The O.C.

Yeah....we hashed that out already...... They sold them the older 5-speed autos......most of the 6-speeds that BMW uses now are ZF units. But someone on here said that some 3- and 5-series cars (the 3.0L versions, not the 3.0L twin-turbos) still use a GM 6-speed auto.....but I'm not sure that's the case...... That's hard info to find to collaborate....

GM has made a name for itself in being notoriously late-to-the-party in just about any market segment it competes. They are still being hampered by that issue.....just like Camino said. What they need to do, more importantly than the goodness of the upcoming product, is find a way to somehow invest further in the product development program and start getting this stuff here earlier. (And yes I realize the challenges behind decreasing this lead time.) In 1986, Ford brought out the award-winning, and critically-acclaimed, Taurus. Two years' later, we get three GM-10 coupes. We had to wait ANOTHER, what 3-4 years before we got a midsize 4-door sedan to compete with Taurus, Accord, and Camry? In 1991, GM introduced the new N-car compacts.....with no airbags, and a 3-speed automatic.....at a time when the market had already embraced airbags and 4-speed autos. When Ford introduced the original 4-door Explorer off of the Bronco II chassis.....how many years did it take GM to chop-and-paste the Blazer/Jimmy into a 4-door competitor? Chrysler introduced the minivans. GM, to this day, has never built a truly competitive entry. (Although neither truly has Ford.) Toyota introduced the Prius.....Honda, the Insight. We STILL don't have a mainstream full-hybrid (two-mode?) GM car. (edit: okay Insight is hardly "mainstream" but I believe it was the first, no?) There are just examples of major market missteps......but missteps of the kind that I still see GM making. The big debate is....when you are playing continual "catch-up," how do you pull ahead and begin leading the pack? (Whew.....caffeine-induced rant has finally ended.....)

Show me a post where I have "over-generalized" about the midwest or northeast. Please. Try to find one. I've said it's "not for me" and I don't want to live there....but ranted on a diatribe about the midwest like you did above about CA...? Nope....you won't find that.... And...btw....do your mortgage industry homework. CA is hardly the worst for foreclosures......for one thing, check out Nevada.......or Michigan........ You may not like it here.....or you may be overly jealous 'cause you are stuck in PA when those of us out here are living in paradise.....whatever....only you know. (EDIT: Trying to inject some sarcasm into this post)......But I credit you with far more intelligence than to spout the kinds of media-kool-aid like you did above. And for the matter...I know ALL ABOUT how PA rose from the sorrows of the steel industry. I was there to witness it in person in Bethlehem. In fact, Michigan could learn a HUGE lesson from PA on how to rebound from a struggling industry and how to differentiate your jobs and work force.

When you get down to it, it's supply-versus-demand. I'm sure BMW corporate wouldn't want to see any dealer markups.....but to be honest, if I was a dealer, I'd do the same thing given the circumstances. I have a buddy that works at a Porsche dealership here in SoCal.....and they got like 4 Carerra GT3 RS models all of last year. Now don't you think there was a hefty markup on each and every one of those? Damn straight....... Same thing happened way back when with the Buick Grand National GNX.

In one sense, I think one reason it failed was the Mustang GT. (The Mustang doesn't offer a sunroof either.) But I think people looking for that type of car saw the Mustang GT as a much better value-for-the-money......almost as fast, but alot cheaper....and (this is subjective) with much better styling.

I have AutoWeek and Automotive News come in the mail......and so does WhatCar? because I can't find it on the shelves. I pick up the others separately.......partly because I have a newsstand in Redondo Beach that gets them all early (I'm talking around the 24th-25th of the month for the "new" issues).....and I'm way too impatient to wait for them to come in the mail. Those are: Car & Driver Road & Track Motor Trend Automobile CAR TopGear EVO AutoCar (weekly) I don't keep AutoCar, AutoWeek, or Automotive News though........

Not to mention it's the largest manufacturing state in the union....and is the largest agricultural region in the country. I'm not trying to turn this into a CA-vs-the-rest-of-the-USA thread, but it irritates me to no end to hear people spout off the exact same media kool-aid that they claim "we" are promoting....LOL....what's the logic in that? You'd think more intelligent people would be smart enough to look past the Britney Spears and Paris Hilton's of the world and realize that there's MUCH MORE that meets the eye then just the sensationalism that the media portrays.....

