The O.C.

Dude....you are WAY too cute to be wasting that mug on CHICKS........ LOL

OK....OK.....for a 1.8L engine, it is more than competitive for it's engine size........but that was never the original point!!!!! The discussion began with the concern that the Astra is underpowered relative to it's competition. It just seems like you are being SO obstinate that you can't even acknowledge MY point about OUR market......and instead, since you are too stubborn to acknowledge it and have a reasonable conversation with me about OUR market.....you just keep spouting your position relative to the Astra's 1.8L without even trying to see the point I'm trying to make. You don't see me debating the realities of YOUR market. That's because I already understand how it's different over there and I acknowledge that. <Huff>.....AGAIN....the consumer in the marketplace doesn't necessarily shop competitive vehicles with the same engine size alone. They compare vehicles in a similar price- and-size range. AGAIN OUR MARKET IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FROM YOURS. Frankly I give you enough credit to realize that....but your posts keep indicating that you really don't. It is ENTIRELY logical to compare, for one example, a Rabbit with a 2.5L engine to an Astra with a 1.8L engine. Know why? They are both in the $16- to $17K range (base prices), compete in the same market segment, and are even dimensionally very similar. THEY ARE COMPETING FOR THE VERY SAME CONSUMERS. The end result? The VW is way faster and more responsive over the entire driving spectrum......and for that performance, you give up 2mpg (in C&D's test) to the Astra. Many people over here would rather get 22mpg in a more powerful and responsive Rabbit than they would get 24mpg in the sluggish Astra. AND that performance difference IS something that can be felt in normal day-to-day driving....especially if you hook automatics to them....thanks to the Rabbit's greater low-end torque. I'm not debating 1.8L to 1.8L. I'm trying to get you to look at it from a consumer/market perspective. But you have to realize that our market is vastly different. We DON'T have the choice in powertrains in our cars that you do over there. It's also NOT uncommon for consumers over here to comparison shop, say a 4-cylinder Asian midsize sedan to a V6-powered GM midsize sedan......specifically because GM for many years offered V6 power for 4-cylinder prices....and many consumers responded to that favorably. Can you acknowledge or debate with me even a fraction of the point I'm trying to make about the Astra and it's engine....in our market? Can you?

When you have a car that runs on the track as slow as the Astra does compared to the competition, it DOES make a difference in even part-throttle acceleration. You don't have to "floor" a car all the time to feel a lack of performance. As C&D said....."The 1.8-liter is about as wimpy as its 138hp rating would suggest, strolling to 60mph in 9.3sec on the way to a last-place finish in the quarter-mile at 17.1secs at 82mph." In comparison, in C&D's original road-test of the Chevrolet Cobalt (4-05) with an automatic, the larger and torquier 2.2L Ecotec pulled it to 60mph in 8.4secs....again...with an automatic. Curb weight was actually slightly higher on the Cobalt than the Astra just tested. That's almost a full second faster than the Astra with a 5-speed manual. (EDIT: Also checked.....C&D ran a G5 with the larger 2.4L Ecotec and an automatic....and it went 0-60 in only 7.5secs...! And, they recently tested another Cobalt with the 2.4L and a 5-speed manual......7.1secs from 0-60. And you wonder why we over here all think the Astra is underpowered?) In that 8-car comparo, (Focus SE, Lancer GTS, Astra XR, Scion xD, Impreza 2.5i, Suzuki SX4 Sport, Corolla, Rabbit S) the Astra was decidedly mid-pack in terms of curb weight.....and in the 5-60mph race, (more accurately reflects how a normal consumer/owner might experience low-end engine performance due to a lack of "jack-rabbit" starts by popping the clutch, etc.) the average 5-60mph time was 8.9secs. The Astra was a 1/2sec off that time at 9.4secs. Even so, C&D commented that the Astra "...strikes a good compromise between frugality and fun." Okay enough on this subject.....

