The O.C.

You know I realized that AFTER my post...... They bash on us SO much, I had to get my $0.2 in for all to see on the board.... B)

Bachelor of Science in Sales & Marketing from GMI Engineering & Management Institute (now Kettering University) in good ole' Flint, Michigan.

I'm one that totally DISAGREES. (but no offense to any northerners on here) I've lived both in the Bay Area, (Danville in the East Bay) and in southern California (Aliso Viejo in The O.C.) and I MUCH prefer living down here. Why? Well, first of all....let me say that I LOVE San Francisco....I think it's a world-class city. BUT....... I like the weather in southern California MUCH better. People are WAY nicer and friendlier. (Although people in the Bay Area will try to convince you otherwise.) I've met more friends since moving to The O.C. than anywhere else I've ever lived. Bay Area people ALWAYS rag on L.A. and people in L.A. BUT people down here really NEVER rag on the Bay Area. San Francisco and their residents seem to have a huge inferiority complex with southern California. Let's face it....Los Angeles is the home of our entertainment industry and is a major Pacific Rim city.....and there's over 17million people in the metro area. It's like the "New York" of the west coast. If you live in the 'burbs up in Northern California, there is almost NOTHING to do culture-wise or party-wise....or good-restaurant-wise. You always had to make the drive into San Francisco to do almost anything social. Down here, in The O.C., you don't HAVE to go to L.A. Maybe because we are close to the beach....or there's more population....but there's LOTS more to do here in the 'burbs than in the Bay Area 'burbs. The CAR CULTURE! No city in the U.S., not even San Francisco, can match the awe-inspiring car culture in southern California. It's prettier.....(other than the awe-inspiring beauty of San Francisco ITSELF.) Our mountains are bigger and more majestic, our beaches are way nicer, our cities and suburbs are more distinctive (with the exception, once again, of the CITY of S.F.) even our flora is much more "tropical" (there are not nearly as many palm trees up north for example.) There's just an energy here that northern California totally lacks. I guess that's it.

.....and take a drive down Mulholland Drive....with expansive views of the Valley on one side, and Hollywood and the Ocean on the other side..... I've lived lots of places (MI, NJ, PA, OK, TX, MO).....and nothing can compare with southern California. Not that other places aren't nice....there are lots of nice places in this country....it's just that California really is like living in paradise (if you can afford it that is.... ) The people aren't as different as you think (hey so many of us came from other places anyways) but the culture, the architecture, the geography, the history (yes...really), and the cool, addictive excitement level brought on by the entertainment industry make SoCal unlike any other city in our country. The exotic-ism of it all is what made me fall in love with it. It's been 9 years now...and I can't imagine not being able to live here. I'd miss SO much....

My "Perfect Riv" would be a low-mileage 1985 T-Type Riviera coupe with the 3.8L turbo, blackwall tires, all-metal roof (versus landau roof) in black with the beige leather interior.

You are right....I owned an '89 Coupe with the 5-speed, hidden headlights, and the "shelby" aluminum wheels and "T" package. The dash was really nice....with a GREAT gauge cluster. The dash top was almost luxurious with it's leather-like texture.....but they did manage to warp quite badly with age.....

Croc.....that's right.....'cause I couldn't go on Friday, we didn't get to "hash it out...!" My opinion on recent GM interiors, is that they are starting to get the look, style, ergonomics, and panel fit to compare very favorably with many of the imports. But in the same vein....they seemed to really be cost-cutting on the materials.....setting them back a decade when they've come so far in other areas. Check out Cobalt versus the last Cavalier (yes....really.) The Cobalt has a MUCH more import-oriented design.....with an attractive gauge cluster and overall dashboard design. HOWEVER, the poorly-grained, hard, brittle plastics covering all the dash, center stack, console, and door panels is even cheaper than some of the stuff that used to be in the Cavalier!!! If you get a chance, take a look or feel of the dash top pad that GM used to put in the Cav....it was soft (!) and nicely-grained! Now the REST of the Cav interior was junk.....but SOME of the materials actually seemed better than what's in Cobalt today. The same argument can be used on the current STS versus the old Seville. Nicer, more Lexus-oriented design let down by significantly cheaper interior materials compared to the last-generation SLS/STS. Likewise, Lucerne will NEVER be compared to Lexus in the same breath with all that hard, brittle plastic adorning it's dash and console.

