The O.C.

Gawd damn.....I have some really great memories of Pontiac myself. Maybe that's why I've been so damn blunt today. GM has totally squandered it. But I don't know that they can recover. So what do they do.....for the greater good of the corporation.....to survive? Keep nurturing a dead duck? Pouring money down an endless pit? I wish they'd just spend the billions and billions to right the wrong and make it a division worth keeping. I just don't see them doing that though.

OK....hindsight is 50/50..... But what if we had Volt.....uh.....today? Where's the "shock-and-awe" from GM? Why didn't Camaro come out 3 years ago? Why doesn't GM lead in ANYTHING? That's one of the reasons so many people just don't even consider GM anymore.....

It's f@#king after midnight there......will you just GO TO BED? <smooch>

I have friends and family that live in Michigan (all import drivers, believe it or not), Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, and I'm sure some other places.... It's not just "location."

IF GM had seen far enough ahead, they would have somehow engineered our 2.4L 4-cylinder Ecotec for installation in the Astra. THAT car, would have provided ~ 170hp, and mileage figures comparable to the 1.8L engine's.....providing great acceleration and powertrain performance AND fuel economy in a European-inspired hatch......something much better for our market. BUT....as I stated eariler.....it's not easy to just "ship" some 2.4L engines over to Europe for "assembly" in an Astra...... But it would have been a great solution to the Astra's powertrain issue.

We can discuss this until we are blue in the head. What we WANT.....and what we BELIEVE.....is not necessarily the realties of the marketplace. GM needs to do what's necessary to be successful. And the market is dictating far different avenues to success than what GM (and many of us) were used to years, or decades before. Like it.....or not.... The question is.....not what do we, as enthusiasts, want.....but what MUST GM do to survive? Unfortunately, I see them as two almost-separate things......

I totally agree with you. In this thread, and the other one, I'm not necessarily arguing with you, but I'm trying to take a most realistic look on the current and future situation. I bet you, and I, could have told GM what to do with Pontiac 15 years ago.....and I bet if they would have, or could have done it, it would be a winning brand today. BUT....what needs to happen never seems to happen. Look at even Cadillac! Even Cadillac doesn't have the cohesive premium lineup it needs to effectively compete with the BMWs, Benzs, and Lexuss of the world. GM doesn't have one fully successful lineup in it's roster....!

Bro....that's just an ignorant statement.......a close-minded view of the (automotive) world....... I'm sorry to say.....(not trying to be a dick...) (Edit: Loyal customers can be different than "enthusiasts" like us on this website......)

Dude...I'm sorry...I gotta be blunt (again..) I don't know ANYONE that gives one &#036;h&#33; about GM......except my friends here on C&G. Not.....a......single......person......in either my personal life, or my career. Even my family. NO ONE. In my social circle, I'm a "lone ranger" when it comes to my appreciation for anything domestic....

You think Toyota has a cadre of loyal fans as dedicated as GM? I bet not..... Look where they are today.....

Camino, like I just said above...... The realities of the marketplace is that GM cannot rely on GM "enthusiasts" and "ambassadors." Those (VERY) few of us will never keep GM afloat. It's going to mean some very severe business decisions that will most likely affect and hurt those of us closest to the corporation. But failing to make those decisions mean clear and certain death for the corporation. We GM "enthusiasts" and "ambassadors" are severly under-represented. We are a unique and dying niche, unfortunately. It's 2008....not 1968. The corporation will not suvive succumbing to only our whims anymore.....

I hate to be absurdly blunt.....but you DON'T matter. Unfortunately, GM can't survive on it's loyal fans alone....in the grand scheme of things. That much MUST be obvious to you.....?

OK. Agreed. But do you think that has even the remotest possibility of happening? And if you don't think so.....then what IS Pontiac?

I know your post wasn't directed at me...... .....but I recently drove an Alfa Romeo GT Coupe with a 1.9L TDI in Frankfurt.....and THAT powertrain would be perfect for North America....! Torquey, responsive, and quick.....perfect for driving in L.A rush-hour traffic.....OR on an interstate out in the country.....and the mileage is fantastic!

Well, I've spent 38 years living here (my life).....LOL....and I can tell you, you don't have to drive foot-to-the-floor to appreciate a responsive powertrain. Our (relatively-speaking) powerful compacts here align MUCH better with automatic transmissions.....which, that C&D comparo with manual trannys aside, are MUCH more popular....even in compact B- and C-segment cars. The more powerful engines in our B- and C-segment cars allow more responsive part-throttle acceleration.....I think that's a tangible benefit that American drivers appreciate.

But you DON'T understand that....! You always seem to have a totally rational view of the worldwide automotive market......and I can appreciate that. But you seemingly simply don't understand or relate to the U.S. market in this situation. What you and I, as enthusiasts, would find as "acceptable" isn't neccesarily a reality in this market. Perception is reality my friend. Consumers in this market are simply used to more powerful vehicles....no matter the class. The automatic Astra over here is even worse, dragging close to 11secs 0-60. That's slower than any vehicle in this market (even an automatic Aveo....timed at 10-4sec in a recent C&D test.) The problem is.....the Astra offers up the worst powertrain performance in it's segment over here.....combined with fuel economy that is midpack....at best.....(referring to the aforementioned C&D comparo.) For example....our "old" Focus goes 0-60 over a second faster (that's not insignificant) yet achieved better mileage overall in C&D's test....and even has much better highway EPA fuel economy figures. (I still think Astra's a great little car......)