'Bloke.....again you are TOTALLY missing the point. I agree with most of what you say.....but on this topic, the fact-of-the-matter is......the Astra is underpowered for this market.....compared to it's competition. There's no spin against that. Across the pond, I'm sure it's just fine. But you KEEP referring to the Astra's performance over there.....but keep ignoring what we are trying to tell you about the market here...and the competition that Astra is going up against in order to earn consumers' hard-earned money. But, as you and many others (me included) have said, the market over there is significantly different than the market here......and that extends to what consumers perceive as "acceptable" performance in their compact cars. Again.....for emphasis......it may be (more-than) competitive in Europe......but Astra's performance, over here, offers a significant handicap compared to it's competition. Even compact-car buyers care about performance. One reason my friend chose the Rabbit, was the gutsy performance of it's big 2.5L 5-cylinder compared to it's similar competitors. And, from his standpoint, he is very happy with his mid-20's fuel economy (he came out of an X5 SUV.)

Yeah....it's funny.....most of the ideas on here about how to "fix" GM, even the ones I don't agree with, are more coherent and forward-thinking than what we've seen from the high-powered (and high-PAID) execs running this company!

First of all, my whole POINT is that there are not different "flavors" between the two cars....... Secondly, the Camry and ES are far- and-away much more differentiated than Malibu and AURA. COMPLETELY different interiors.....upscale materials, switchgear, gauges, etc. in the Lexus.....and most importantly.....the differences between brand positioning. Toyota = basic. Lexus = luxury. Different buyers too. Significantly different pricing structures. Different premium options for the Lexus. Malibu and AURA effectively compete against each other.

You know it's funny........moderate the dripping sarcasm just a tad.....and you have effectively spelled out the entire General Motors situation in perfect detail........unfortunately.....

Well, they both have far greater traffic problems then what most people in this country are accustomed to. And btw.....our woes don't end on the weekend.....rush-hour-like jams occur on Saturdays and Sundays around here with almost the same frequency as they do during the week. And like London, there are significant areas around southern California that don't have a rush-hour.....they are jammed all day long....regardless of time of day. I haven't lived in London, but spent over a week in, around, and about London (I didn't just stay in the city around the tourist areas) and yes found bad traffic.....but nothing inconsistent with what I deal with here on a day-to-day basis. BUT, I haven't been there since the C-Charge so I can't comment on how that has affected things. My best friend is from GB and pretty much echos my sentiments on traffic there versus here. Although, he will admit, if anything, the WAY better driving habits over there probably help you as much as our poor driving habits here hinder us when it comes to keeping snarled traffic moving......

Everyone, including the writers of the article, are forgetting the real point of the SMART in the U.S.A. Relatively-speaking, for the numbers they are planning on selling, I STILL predict that this car will be a success. People won't buy it for the fuel economy, or how well it fits within a tight city core (I'm amazed how many I've already seen out here in spread-out Southern California.) What they will buy it for is the sheer novelty factor......for right, or for wrong. How long will that novelty factor keep sales alive? That's the question yet to be answered. But it's hard to speculate because there has never been a car like this sold over here in this market. Yes....the mileage sucks relative to what you could get in a Fit, Yaris, or some other comparable subcompact. And yes, the transmission is pure junk. Frankly I'm surprised the car has soldiered on as long as it has in Europe with such a crap transmission. With a 3-pedal 5-speed manual, this car would most definitely be way more enjoyable to drive....quicker....and most likely more fuel-efficient. But we've seen in this market that people don't always make the most rational of choices when it comes to purchasing an automobile. In one sense, the SMART is no less rational than the housewife with one kid that drives a Suburban or Excursion....or any other myriad of large SUVs......

Well, from my understanding, from all my studying of the European mags.....it seams that Skoda does indeed pull in a lower clientele than VW.....(which is in turn positioned a bit higher in the market over there than it is here.) Seat has the most unique styling (for right or for wrong) of the three....and has managed to carry that over to the vast majority of it's lineup. It's Cupra models are also nicely differentiated by the VW GT and GTi models with a seemingly more "raw" nature.... Just my observations..... Perhaps 'Bloke can provide some insights since he's from over there?