Yeah and the western suburbs are not ALL cookie-cutter master-planned cities.... SoCal suburbs like San Marino, (close to Pasadena,) Bel Aire (close to Beverly Hills,) and beach 'burbs like Laguna Beach, Redondo Beach, and Manhattan Beach are chock full of character. Unfortunately, Aliso Viejo, where I live in The O.C., is total master-planned with tons of cookie-cutter subdivisions. Although it IS expensive here...and manages to be quite beautiful....built up on a hill, perfectly groomed and landscaped, wide, six-lane boulevards, and a "Towne Center" with lots of restaurants and bars, etc. Denver.....Boulder.....young but upscale and trendy. Phoenix......Old Towne Scottsdale.....

Yeah....it's STUPID....especially when GM can develop a car like the C6 Convertible has quite a large and decently-shaped trunk. I HATE folding hard-tops......if I wanted a coupe, I'd buy a coupe. With today's technology in multi-layered soft tops, you really don't lose as much insulation as you used to. My C6 convertible is quiet.....actually quieter than the coupe because you don't have roadnoise coming in from the coupe's hatchback area. My previous BMW 3-series convertible was also really nice and quiet with the top up. Also, I am one that tends to think that a nicely-designed soft top actually LOOKS good.....!

:AH-HA_wink: Of course..... But there are some towns like many of them on the Main Line.....that were really pretty.....and you KNEW they were upscale.

Yeah....Ann Arbor is cool.....but that's the ONLY area I'd even remotely consider living. I don't even find Detroit's upscale suburbs all that nice even......like I spent some time in the Birmingham/Bloomfield Hills area.....and there were some nice shops and stuff in Birmingham, and sure there are nice houses, but the whole area (supposedly one of Detroit's most upscale) had a tired, old, and dated feel to the streets, stores, the area in general. Other areas like Troy, Rochester Hills, etc., were similar. There are middle-class suburbs in southern California that have a much nicer feel, look, and appearance. When I lived in Philadelphia, on the east coast, there were some really nice upscale suburbs that showed how to make old feel expensive, luxurious, and genteel.....not just "old."

I'm a big Triple-7 fan as well.....but before you write off the A340.....remember that the airlines themselves dictate the interior-layout specs with regards to seat-pitch (basically room between your seat and the seat in front of you.) SO....high-capacity airlines might dictate a lower seat-pitch number so they can squeeze in a few extra seats....whereas a company that wants to improve customer satisfaction might decide to forego a few extra revenue-producing seats in order to INCREASE seat-pitch for more comfort (like American Airlines did a few years ago.) Other than perceived "safety-factor" the Triple-7's two engine configuration no longer limits its range. The new (soon-to-be-introduced) 777-200LR just set a world-record for a nonstop flight (not sure the range, it was in my Airways mag that I threw out already) "backwards" from London to Hong Kong (via the Atlantic, then USA, then Pacific.) When the production 777-200LR starts flying, it will most likely rival Airbus' two longest-range flights....utilizing an A340-500 from New York and Los Angeles to Singapore.

