appeals to consumers in that market segment. (Key issue here 'Boi) The imports HAVEN'T...and that's why a Toyota Tundra isn't selling 800K-900K pickups a year. I'm done on this issue.

Get a rare one.....STE AWD.....! America's "Quattro"......LOL

I'd take an '88 Classic light years before I'd take an '88 Cutlass GM-10.

No argument on the G8/RL comment. But you still can't say the RL is a "bad" car.....although I'd not be caught dead in one.

.....but you STILL don't get it....! Geez.... The major problem....that GM still doesn't understand....is...right or for wrong...."Suzy McMansion" wouldn't be caught dead in a CTS or Lucerne. THAT'S GM's overriding problem. It's not about whether you or I think a 3-series is superior to a CTS or Lucerne......it's about the fact that GM itself lost this battle in the perception game. And companies like BMW, Honda, and Toyota have won. Those guys didn't win by "brainwashing" consumers or some crazy stupid $h! like that. GM lost it by not having the foresight to see where the market was going....and by continuing to produce products that were less-and-less desirable to consumers. Now....the WAR....? That's to be decided....but GM's not gonna win by keeping the "status quo."

Hey bro....YOU STARTED IT with the Accord/Delta 88 comparo......it was UR argument.....I just brought out the figures to show the waywardness of your logic.

And yet....how do you respond to the fact that GM offered so many clearly uncompetitive products during that timeframe? "Anti-domestic" my ass. It's more like "Anti-crap-products-that-don't-appeal-to-what-people-want-to-drive." Probably GM's biggest misstep in the last 30-40 years was introducing 2-door coupes in the largest market segment in the country.....when EVERYONE else is harboring sedans....(and you know, they missed the boat with the Blazer too.....only responding to Ford's widely successful 4-door Explorer with a hatch-job 4-door version of the Blazer...how many years after Ford made their mark on THAT segment?)

Once again.....FWD 1988 GM-10.....not really a car with any real "import" attributes......underpowered pushrod V6, no airbags, still "domestic" interior appointments.....and 2-door coupes to match. AND...how many of those Cutlass Supreme Classics DID they sell in MY 1988? Not many if I remember correctly.

They weren't "Euro"......they were small.....looked like N-bodies.....yet still drove like domestics. Don't tell me the interior in a 1986 Riviera, Toronado, or Seville had any sort of import "feel" or "design" to it.... They were still distinctly "domestic" cars in styling, engineering, and appeal.

OKAY....I have two dogs......'cause lord knows....I don't like pussy(s) Mini-schnauzers.....one male (3yrs old) and one femail (3.5years old.) They are awesome house dogs.....very clean, they don't shed.....and too smart....almost for their own good.....LOL

Florida's nice when you are coming from a cold-weather region.....but those of us in CA (and the west in general) see Florida weather as a real step back from what we have. Hot, humid, sticky summers AND winters, and lots of rain showers during the summers (you can go 9 months and never see a cloudy sky, or so much as a drop of water in SoCal....) I grew up in Texas....and that's some pretty bad weather all around. Texas is like Florida in the summer.....hot, humid, sticky.....but in the winter, it's no paradise. Even if Texas doesn't get snow hardly ever....it's still freezing ass cold.....with temps in the winter getting into the 20's and 30's too often for comfort. At least in Florida, in the winter, it still stays quite warm....especially if you are down in south Florida.

You know what? I loved the A-bodies....! I liked the Celebrity Eurosport (especially the ultra-cool and ultra-rare VR edition with a 5-speed manual stick) I also loved the Century T-Types and of course the STE..... But as the A-body aged, it didn't age very gracefully......late-model A-bodies were pretty tepid for their time.

I'd have to say worse than the Yugo GV would be......the Yugo GV Convertible..... LOL (Or maybe the Geo Metro convertible?)

