The O.C.

Fly, really....no....not even THOSE people. They pay thousands over MSRP because they want the car and it's in high demand.....whether it's for fuel economy, image, whatever.....it's supply and demand. There's many people (out here at least) that pay thousands over for C6 ragtops......because demand is higher out here and supply is lower....people want the Corvette....so they pay.... Same thing with M5, etc. Who's to say that their reasons for paying thousands over sticker for a C6 ragtop or an M5 are any more OR less important than that Prius buyer that spends thousands over...?

I think you are wrong.....if I remember correctly, Evok stated the supplier industry average was $11-$12/hour.....and if ANYONE is an industry insider, it's Evok. Delphi came in with $9/hour I believe.....and Evok thinks that Delphi would probably settle at $15/hour....but not a penny more.....

That's why, like Evok said, this Delphi/UAW battle is pivotal in shaping the future of U.S. domestic automobile manufacturing. U.S. manufacturers and suppliers simply cannot continue business pacifying their unions with outrageous wages and benefits, etc. The marketplace simply demands that big changes take place. Rest assured.....the UAW WILL compromise....and WILL fall in line with Delphi's (and later...GM, and Ford's) demands.....whether they like it or not. No one is denying that forcing THAT big of a pay cut will severly impact the quality of life of those UAW workers.....but it's something that HAS to happen....or the Big3 and their suppliers such as Delphi and Visteon are NO MORE. They WILL compromise....or there will be no more UAW. Rest assured the companies will survive. They will do what it takes to be competitive.....and it WILL get extremely bloody.

OK! OK! So it doesn't get 60mpg..... Look.....the Prius is not the big bastard everyone is making it out to be...... You have to compare a Prius to a Camry. Check out the interior EPA figures....the Prius is more CAMRY-sized than it is Corolla-sized.....especially in luggage/trunk capacity. For someone looking for that size car, the Prius' realistic 40-45mpg fuel economy is still great....and much better than what you'll average in a Camry L4. If you look at it that way, the Prius CAN make much more sense. Some figures.......for a fully-loaded Prius (leather, nav, xenons, etc.) versus a fully-loaded Camry XLE 4cyl (leather, nav, etc.) MSRP - Prius = $29,195 - Camry = $26,555 EPA Passenger Volume - Camry = 101.8 - Prius = 96.2 - Corolla = 90.3 Trunk Volume - Camry = 16.7 - Prius = 16.1 - Corolla = 13.5 YES....the Prius costs more and you will probably get a much larger discount on the Camry.....but if you like the (albeit strange) style, the fuel economy is a nice touch. No it's not perfect.....but people can't keep trying to infer that Prius-buyers are all "stupid" or drinking the "hybrid kool-aid."

I'm assuming the Liberty will get the wheelbase/rear-end stretch that the Dodge Nitro gets.....giving it some much needed interior room and leaving plenty of showroom space for the smaller Patriot/Compass twins.

It looks much better IMHO. I still don't like it as much as the 2000-2005 model. And I REALLY don't like the 7-series like dash. Somehow, BMW pulls that kind of interior design off better in my opinion. ALSO, BMW has stated that they are moving the shift lever BACK TO THE CENTER CONSOLE! :)

The number of vehicles a manufacturer puts into rental fleets directly affects those models' resale value......mostly due to the dramatically lower prices that the manufacturer buys the vehicles back for at the end of the rental term....and the prices they sell them at the auction to dealers for.

<read sarcasm> ".....but I'm a 35-year old male, and my friends don't put SimCons on their BMWs......only "old" people drive cars with SimCons (simulated convertible top)....so Cadillac's must be for "old" people. I think I'll pass on that CTS or STS....'cause I'm not old and gaudy......." Sarcasm? YES.....but there's alot of truth in that statement. Those kinds of dealer add-ons do nothing but RUIN the decent reputation that Cadillac worked SO hard to build.... There's plenty of other ways to earn profit from dealer after-sales products without resorting to Vogue tires, SimCons, and gaudy paint-stripe applications smacked all over your new CTSs and STSs.

.....LESS horsepower and MORE torque......the MS6 has 274hp to the CX-7's 244hp....

Nah....it is a much more mature design (and I say this in a good way.) It's the same "new" Aveo that was introduced earlier this year.......the orange sedan.....remember?

Press days are Wed and Thurs, January 4 and 5. I think I'm scrounging up a press pass for those days also...!!!! :) Are we still going together when you get back in town? I think Croc is planning on going on the 13th.

Seriously....how many 4cyl imports HAVE you driven? Everyone on here is forgetting that it's not just the torque....it's the whole packaged deal. Every Honda 4cyl I'VE ever driven revs very freely.....and scoots through the RPM band like a hot knife through butter. Cars like this you don't mind using some revs....even if they're hooked to autos..... Plus you have to factor in gear rations......vehicle weight......actual horsepower..... Seems like lots of people on here think that taking an import 4cyl to higher revs is a bad thing.....yeah, most of you are used to GM pushrod V6s so I can understand why you'd take that position....... There are very few import 4cyls that are less-than-impressive.....maybe the Corolla 1.8L....HOWEVER, drive even that car (or a Vibe, etc.) with a manual shift and it's actually pretty peppy....only the auto is a big letdown. Current model Accords, Camrys, Altimas, and Mazda6s with 4cyls and autos are smooth performing, quiet (though Altima growls a bit) and don't really seem to lack ANY performance for day-to-day town or freeway driving. (I've had each, even the Accord, as a rental recently.)

