The O.C.

You know who I think has done a pretty decent job (not perfect, but pretty good) with this is the VW Group, specifically in Europe....where they have more brands. You have VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat, Bentley, Lamborghini. There's certainly some overlap in regards to powertrains, switchgear, and the like.....but I think they've done a quite masterful job of building the individual brands and positioning themselves in the marketplace. One thing helping them over there is that in Europe, Audi is positioned, and mostly received by the market, as an A-tier luxury brand right next to BMW and Mercedes. (Over here, it holds a place in the market a step-below.....which can cloud it's positioning versus VW here a little bit more.)

"....stay or go on our own terms." "....business as usual, earning our pay and benefits." Beautiful......just beautiful. :rotflmao: Your post is a typical example of why so many people look upon unions (especially the UAW) with such disdain. Do you not realize that?

Those era Breeze/Cirrus/Stratus were actually quite decent cars to drive! I still remember my first test drive in a loaded Stratus V6 and even thought the interior looked quite nice.

You made some good points in your post......however, the problem with your statement above.....is.....that we don't have more "focused" and more "real performance grade" cars at Pontiac. We have ONE focused Pontiac.....the G8. You might count Solstice.....but even that car shares an almost identical sister at Saturn. So.....count it one point for the G8.....and maybe a 1/2 point for the Targa version of the Solstice (as long as it remains the only one.) Anything else in the future for Pontiac is still conjecture on all of our parts right now.

Agreed. If Pontiac had an SUV that truly defined "sporty", a la Cayenne to Porsche (not that I'm a fan of Cayenne, just seems a good comparison) or X5 to BMW.....then you might be able to make a case for it. However, it probably doesn't make sense for GM to spend the massive amount of money that would be needed to create such drastic differentiation from the Equinox. (Additionally, I'd be curious to see the actual spring and damper rates, shock, and anti-roll bar specs between the Equinox "FE1" and the Torrent "FE2" to see what the REAL difference is. I'd bet the actual difference between the two suspension setups is very marginal, or even none. GM has been known to use the "FE1, FE2, FE3" suspension designations liberally for marketing terms. I know from my Buick days......what might have been an "FE3" or more commonly known as "Gran Touring Suspension" setup for a particular Buick was labled "FE1" or "base" for a Pontiac.....with no actual differences in the suspension tuning.....say LeSabre to Bonneville, etc.)

(Edit: Sorry I missed that Enzl already addressed this.) GAWD you are TOTALLY missing the POINT! If Camry fleets are only 8%, then that means 92% of the people that buy a Camry.....choose to buy a Camry!!!!!! If Grand Prix is still up around 75%, that means only a 1/4 of the people in a Grand Prix actually chose to buy one themselves. I'd say, in comparison, that IS "dire and dreadful."

This is fun news! Let's just hope the car is as communicative in feel as the acclaimed Bimmers.......as we all know it's one thing to have a fast lap, another to be enjoyable while achieving it. Considering the good response we've gotten already on the regular CTS, I have high hopes. The only area they will have a real challenge with is the 6-speed manual action. The one in the normal CTS has been panned pretty much as not very enjoyable to use....and if they use the Tremec in the V-Series, that one could be a bigger challenge even. (The 6-speed auto ought to match up nicely though.)

Devil's advocate is fine. But Camry fleet/rental sales are a fraction of Grand Prix's and G6's.......(at least they were last time I saw figures.) My whole point in mentioning that is because there are way more retail consumers choosing to purchase, say for example, a Camry.....than there is G6, Grand Prix, et al. I'm not saying they are rabid "Camry fans" like there maybe be rabid "Pontiac" fans.....but clearly a lot fewer consumers are choosing to make a Pontiac their next vehicle purchase. (Thank god for G8. I just wish the rest of the lineup was as consistent and competitive.)

Another interesting note I found out while getting prepped to go to work at the Caddy store in Vegas is.......DTS really isn't considered a "flagship" Caddy, or really a "premium" Caddy. The VAST majority of the DTSs that the stores sell are the cars with MSRPs from between $46K - $50K......not that far off from the CTSs that they now sell (their best-selling CTS is in the $43K - $46K range. "Platinums" and loaded "Performance" variants simply don't sell. In general, People won't pay $55K + for a DTS. They don't see the value. Which is a shame because those two variants are probably the most attractive DTSs. It's just simply not a flagship for the brand.

I think you about have it......however, I believe the Deville shared the Park Avenue platform.....and the Seville was related to the Bonne/LeS/Aurora (just trying to remember from my Buick days.) Also, the latest-gen PA shared alot with the Aurora/Rivera.....so much that I think it could almost be lumped in with them. And you are right. As opposed to the late-80's FWD big cars (C- and H-Bodies) all of these cars I believe belong more strongly to the G-Platform as a whole.