In many ways you are right.....the car rag nutjobs like me are few and far between. But I still believe that with all the time people are on the computer these days for work and what-not, there's gotta be an escape from the computer....and a magazine helps provide an escape.

What's worse? That....or Challengers in Ohio marked up $40K over their $42K MSRP? That's double.....

LOL.... Obviously this shows how clueless you are about a state in the union with 33MM people.....I really wonder how much time you've spent here.....obviously you've never lived here. Anyone with a HINT of intelligence would know that comments such as yours, that are OVERWHELMINGLY generalized, are baked in ignorance. You really don't know what you're talking about. BTW....I thought it was LOUISIANA that "produced" Britney Spears.....???????????

You're a horny little bastard.....aren't you?

I'm not ga-ga over any Acura....but the RL is the only one I have a real issue with. I think TSX and TL are both fine products, RSX and MDX seem to be pretty-well differentiated from their Honda cousins. The RL seems to be the one truly bastardized product in the lineup. FWD-based, V6, not any roomier than a TL, doesn't really perform better than TL, way more expensive than TL, etc, etc. In fact, (thanks Reg) I'd rather I think be more inclined to take a new RWD, V8-powered Hyundai Genesis than the RL.

I disagree on the internet thing. For me, the internet will NEVER replace the joy of sitting down each month with the new car rags. I don't just "flip" through them, I read them cover-to-cover. I even go through old issues alot of times. But I'm wierd....I have a collection of every C&D, MT, R&T back to around 1970 and Automobile since it came out. I also have all the british mags (CAR, TopGear, EVO, and WhatCar) for the last 5 or so years. Of the three that go back to '70, a few of the early years are incomplete, but from like mid-80's on, I have every issue. As far as Jean, she was replaced as Editor-in-Chief by Gavin Conway, but retained her title of "President." NOW, after checking recent issues, I see that as of 11-07, she once again is listed as "President" AND "Editor-in-Chief." I don't know why this Gavin Conway came in for that short time, but looks like you are right and she's back in charge fully now.

OK....that was wierd..... While reading the end of Reg's last post, a Saturn commercial popped up on the "Today" show.....

Uh....my quote you replied to was talking about living on the East Coast.....what does that have to do with "SoCal" kool-aid.....? There's a huge difference between living in big cities or small towns. If you are truly a small-town fan (and not a small-town-suburb-of-a-bigger-city fan) than you and I will NEVER understand each other's desires on where we wish to live. I'm sure some of it has to do with upbringing.....I've always lived in cities or suburbs of cities while growing up. I don't live in a "city".....I live in a suburb of a city. My city is population only about 43,000......but that's in a county of over 3,000,000.....in a region of about 17,000,000. But I like living where I live because it's squeaky-clean, modern, beautifully landscaped (51% of the town is dedicated to parklands), has beautiful geography (built on hills/mountains just 3 miles in from the ocean), very low-(to no)-crime, great bars and restaurants (even for "just" a small suburb), and of course wonderful weather. The best is that I have all the amenities/culture/dining/shopping/entertainment of one of the country's biggest cities (L.A.) to the north, or another great city (San Diego) to the south. But at the end of the day, I can come home to my beautiful little suburb and escape the "hustle-and-bustle" of the big city. The only real downsides to my little suburb here are congestion and, of course, cost-of-living. But for me, I'm willing to put up with that.

The existing divisions were supposed to learn from Saturn's example.......but never did. We will NEVER know how Saturn's investment might have paid itself back.....if the core concept had been carried through successfully to 2008......

Hmmmm......dum-dum-dee-dum.....

....incorporating it back into GM.....which I think was a huge mistake. For right-or-for-wrong, back in the early-90's, Saturn's dis-association with General Motors was a HUGE selling point. Many people didn't even realize they were purchasing GM products. Saturn was building a name for itself.....and it's own reputation. Not managing (and growing) that properly was the mistake. Funny that....Saturn's reputation and image seemed to tarnish almost step-for-step with it's integration BACK into GM.....to the point of where it is today.....seen by many import-humpers as just another domestic/GM brand not worth of consideration. Many of these import-humpers were the first in line back in 1991 to get onboard the Saturn bandwagon........