Okay....but what is GM REALLY gonna do to separate Pontiac from the GM-divisional run-of-the-mill? In a utopia, it would have all these RWD cars we've been dreaming about. But that's not gonna happen. New G6 on a FWD Epsilon II chassis. Really, in the grand scheme of things....what is going to make the G6 a viable alternative to the excellent Malibu and decent AURA? The days when people bought a Pontiac simply because it was a "Pontiac" are FAR GONE. No Trans-Am. No GTO. No small, RWD entry-level performance coupe and sedan (I bet....you just wait....it won't happen.) WHY DOES PONTIAC EXIST? That's the $1MM question.

Ah hell....I can get a (better-looking) SKY at the local Saturn store. What's special about the Solstice? (Okay, okay....maybe the upcoming Targa.....)

Not really a damp squib. There's a significant difference in powertrain performance in our driving conditions between something like an Astra, and say something like our Rabbit. It DOES make a difference. I'm not arguing with you that cars such as you mention are more than adequate......but that's you....and me....and doesn't neccesarily refect the realities of our market.

AGREED. No one argues that the Astra's level of ride-and-handling composure is EXACTLY what this car needs over here (where so many consumers are gravitating towards import-feeling chassis and suspension setups)......... In fact, I'd think the Astra's germanic ride-and-handling setup will give it a leg-up on the competition. But it IS underpowered for our market. A Cobalt equipped with a 2.4L 4-cylinder and a 5-speed manual transmission ran from 0-60 in 7.1secs in a C&D test......and only 7.5secs with an automatic (in a Pontiac G5).....that's European hot-hatch territory, 'Bloke. However, the 2.4L Cobalt gets the SAME EPA mileage numbers as the less-powerful 2.2L version!

You're missing the point 'Bloke....... Astra is underpowered for a car of it's class in this market. Granted it's more than acceptable in Europe, but here, we are used to cars with much better acceleration and performance than typically what is found in Europe.....for a given vehicle. (Thanks to our typically lower cost of fuel and previous addiction to powerful V6- and V8 sedans.) Yes....the car drives fantastically (apparently) but handling and braking aside, the powertrain is under-nourished compared to what people in this market are used to. Did you look at the above post showing performance figures for 0-60 for many "small" cars tested in a recent Car and Driver comparison? Our BASIC VW Rabbit (your Golf) goes 0-60 in the low 7-sec time (close to your GTI) thanks to a large 2.5L 5-cylinder. There's nothing smaller or less powerful in VW's U.S. lineup! Our "old" Focus, almost cracks the 8.0 sec barrier to 60mph....from it's base powertrain. The vast majority of the cars you list above in your post are slower than just about ANY car sold here in America. It's just the nature of the market, that's all.

I don't know ANYONE that owns a Pontiac. Let's get brutally honest here. Pontiac is irrelevant in today's marketplace. Take fleet/rental sales out of it, and you have a brand that is a trickle in the bucket in regards to true consumer appeal and consideration. I'm sorry to the many Pontiac fans on here (I used to be one of them.) The G8 is WONDERFUL......but it's one lone star in a lineup of totally irrelevant products. G6 is a JOKE. G5 is a JOKE. Torrent is a JOKE. Grand Prix is (was?) a JOKE. Let's be f@#kING honest here. This product lineup is lackluster at BEST compared to the competition....and really offers nothing that can't be had at another GM division (except the aforementioned G8.) Face it folks. It's GM's Plymouth. DAMMIT I get pissed off. Sorry. End of rant. I'm just sick of all the mediocrity from this corporation and people trying to pass it off as ANYTHING nearing significance in today's marketplace......cause the consumer obviously doesn't consider it significant AT ALL..... :angry2:

Good post. I'm gonna here...... If GM had the foresight many years ago to develop an Astra (and Corsa?) that could have been built over here (or Mexico...whatever) and could have been certified with bigger and more powerful engines to accommodate the U.S. market, but still provide those tangible and intangible assets that makes European GM products so seemingly desirable, GM might be in a much different situation.

It's a "Catch-22" that perhaps can never be beaten.....and that's the scary part. Many say GM can't afford/justify to cut any more divisions/brands..........and many believe they simply can't afford to properly support the divisions/brands they have in order to help them be successful....... So.....with both ends of the tunnel blocked-off, where, oh where do you go?

Fun idea.....but your "Key Competitors" listing shows the difficulty in the challenge you propose...... Pontiac comparing to Porsche? www.notgonnahappen.com. Buick? Ditto Pontiac. Buick can't yet come close to comparing with Lexus, Audi, Benz, or Jaguar in brand perception. Cadillac? Definitely BMW I would think....with some more work....but the rest? Unfortunately never. Chevy, GMC, and Saturn's competitors? Probably on target.