Well, since this post looks like it's not ending any time soon, I'll post my RESPONSE and OPINION on Buickman's "Plan" yet once again......in hopes that maybe THIS TIME Buickman will provide constructive debate regarding MY responses to his "20 Points?" Let's see if he provides an intelligent and constructive response...... My responses in BOLD: with his "Points" shortened to save thread space... This whole plan seems to be a Michigan-centric proposal that does next to nothing to really address the major challenges that GM faces….those challenges being over-capacity, excessive costs, lackluster product, and in many cases, a severly-ineffective dealer body. Not much of this plan seems relevant in the “real world” outside of Michigan or the Midwest, nor does it address the challenge of selling, marketing, and promoting GM vehicles to conquest buyers. GM’s problems are far larger than depicted in these twenty points. A RETURN TO GREATNESS Step One: When "The Return" is initially announced, we proclaim the elimination of Destination Charges. · First of all, GM needs revenue……and the destination charges are something that’s acceptable industry-wide. There is no reason to get rid of these charges as long as they are in line with other manufacturer’s charges. To do so will reduce one source of revenue for General Motors. Step Two: Ten days after the original announcement we release the next step, the elimination of mid-year price increases. · Customers neither care or probably realize that mid-year price increases actually take place. GM needs to build value in their products and if you build products that people actually want to buy, then occasional mid-year price adjustments won’t be a factor in GM’s success. Step Three: Announcement of simplified quarterly incentive changes. · Simplified incentives are fine. However, you will ALWAYS have the situation where someone buys a car and the next day the incentive changes. This will happen whether the incentive is monthly OR quarterly. The very NATURE of the retail automotive industry, in fact ANY sales-oriented industry, is that there will be pressure to “buy now” as companies attempt to meet or exceed monthly, quarterly, or yearly objectives. Furthermore, customers will ALWAYS worry what the “deal” will be. It is in our very nature to negotiate. We do that on houses, and we do that on cars. This is NOT a GM-only fact of life. Furthermore, even if GM WERE to take this step and reduce the “urgency” of the sale, other auto competitors will NOT….and therefore, their existing sense of “urgency” will give them more powerful momentum. Step Four: Destination Detroit is move number four. In this announcement we explain our decision to bring all future award winning dealers and salespeople to Detroit as their reward for a job well done. · If you are trying to motivate dealers and salespeople, I’m sorry….but a trip to Detroit is NOT going to do it. Hometown pride is great and admirable but it’s a fact of life that Detroit is NOT a leisure or entertainment destination and trying to convince dealers and salespeople to work harder with “Detroit” as a reward will be fruitless at best. I like the idea about a trip to the proving grounds, but in this case, a trip to the Phoenix Proving Grounds would be much more enticing with all the attractions, spas, resorts, and golfing of the Phoenix/Scottsdale area. The expenses saved from executives NOT traveling for this meeting would be minimal and would not strongly impact GM’s bottom line. Step Five: Home Deliveries. We announce an effort of working with our dealers to bring the customer the vehicle of their choice, directly to their place of employment, or residence. · With every “docs-out” or “home” delivery you do, you take profit opportunities AWAY from the dealership, primarily in the finance department. Maybe home deliveries would be more popular in Michigan, where so many retail customers ARE GM employees….and for them, buying a car is not as big of a deal. In fact, when most GM employees buy multiple cars in a year, and work in the industry, they don’t “need” to take delivery at the dealership. This is most assuredly not the case in the rest of the country. Additionally, customers STILL need to come TO the dealership to shop and negotiate. And in many areas of the country, “spot” deliveries (where the customer takes the car home THAT day) are commonplace. Having a customer wait for a home delivery only reduces profit potential at the dealership AND gives the customer additional time to “rethink” their decision and back out of the deal. It happens. Step Six: We announce a very simple and easy to understand incentive...Got GM Get GM. It is a loyalty incentive that anyone can comprehend. If you currently own or lease a GM vehicle, you receive $1,000. · A GM loyalty incentive is a good idea. However, you cannot stop offering incentives to owners of competing makes. GM cannot survive on its current owners, employees, and retirees for the purchase of GM cars. GM needs to gain market-share from owners of competing makes and one way to do that is to give them a reason to come into a GM dealership. Unfortunately, at this time, the GM product is NOT enough of a reason to entice these consumers. It may be someday, but not now. Incentives are here to stay and as long as GM remains REASONABLE with their incentives and rebates, that’s not a bad thing. Step Seven: Annual Model Change. · Once again, if GM does this, they will be at a severe competitive disadvantage. One of the reasons that vehicle introductions became staggered throughout the year, was to gain the “upper hand” against a competitor that was also bringing out a new and competing model. Back 50 years ago, when competition was much less, the Big Three were a mainstay of the U.S. retail auto industry, and all manufacturers introduced new cars in the fall timeframe, this was a great idea. The very nature of the industry now and the number of competitors makes this an unrealistic practice. GM may decide to wait until the fall to introduce their new models, but their competitors surely will not. The competition will be more successful in pulling consumers into their showrooms to sell them their newest products instead of consumers “waiting” until fall to see what GM has to offer. Step Eight: Increase Dealer Margin. · Realistically, any increase in margin will be followed by an increase in price. NOW, if GM products get to a strong enough point of acceptance in the marketplace, this increase in price should not be a big issue. They are NOT at this point of acceptance yet. Asking GM to increase margins without a corresponding increase in price is asking GM to give up revenue they desperately need right now. Step Nine: Get On The Street. Each month, each salary member of VSSM would be required to spend one day in a randomly