Yes....but at that time, you couldn't have built them for an existing division.....and had the impact on the marketplace that Saturn had (marketing-wise.) You couldn't have told the same "story" if the SL sedans and coupes, for example, were introducted as Chevrolets. Was it late? Perhaps. Was it over budget? Perhaps. But with proper focus and management, think where they could have been TODAY.......it COULD have paid off......

Yes....and it's "rough edges" are in a way similar to any U.S. city....you are always going to have your rough edges. But at least in Philly, the city itself, downtown, (or Center City as they called it) was alive, alive, alive.....and a great place to be for dining, shopping, nightlife, or even living. People lived in Center City Philly like they do Chicago, New York, or San Francisco. In Detroit, it seems you never really can escape the "rough edges" and there's not a compensating factor of outstanding culture/nightlife/ambiance.

You know....GM's defining mistake wasn't creating Saturn.....it was the haphazard management that followed...... When it was new, it was the "cute little car with plastic body panels." You think Toyota gets good press these days? Well I (fondly) remember ALL the incredible press Saturn got for it's "environmentally-friendly" Spring Hill manufacturing facility....it's supposed "innovative retail strategy"....it's clean and modern dealerships....it's motivated and enthusiastic employees (dealer and manufacturer)....ia corporate culture amazingly distant from it's GM sister divisions "across town."...It's "re-invention" of the domestic automobile industry. For GM to be so blunderous to not see that and nurture it through the last 15 years is the TRUE mistake..... The first SL Saturns were pretty damn good cars (engine noise aside.) What was troubling was that each new generation that followed got worse-and-worse. Interiors got cheapened dramatically....and the cars seemed to be less-and-less competitive with their import competition.....while the domestics were gaining ground. Then the $h! all finally hit the fan, IMHO, when the ION was introduced. Now we have simply another division of GM.....offering good products, yes, but nothing that really can't be found at any other GM dealership. There is no more magic.....

Well, one could say that Saturn's "job" is done now. Now that GM is producing more-and-more competitive products (re....products that import-humpers should finally now be considering).....there is less-and-less reason for Saturn. I truly do not believe the "no haggle" pricing structure of Saturn is truly a deal-maker....you don't see other manufacturers going to it in order to compete with them. So really there's no advantage there. Astra is really the only Saturn product that offers any tangible advantage over it's GM brethern (Astra versus Cobalt for example.) However, if Saturn never had existed, the Astra could JUST as easily been branded a Chevy or Pontiac. So....ironically, by goading me into this area of discussion, you've led me to believe that Saturn, over all others, really could be the redundant division.

I lived in Philadelphia for 2 years......was transferred there from Detroit. I LOVED it.....what a great city......talk about culture (compared to coming from MI.)

Saturn was appealing in the early-90's.....because it brought an import-like product from a domestic manufacturer to american consumers. Well.....the need for that distinction is less-and-less because other GM divisions are producing better products that are just as appealing (product-wise.) For example.....there's really no reason to pick an AURA over a Malibu (product-wise) other than minor styling differentiations. Ditto the Traverse versus the OUTLOOK. Back in 1991, a new Saturn SL1 or SL2 sedan was way more import-like than the Cavalier of the day.....

Exactly...... I remember when I was going to GMI, living in Michigan.....and travelling to see our "brothers" in Canada for weekend flings, etc.... Alot of Canadians from Ontario that had not travelled the states much pretty much thought that most of the USA was reflected in the cities they HAD been to....like Detroit, Cleveland, or Buffalo....close to the border. I remember one distinct conversation I had with a lad from London, Ontario who asked me if Dallas really was like he saw on TV (the old "Dallas" soap opera).....he wondered if it really was that modern of a city, with a clean landscape, beautiful homes, etc. I said "yes" it was very much like what he saw on TV. He said he really needed to travel the states more...... duh....