How are Malibu and AURA fundamentally any different? They are priced similarly.....share the same powertrains.......similar if not the same ride-and-handling........share key interior features and details like seats, door panels, center stack controls.....and even the exterior styling, while different, both echo each other with conservative, yet handsome lines. One can't be called "more luxurious" or "upscale" than the other.....they share interior treatments such as similar leathers and cloths....woodgrain trims....metallic trims.....and one can't be called "sportier" or more "European" because mag tests show similar perfromance between the two. Malibu is about perfect for the Chevrolet lineup. How does AURA serve the Saturn lineup any differently? How does it serve the overall GM lineup any differently?

You know....I don't know if the Mexico plants have any sort of union or not.....but definitely a good point and one that I didn't even think of.....

Yeah....that's also a "Viper." I'm sure GM knows the importance of driving harmonics with this car. It's going up against some VERY impressive competition......the M3 and M5, the AMG products, the Audi S- and RS-models. I wonder how the M5 drives with the newly optional 6-speed manual transmission? I seem to remember VERY favorable reviews in the rags other than the fact that you couldn't properly disable the stability-control on traditional manual models (although I've heard they have now corrected that.) I bet in reality.....the CTS-v with the 6-speed automatic tranny will be the car to have. (Not for me, I'd still get a traditional manual.) The AMGs are getting great reviews for their responsive 7-speed auto, and they've just introduced the new 7-speed torque-converter-less tranny in the new SL. Also, the Caddy will upstage the jerky SMG in the BMW. (Would be hot if GM were to introduce this car with a DSG.....??)

"Tigger?" You are right......(mostly....we can assume, don't know if Tiggers will need to be discounted at all or not)......that typically you can get far greater discounts and rebates on many GM products than you can many other products.

I agree with just about all of your post. But...."wait and see?" Griffon said we won't see a Pontiac Alpha car until 2013 at the earliest. (And who knows if he's even remotely correct that Pontiac will get an Alpha....and if it will even reach showrooms before or after 2013.....) It's but we all know that we needed this "new" Pontiac lineup about 2 years ago....not five more years from now. But of course, this is typical GM modus operendi. The scary question is......and let's make this a far greater issue than Pontiac.....can any division last another 4-5 years before they have a competitive product lineup? I don't know that Buick's in any better position! Hopefully Invicta will be all it's promised.....let's just DAMN hope it's not like another rebadged Malibu/AURA. And where does GMC's future lie.....with all the trends we are seeing in trucks and SUVs?

Would you pay $30K for an AWD, sunroof'd Tiguan with the 2.0T.......or $28.5K for a comparably-equipped Equinox? (I know which one I'd pick......and it's not the one with the Chinese pushrod V6..........)

Hence again my statement that anything past G8 and Solstice is 100% conjecture at this point. "What's the G6 replacement gonna be like? Will it be RWD or FWD? Will the next G5 be another rebaged Cobalt?" Etc, etc.. You may have one BPG distribution channel.....but you are going to still have to build and enhance three separate images/marketing messages/brand perceptions.......one for performance, one for luxury, and one for trucks/SUVs. You may have less models per brand, but you still have three brands. Pontiac is going to need ALL the help they can get with their (reduced) product line. One-third the marketing/development money won't cut it......GM can't do that.

.....yet are nicely differentiated from their VW and Audi cousins......unlike Cobalt/G5, Malibu/AURA, etc., etc.

Did you just say 20-frickin'-13....?? You've GOT to be kidding me......

It's all relative Reg.....and neither you are right....nor is 'Bloke. Europe isn't all "winding two lanes" either......I've experienced many a U.S.-freeway-type cluster of roads both in GB and mainland Europe. And if anything, many of our traffic woes over HERE are worse than what you find over there......I spent over a week in London and was amazed at how, even at rush hour, London has nothing that can compare to Los Angeles traffic. Oh sure it gets bad.....no doubt about it......but listening to the Britons, you'd think they have the worst traffic in the world. Apparently not many of them have spent too much time in southern California.....LOL So....like I said....it's not the roads, or the cities, or any of that sort of stuff. It's simply the culture....what we grew up on....what our parents grew up on....what we are used to....that's what we've all gravitated to over the years. Small cars here WOULD work quite well.....if we could get ourselves to give them a chance. Additionally, large cars and SUVs over there wouldn't be nearly as difficult to live with as Europeans would have you think (other than gas prices.)