selected dealership service department, preferably in write up. · All GM employees, (and employees at any manufacturer for that matter) should spend time working in a dealership to get a true feel for the retail environment. However, I don’t see this as being a big impact to the dealership’s productivity. It’s a good idea, but not a big enough impact to probably be included as one of the points in GM’s “Return To Greatness.” Step Ten: AARP. This is a fantastic demographic, and another opportunity to simplify incentives. Make it a year-round program. If you belong to AARP, you get $500 off any GM product, buy or lease. · AARP is a good program, and a good targeted marketing incentive. However, like above, the impact is likely to be way too small to add to GM’s “Return To Greatness.” AARP, in the overall scheme of things, is a highly-targeted demographic and a correspondingly small proportion of the car-buying public. This incentive would primarily be aimed at GM retirees or Buick consumers. This incentive would do next-to-nothing towards helping convince shoppers at BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Toyota, or Lexus stores to come into a GM dealership. Step Eleven: Brand Merchandise Offerings: Include with each delivery a coupon for $50 off, or towards, merchandise from an affinity catalog. · Good idea. You could target the brand merchandise offerings to match the individual GM divisional brand image. HOWEVER, once again, the impact from this promotion would do little to correct GM’s market share slide. GM’s problem today is WAY bigger than this. Step Twelve: Auto Shows. Instead of the current practice of giving rebates to certain residents of surrounding counties, let's offer auto show tickets to those who test drive our products. · Auto shows cost, $9, $10, $11 to get in. I don’t see this as making any impact. Auto show tickets alone aren’t going to bring new consumers into a GM dealership. Step Thirteen: At year end, instead of giving our employees a cash award for profit sharing, reward them with stock, and make them true partners in the company's success. · A nice idea, however, this does nothing to help fix the “core” problem at GM….and that’s the competitiveness of their products and the perception of GM products in the marketplace by those consumers that GM NEEDS to attract from the Japanese and European car shoppers. Step Fourteen: PEP Cars. Quite often, GM executives turn in their factory demos with the mileage just under the next price discount level. This practice is both frustrating and annoying. The inconsideration shown to fellow employees, and retirees, is inexcusable and unacceptable. · No impact from this point. GM PEP cars are a phenomenon that only merits any importance from people living in Michigan (or surrounding states where people work at GM factories, etc.) where the majority of GM company cars are in service. Furthermore, these PEP cars are usually sold to GM employees and retirees. Complaining about losing out on an additional GM discount, when you are already getting a substantial discount on a PEP car is a needless and petty point to argue when it has nothing to do with GM gaining market-share in places like Los Angeles, Dallas, Atlanta, and New York. Step Fifteen: Referral Savings Account. Similar to the GM Card (another crisis), GM announces a program to accumulate a savings of $50 for each referral who buys or leases a new vehicle. · At $50 per referral, a consumer would never accumulate enough dollars to make the incentive strong enough to pull him/her into a GM dealership. Once again, maybe GM employees in Michigan might utilize such a program but in the REST of the country, how many people do you really think would refer a significant number of people to buy a GM car, then to actually redeem those dollars at a GM dealership? GM has to get people to CONSIDER their products for purchase FIRST before you can think about those consumers actually referring someone to buy a GM vehicle. Step Sixteen: Free GM Smart Care Maintenance Agreement to all GM Retirees. This 36 month 36,000 mile program would offer free recommended maintenance to all GM retirees. · Simply MORE “legacy costs” at a time when GM most assuredly does NOT need them. GM retirees are NOT going to save GM so there is little point in spending money in this way to further incentivize them. They are most likely going to continue to buy GM vehicles ANYWAY due to the discounts they receive. GM needs to spend money to improve product and increase market share….NOT foster goodwill with retirees. Step Seventeen: GM Card. This was one of the best programs GM has ever had. That was until someone decided to take earnings away, and thereby alienate thousands of employee cardholders. · I cannot comment as I am unfamiliar with the GM Card and recent activity that has supposedly made it a less-than-desirable incentive. Step Eighteen: Sales Guilds. For years GM had brand specific sales guilds. Now, everything is combined into the GM Mark of Excellence. It's a decent enough program, but it would be more effective to return to the old days of Buick Salesmaster and the Chevrolet Legion of Leaders. · Unlikely to strongly impact GM’s falling market-share. The salespeople need good, competitive product to sell. That’s the first step. Step Nineteen: Direct Factory Communication: Imagine going to your local dealer and ordering a new vehicle. · What percentage of GM vehicle purchases are actually custom-ordered? Not many. Due to this fact, this point has very little impact on GM’s overall challenges. Step Twenty: Reinstatement of Regional Sales Training Classes. Years ago, GM offered professional sales development classes at their regional training centers. · This point adds serious cost, which GM cannot afford right now. Sales training is ALWAYS beneficial, but most manufacturers these days utilize various computer and internet tools to train salespeople. Additionally, the dealership sales managers should be empowered to make sure their respective sales forces are properly trained. That is one function that the individual GM district sales manager should be responsible for on a local level. Regional sales training centers are an unnecessary expense. If a salesperson is not disciplined enough to utilize the computer, internet, and print materials available to him/her, than they shouldn’t be in the business in the first place. Are some of these ideas good ideas? Sure. However, Buickman initially promoted these "20 Steps" as THE cure for the market-share hangover that GM is currently battling. GM's problems are WAY bigger than this.....and it's going to take ALOT more to overcome the (now country-wide) image, quality, reliability, and desirability perception-problem that an increasingly bigger portion of the car-buying public has about GM's products.