This also goes back to your post and my reply in the other thread about the Volt needing to be here TODAY (if not yesterday.) In another thread, I talked tonight about GM's serious lack of foresight in the marketplace and the damage that has done to the perception of GM as a leading manufacturer in this industry (citing the introduction of GM-10s....as coupes ONLY....2 years after Ford brought us the Taurus, and Camry and Accord sedans gaining quickly in popularity.) GM has also been slow to react to the whole hybrid debacle....to it's serious detriment. I can tell you....from experience....in their usual arrogance, GM totally dismissed Toyota when Toyota introduced the first Prius....and now it's Toyota laughing their way to the bank.....and it's Toyota being worshipped by all those "greenies" out there....and all those "lemmings" that have to have "the" latest and greatest. I happen to think hybrids are WAY overrated. But one thing is for sure.....Toyota's introduction of the first Prius and it's much-more-successful second-generation HAS to be THE #1 most significant marketing coup to hit the auto industry in the last 50 years. Toyota was the first to do it.....and now you can't escape the hybrid craze. Prius'....Civics.....Camrys.....Lexus'.....and GM STILL has yet to come to the table with a fully-competitive, full-hybird, mass market offering. (Malibu and AURA "mild" hybrids don't count.) AND we are now just seeing two-mode hybrids being introduced....in limited production....in SUVs and pickup trucks. Remember, Toyota is getting ready their third-generation Prius even as we speak. I'll never fork over the money for a hybrid....and the gas-savings simply don't pencil. However, you can never deny the impact they have had on the marketplace and, more importantly, the impact they've had on consumers themselves! When will GM ever show leadership at this level?

You are SO on the money. A Volt offered TODAY at GM dealerships would be the kind of product impact that GM needs to make to really start making headway at changing the perception. (I could argue that a new Camaro brought out 2 years ago would have made a similar, but smaller, impact...but alas we STILL have another year to wait.)

.....just like the Pontiac dealers screamed about a G5....? LOL

My parents are in Tampa, Florida (similar summers to NC/SC I would assume) and the biggest challenge I have in dealing with the weather is the oppressive humidity. You walk outside your house and you have sweated through your shirt before you make it into your drivers seat of your car. Even at night, it's not really that comfortable going outside or spending time outside. That being said....I can only imagine weather or economy-wise, any of the three states would have to be a step up from Michigan.

A great example of a "rebadge" is the Taurus/Sable. Same body, same powertrains, same interiors......the only differences are (minimal) front and rear styling changes, wheels, and the availability of light-colored wood trim in the Sable. At least the Lambdas all have unique interiors.....and more significant styling changes.

'BIZ......we go over this time and time again...... People "not thinking for themselves" is the time-honored excuse that we've heard way too often for why more and more people are deserting the domestics for the imports. Fact of the matter is....people DO think for themselves. Fact is, today, the imports are offering products that are highly desireable to a large portion of the buying public....a large...and growing portion....I might add. Just because they are not desirable to you doesn't mean they aren't to a vast portion of the public. In reality...no one is making "crap" these days. Even Kia and Hyundai have stepped up the game in ways that none of us could imagine 10 years ago. But....20 years ago, there was a problem with GM and the Big 3 being slow to the game in producing the kind of desirable cars that people were looking to. They let the imports grab it. (Remember GM introducing three divisional 2-door coupes when the rest of the world was moving towards Camry and Accord sedans? Hell even Ford showed them the way in '86 with the new Taurus. Two years' later, in 1988 when the GM-10 coupes arrived, GM still didn't "get it.") The "Camlee" (in Fly's words) may be almost universally hated on this site.....but truth is, it's still a solid contender in the marketplace offering a kind of mass appeal to the marketplace that has made it the best-selling midsize sedan for...how many years?? If the only reason for Toyota's success with the Camry was because "people cannot and will not think for themselves"....then the same argument just HAS to be made that that's the ONLY reason the Silverado/Sierra is the best-selling full-size truck in the land. Right??

WOW....that's so ver-sah-tie-ul of you....! :AH-HA_wink:

I agree.....I had two of these cars purchased new back in my GM days......a base Beretta with the V6, 5-speed, Eagle GA tires and an Olds Achieva W41 Quad 4 H.O. Neither car, in reality, was as accomplished of a driver as the imports of the day. Like I said in an above post....the perception gap probably isn't all that due to the actual reliability of the cars GM offered then.....the gap is most likely more due to the uncompetitive nature of the styling, fit-and-finish, and the way the cars drove. The Beretta may have been a looker, and the H.O. Quad 4 Achieva had a lot of power......but neither was even close to the imports of the day in terms of overall driving appeal and fit-and-finish, etc.