I tried....but it wasn't just me.....most of my peers were car buffs/Buick fans and we all took it to heart... When GM hired the outside company to coordinate it all, that's when the "personal touch" went away.....

Alas Croc.....you and I TOTALLY agree on something! :AH-HA_wink:

I'm afraid flushing it would clog up the toilet.... :lol:

My theory is.....(from a warm-weather climate) $100 is $100. BUT, if the washer fluid was STD on this $39K car, the $100 would make minimal-to-no impact and the feature would be seen as an added benefit (albeit small benefit.) However, when it's on the right side, glaring out at you from the options list, it makes me wonder "why am I paying for that?" No....it's not a deal-breaker......it's just that it doesn't make sense to me why something like that is not standard.....at LEAST on the upmarket versions (CXL and CXS.)

OK enough bickering on the interior plastics..... I can tell you, the black CXS with chrome wheels I looked at had REAL eyeball. I thought the car was gorgeous and I couldn't pull out one bad part of the exterior execution. Too bad the beautiful headlight clusters won't offer xenon lamps. I REALLY think this car has the potential to do VERY well in the marketplace. I'll have to drive it before I can report on the ride and handling, but initial reviews are positive on the CXS. I really hope the CX and CXL aren't too floaty. According to Buick there are three suspension tuning levels....CX and CXL V6 as ONE.....CXL V8 as the SECOND.....and CXS as the THIRD level of tuning. NorthStar power should be adequate. Based upon my driving of an '05 DeVille rental with the same 275hp engine, performance should be decent.....but I hope the CXS has the same, nice, V8 growl and burble that was in the DeVille. However, the DeVille's performance did lack real outright thrill. It had nice pull, but didn't feel that outright fast. I shudder at the thought of the 3800 in this car.....but that's another rant for another time.....

If the 2.3L is as mannerly in the CX-7 as it is in the MazdaSpeed6, it will be a GREAT powertrain combo! After driving the MazdaSpeed6, I liked the power delivery, low-end torque, and performance better than even the V6/5-speed combo I used to run. The added low-end torque will probably make up for the less-powerful 2.3L version....and the 6-speed automatic should provide a nice combination of gear rations to compliment the turbo engine.

Paolino, I agree with you....it IS beautiful in design and ergonomics.....and 10 years ago, I probably didn't think GM could design an interior this nice. That's why it upsets me all the more to see them do everything so NICE and then cheap out in a way that is so noticeable..... And I'm with you.....electroluminecent gauges (a-la Lexus) would be really nice in this car.

Sounds good to me..... Oh....and by the way.....wearing the "cute" signs.....was a JOKE.....

Hey....how come when I type "sh-t" it comes up as "crap?" Who's controlling now what we can type on here? DAMN.....too much P.C'ness going on....

LMFAO....! No crap.....hahahahhah So where are we all meeting at LA on the 13th and at what time, etc...? Did you set this little get-together up? How will we all know each other? Should we wear cute little signs on our chests with our C&G names? :lol:

I know, I know.... But for Buick's top-of-the-line sedan, they should be able to put stuff in there that's competitive with ES330 and Avalon....... Look at ANY $35-$40 sedan out there and give me one that uses that much cheap stuff inside their car.....you just don't find hard stuff on the dash with other makes....at that price.....

No! No! AARRRGGHH....! Below the woodgrain is not squishy.....it's hard and brittle. I'm not talking "hidden" areas of plastic.... I'm talking about the MAIN part of the dash, below the woodgrain, that stretches from the right door panel, around the far right vent, around the center stack, around the steering column, around the far left vent, ending up at the driver-side door. Plus, all along the sides of the console all the way back to the armrest is hard and brittle as well. It feels really cheap...! Although the rest of the interior is top-notch. So everyone's going the 13th??? We can definitely clear this up then. God, Croc...I'm really looking forward to meeting you.....contrary to what others on here may think, you are WAY too much fun to fight with..... B)

I think it (STS) is too close in size to the CTS in real-world terms. Sit inside both and you'll see what I mean. I think the STS is too high-priced....once again considering how competent CTS is. Cheap interior materials don't help. BUT I really think Caddy lost it when they "toned-down" the "edge" styling on the STS. I think the CTS design language is far more successful and far more striking. Also, CTS doesn't have first-class interior materials, but the striking and unusual interior design (which I find quite attractive) kinda makes up for it. CTS seems to be far more comparable and competitive with its competition set (3-series, C-class, TSX, Lexus IS, etc.) than STS is with its competition set (5-series, E-Class, etc.) As far as Lucerne, first of all, I really like the car and think it will do pretty well. However, Navigation has been delayed, there's no power tilt/telescope, 4-speed automatic is outdated, and even though you can't change this as easily, it should be RWD. I know there are more features lacking that others on here have listed in other posts.... Like I said....not to say I don't LIKE those cars, but my liking them and them being leaders in their segments are two different things.