It kinda depends what you are looking for. There seems to be about a $5K difference between comparably-equipped 1- and 3-Series coupes......the 3-Series sedan has a bit less of a difference. C&D had a good point....if you don't want the twin-turbo power, you can upgrade from a 135i to a 328i Coupe for not much money at all. However, if what you want is the power in the lightest and smallest package, the 1-Series is worth it. I priced two almost-fully-loaded coupes out (the way I'd order them)......and the 1-Series was MSRP $44,650, while the 3-Series was MSRP $49,025.....a difference of around $4,500....not insignificant. I think the 3-er is a prettier coupe....but I also like the 1-er's "bulldog" looks and stance. Everything else, equipment-wise and powertrain-wise is identical. So I'd have to really want the prettier look of the 3-er to spend the almost-$5K more. (Since it's just me usually in the car, the lack of rear-seat and trunk roominess in the 1-er isn't a big deal at all to me.) Or another way to look at it is.....if a convertible is desirable (and to me it is) you can have the 135i Convertible, similarly-equipped, for the price of the 3-Series Coupe. AND, the 1-series convertible does look better to me with the top up (and down) than the 1-series coupe. So there's another option........

Yeah, I know.......but my whole thing is.....just HOW MANY of them truly are there? When you take ALL of Pontiac's fleet/rental sales from all of their products out of the equation, how big of a division do we really have? How many consumers are truly "Pontiac fans?" How many of them purchased a Pontiac cause they truly DESIRED it, versus the people that bought one because they got $5,000 off on one (like NOS' parents did on a G5...?) I think we end up talking about a drop-in-the-bucket......

He said Torrent is "okay" and a "sporty SUV."

What just exactly makes a Torrent ANY more sporting than an Equinox? Huh? They share engines, transmissions, suspension and chassis, styling, interior......they are basically the same minus a few badges and extremely minor trim changes. Torrent isn't anywhere near "sporty"....not even in GXP trim.

YEARS ago, GM had the right idea.....it may have been when Lutz first came on board. Cadillac was to move slightly upmarket to tackle A-tier germans such as BMW and Mercedes-Benz, including a range-topping sedan to compete with the 7 and S.......leaving Buick to morph more into an "American" Lexus....focusing on refinement, quietness, and an ability to coddle it's passengers......but with way more quality in the driving feel and interior environment than what Buicks in the past offered up. In effect, pick up where Cadillac left off years ago before they started venturing into Catera and CTS territory. We've discussed this here before. It could have worked....IF GM had devoted the development and product planning appropriately. We can all argue whether they had the money, or even platforms to do it....but I think the theory IS sound at least...... Where does this leave Chevy? In relatively the same position......with Pontiac hell-bent on affordable driving enjoyment....and not just rebadged Chevys. It's one thing to offer a G6, restyled from the prev-gen Malibu, but the ending result offered yes, a different look, but no more performance, handling, or any other quality to separate it from the Malibu. G6 is basically the exact same car underneath. You can't make a performance division on looks alone. G6 should have had some serious, tangible increases in performance and handling to go along with it's slinkier looks.

To me, the G6 just simply seems like a generation removed from the Malibu and AURA (which it is, I guess.) Granted I haven't driven a new Malibu yet, but when you read the reviews that car has gotten, it seems to offer a driving experience quite a bit above that of the G6. I've been sorely disappointed in every G6 I've had as a rental to drive. AND, all of them have been V6 powered and one was even a then-GTP equipped with the 3.9L. Even the top GTP clomped and banged over rough road, but didn't really seem to offer any handling advantages for it's rough ride. I still vividly remember the one I had in Portland, Oregon. Take it around an on-ramp and the car, even with the GTP tires/suspension, rolled over and understeered severely. Old-school GM suspension tuning/damping.....stiff, hard ride, but mushy handling. Powertrain refinement was also lacking. To me, it just feels GM-old-style to me compared to just about every other midsize sedan I've been in over the last couple of years. That's my bitch overall with G6.....it's lack of competitiveness in the marketplace. Now that aside, I still think it's an attractive car....and center-stack and center-console aside, I don't have any bitches about the interior actually. G6 needs to feel like a little-brother to the G8 (regardless of drive wheels)....but the current one just seems 180-degrees instead.

Original Aurora and Riviera were both G-bodies.......but you know, I'm not as sure about the 2nd-gen Aurora.....but I think it was still on the G-body.....?

The "hooch?" Huh? Actually not THAT much......but it's been fun

You're a good man, Charlie Brown......

Did you just say "big mouth?" Hmmm....don't tempt my tummy with the taste o' nuts 'n honey...... (I'm sorry....I've had some wine...and I'm just having WAY too much fun messin' with you......thanks for bein' a good sport...LOL, LOL)

You're wearing the bridal gown.....not me.....

That's okay....you are three hours ahead of me. I'll just make sure to put some outrageous posts on here....oh say...in an hour or two....so you'll have them to look forward to when you wake up!

C'mon you HAVE to admit.....Pontiac has been the recipient of some pretty bone-headed product decisions by GM. G5? Gimme a break (and even though it's a sad "rebadge"......not even a turbo "SS" version in sight....for GM's "performance" division.) G6? Where's the performance or excitement over a Malibu or AURA? Torrent? I'm not gonna even go THERE..... We have G8.....and Solstice....(and GM STILL felt it was necessary to f@#k the Solstice and give a version to Saturn....)...... Pontiac would have been a WINNER if proper thought and product development had been focused on say, 10 years ago.

I'm not riled up at all. I just like pushing Camino's buttons.... (j/k guys......LOL)

Speed to market needed to increase dramatically (for years, decades, yadda, yadda)......but never really has..... <Camino...will you marry me?> LOL