The O.C.

The Dodge Caliber SE in the comparo, and that I mentioned above, was a 1.8L L4 with 148hp.

I've driven more cars than you could ever imagine (in the U.S.), so don't even think of going there. You KEEP IGNORING MY WHOLE POINT THAT THESE CARS ARE ALL FIGHTING FOR CONSUMERS IN THIS MARKET REGARDLESS OF WHETHER ONE HAS A 1.8L, A 2.0L, OR A 2.5L.....people over here don't buy cars simply based upon what the litre-size of the engine is. They don't buy them that way, and they don't necessarily compare them that way. And YES, I put that all in caps for emphasis. And NO, the discussion was not a 1.8L in a C-segment car.......the discussion WAS is the 1.8L in the Astra, IN THE U.S., underpowered or not relative to it's competition in the market (which comprises of cars with 1.8L, 2.0L, 2.2L, and yes, 2.5L.) The answer is, seemingly, YES....it is underpowered. That doesn't make it unacceptable, necessarily, but it is down on power and performance compared to the VERY cars (and their bigger engines) that consumers in this market are test-driving against it. Of course you most certainly aren't "ignorant", but you're acting like it in regards to the realities of the market here, because you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge (whether you do agree or not) the point I've been trying to make. People over here usually shop either price, or market segment (subcompact, compact, midsize, fullsize.) They don't shop "1.8Litre cars" or "2.0Litre cars" or whatever. Do you GET that...? The answer could be something like this......"Yes, O.C., I understand that consumers in your market compare vehicles of like price and size and it is common for those vehicles to potentially have different sized engines with different combinations of power and fuel economy. But over here in Europe, because of the much larger availability of engine sizes, comparison shopping tends to gravitate towards models with similar engine sizes and here, the Astra 1.8L is very comparable to other 1.8L cars that consumers may be shopping" (I feel like I'm speaking into a bottomless pit......)

Welcome to the site!

All the Lambdas basically share their greenhouses and body panels from the A- to the D-pillars. Enclave and Traverse share an uptick in the rear side windows that Acadia and Outlook don't. Interiors are differentiated but share all major componentry.....seats....etc. Powertrains are shared across the board (with the exception of single-exhaust versions of the 3.6L on the Outlook and Traverse.) According to GM, they even all share the same suspension tuning (Buick included.) I'll compromise and say that they are somewhere between badge engineering and true shared architecture. Even the W-bodies, as old as they are, are less badge-engineered than the Lambdas. (I'm not criticizing the Lambdas necessarily.....just pointing it out.)

Hence the Cobalt SS (non-super- or-turbo'd) with the 2.4L and 5-speed manual went 0-60 in 7.1secs in C&D's test.........I'm not sure what a 5-speed 2.2L does, but C&D got an automatic (power-sapping 4-speed at THAT) from 0-60 in only 8.4secs.....still significantly quicker that the Astra 5-speed.

Ahhhh....but MY Citation had the 2.8L V6 with 115hp.....!!!! It had the "rally" wheels and whitewalls. The first thing I did is flip the whitewalls inside-out...and black-spraypaint the whitewalls so you couldn't see them from underneath the car..... It was gold, with the beige non-split bench seat, with a column shifter. And don't forget those innovative vertical radio and HVAC controls!!!!!!

Just for comparison: (Caliber numbers from 5-06 comparo) Dodge Caliber SE 3,000lbs curb weight 0-60 9.7secs, 0-100 30.6secs C/D test mpg - 28mpg Saturn Astra XR 2,880 curb weight 0-60 9.3secs, 0-100 28.7secs C/D test mpg - 24mpg

Why do you keep MISSING THE POINT? HOW can you say they are not "direct rivals" and that you can't make any sort of accurate comparisons? That's ingorant...... Those cars listed above ALL compete for the SAME consumers in the same market segment. They ARE DIRECT RIVALS.....regardless of engine configuration. Once again......for the purposes of THIS discussion, Europe is irrelevant. We are talking about the U.S. market and the Astra's competitiveness in the U.S. market.

Lexus ES/Camry is not a badge job. TSX/Euro Accord is....but not really in this market since the Euro Accord is not sold here.

Even the Lambdas, as much as I like them, are badge jobs. So are the GMT-900s.

They did....it was called the 1.8T....and had 150hp. Why they abandoned that variant as a less-expensive alternative to the new 2.0T, I'll never know.....

Saturn was the wrong thing.....done for exactly for the right reason. It truly was a cultural shift from the "same-ole, same-ole" at GM. I knew lots of people that went to Saturn to work when it was formed....the culture was an incredible, and cherished change from what the rest of us dealt with. It was a different philsophy in assembly plants.....it was a different philosophy on how to sell cars......it was a cult! (Remember the Saturn Reunion that took place in Spring Hill with ALL those owners driving their Saturns to the plant?) There were two big crimes in this soap opera. 1) The biggest crime was that GM didn't see that all the cultural changes they instilled in the new Saturn Corporation and it's products......were the cultural changes that needed to happen to the entire damn General Motors Corporation! 2) The second biggest crime was.....okay....since they went and invested the money.....and we have Saturn with us today......way back then they needed to keep their focus on the brand and on the product and build upon what they started. But they didn't do that. As we all know, they let it flounder. The day they folded Saturn back into the General Motors portfolio (it was a separate corporation, wholly owned by GM.....very different than the GM "divisions" of that day) is the day the culture-shift named "Saturn", died, effectively.