I'll tell you the bigger problem.....is what does SATURN stand for? Let's say Pontiac is the epitomy of "We Build Excitement" for General Motors. Well then.....how do you justify a SKY that is almost identical, with identical performance and driving feel? How do you justify an AURA that runs rings around it's (older-platform) sister-mate the G6? If Pontiac is the "excitement" or "performance" division......Chevy is the "basic" division......and Buick is "American luxury".....and Cadillac chases the high-end imports.....where does that leave Saturn? Don't tell me Saturn is for the import-intender. That's bullcrap. Because today, I don't care if you are Chevy or whatever.....if you don't build cars that appeal to import consumers (like the Malibu apparently does) then you are heading down a slippery slope to nowhere. The concept of a domestic car-company/division existing simply to attract import-buyers is about 20 years too old. Saturn.....really.....has NO identity.

Uh....because....transplants building cars over here has had a significant impact on the automotive industry......? Or are you so insular and self-absorbed with General Motors that you haven't had any interest on what's been happening over the last, oh, 20 years.....outside GM? Do you have ANY idea what the "real world" is like out there in regards to our industry and what's happening? Do you have ANY idea why GM's market share has sunk to ~ 20%? Do you have ANY idea about any of the contributing factors leading to the very struggle your company is fighting? Have you EVER worked for another company than General Motors? Or have you ever worked in <gasp> another industry from the auto industry? Or have you had that "union, line-worker" job your entire career? I'm not dissing the "union, line-worker" job/career at all.......or dissing you......but there's a whole 'nuther world out there than what exists past your 8-5 day (or whatever shift you work) or my 8-5 day. I wonder if your outlook on this entire situation is something that's way more widespread than I had feared......keeping our heads buried in the sand won't do us a lick of good....... The more knowledgeable about the industry that we all are, can only mean better for our company.....

It really begs the question, though, of how the Transplants are seemingly doing so well......without unionized workers......

Hey bud....nice choice in a car! I'm liking the Rabbit more-and-more these days....... My friend just traded in his X5 3.0i for a Rabbit 3-door! One day last week, after spending ~ $100 to fill up his X5, he just got pissed.....drove to the VW dealer straight from the gas station....and just traded in his BMW.....LOL He got a black/black Rabbit 3-door, 6-speed auto, with upgraded 17-inch alloys....and I think WITH tax, title, license, he was out-the-door for about $20K....! I saw it for the first time last night, and it's a real looker.....just a nicely-finished car....inside and outside. He's thrilled with it......likes the power from the 2.5L engine......and says he's averaging around 26-27mpg in mixed driving. And says how he likes the "germanic" feel to the chassis/suspension compared to, say, his friend that just got a new Honda Civic 4-door.

I spent 11 years "there." I've also spent almost 10 years (post-GM) working in other sectors of the auto industry.....and I've NEVER, ever encountered anything like the UAW. Nothing against you, because I know nothing about you....other than what you may post on here. But while in my 11 years I never "worked a full shift at an assembly plant" alot of my time at GM in Michigan put me hand-in-hand with the UAW in many different situations....and it's simply scary the detrimental effect the union had on the overall culture of the company. Your last post, that I quoted, brought back WAY too many bad memories for me......and makes me wonder if GM will EVER overcome their challenges while this kind of mindset remains in a vast majority of their workers. I could give many examples....but don't feel dredging up all that again on here..... I just think (as many people have stated) that a dramatic shift in the "relationship" (if you will) between GM and it's workers is going to have to take place before the company will ever fully recover. The industry today is just a minor shadow of what it used to be 20, 30, even 40 years ago......but GM's relationship with the union hasn't matured at the same level (if at all.)