See my post above. I'm one of the few, I think, that thought the original SL cars were TERRIFIC. Sure they had a few faults, but overall, they were smart-styled, well-driving (engine noise aside) little cars that had a true import feel to them in the driving and the interior. It was the lack of follow-up that really hurt them. The original SL cars would have made WONDERFUL little Chevrolets......?????? And ironic that today, the brand that was supposed to appeal to import consumers with such a "different" type of domestic car......has a lineup now shared exclusively with mainstream GM products! (Albeit the best mainstream GM products we've ever seen.)

It's funny. The whole reason Saturn was created.....was to attract import consumers back to the GM family. Therefore, back in the 80's, as Saturn was being created and developed, General Motors OBVIOUSLY KNEW what was happening in the marketplace. That people were gravitating more-and-more toward import-type cars. So, it's ironic that they spent ALL that money on developing Saturn......and kept pouring money into pickups and the fast-growing SUV side of the business.......instead of saving all that Saturn money and putting it towards making their OWN cars import-competitive.......like.....they are now trying to do!

My buddy has the same combo.....says he's averaging about 26-27mpg (which I was pleasantly surprised by....) I don't figure that's too bad for a auto attached to a big 2.5L engine with 170hp.....

Hell....I'm "only" 38 years old, and I've seen a massive cultural shift in the United States even in my lifetime. Talking about teenagers today......compared to when I was a teenager in the mid-80's.......I cannot believe the sense of entitlement that today's kids feel. It's almost humorous. Like you said 'Biz.....the iPods, the cell phones (not just cell phones, but "fancy" cell phones), the video games, the laptops, time spent on the internet, time NOT spent outdoors being active, the drugs, the alcohol, the CARS that kids feel they deserve to drive. It's all gone quite a bit overboard. And I don't so much blame the kids these days as I blame the parents. I think the parents are fundamentally where the cultural shift has taken place. Parents seem to be more absorbed with being "cool" to their kids...and being their kids "friends"...and not "upsetting" their kids than they are about being actual "Parents." I seem to remember 10-15 years ago the rise of the "Time Out" replacing a good ole fashioned whack on the ass as "proper and appropriate" punishment. WTF? A Time Out? Are you friggin' kidding me? And your kid acts up in the grocery store? You can't even spank 'em or else someone will try to turn you into child-protective-services! That's just messed up man. When I was a kid, if I acted up, I got smacked on the ass or the face even. But you know what? Whatever I did....I didn't do it again! Punishment for me was something to fear....and an incentive to do as I was told, and not act up. You think I'd have been worried about a "Time Out?" LOL, LOL. Well, I ended up growing up quite well-adjusted....no lasting after-effects from being spanked, for god's sake. Geez. I grew up as a teenager in upscale suburbs of Oklahoma City and Dallas. My parents made good money. We lived in a big house. I was always well-provided for. But you know what? My first car wasn't a BMW, or an Acura, or a Mercedes-Benz given to me by my parents. They gave me the "leftover" 1980 Chevrolet Citation hatchback (my first love of GM!!!!) and they told me that, yes, they were "giving" me the car, but I had to maintain it from that point on.....and I had to learn about taking care of a car. And if I got to the point where I could sell it myself, and buy myself a newer car, then I could do that on my own. Today, kids (and their parents) are more concerned that the kids "fit in" with their peers in school. Kids don't learn "life lessons" today. Kids don't know how to act as adults in the real world facing real challenges. And as a result, as the kids of the last decade or so get out there, culturally, they struggle. These are the kids today that are going to be running our country. Scary. Sorry to take the thread off-course....but 'Biz had a good point and I really felt I wanted to elaborate.

OK....now you are contradicting yourself. You just said a few posts back....something along the lines of "0-60s being quicker on the track, but consumers not noticing a difference in everyday driving."

Okay then.....explain to me why they perform so much better than the Astra does....!

Gee....consumers do it EVERY day.....and guess what? They vote with their checkbooks......

LOL.....and he drives a Bimmer....... Hey.....what about GMPartsGirl? She's got it workin'....! Not bad for an Oklahoma chick......(j/k GMPartsGirl)

The scary thing is......just how much nicer the Astra is than the Cobalt.....!!!!!!! (Although I'm mighty tempted by the new Turbo SS....)

I think we are all Astra fans here. But it is underpowered for it's market. And BTW....I'm not saying I wouldn't buy one! Engine performance is CERTAINLY not the only thing I look for......in fact, I'd take the Astra and its 1.8L over the Cobalt 2.2L or 2.4L JUST so I could have such a WAY better interior alone!

Ugh.....a prime example of what I miss when I don't go on the "Pictures" thread for a long time....... JC's got it workin'........ (DAMN why can't I be in my 20's again?)

.....the other 25% are flirting with Nick and Turbo....... Oh yeah.....and NOS......

Hmmmm..... Uhhhh..... PCS.......? I think I need to stop arguing with you anymore..........