I like the Honda V6 and actually like the LOOKS of the VUE.....but in all the ones I've seen, the B-pillar panel gap....between the glass....is SO wide, you can easily see the understructure that's inside the door pillar...... Also, the inside is really tacky....the center console (where the shifter is) totally is loose and you can move it back and forth with your hand. Additionally, the trim piece that surrounds the gauge cluster is so loose it's come off in my hands in three separate ones I was in at auto shows (and no, I didn't abuse it...or try to damage it...) It just snaps off....and snaps back on.....but that makes it appear really cheap. The Escape, on the other hand, is awash in hard plastics....but everything seems to fit much tighter and more solid....making the Escape interior seem much higher-quality....even if the plastics and materials aren't really any better than the VUE's.

#74: In most areas, $1M still buys you "just" a tract-home. #75: Want to "only" spend 1/2 a Million? You're stuck in a condo.

#72, LMFAO.... #73, The "Curtain" has now pretty much disappeared...!

....and I bet the Toyota doesn't have a 125hp, throttle-body FI, pushrod, 3.1L V6 matched to a 3-speed automatic either.....

.....which don't share any exterior bits....at all.....and even have unique dashboards and instrument clusters.......(Charger/Magnum share dash....but 300's is totally different.)

.....just like '07 Tahoe and Yukon......don't forget......

Boeing's airplane division is still headquartered in Seattle.....it was the parent company that moved to Chicago......and I'm not sure why, except maybe that they wanted a more central location (the other choices up for contention were Denver and Dallas.) Boeing still has a large presence in southern California as well (defense-related.)

Too bad the basic VUE is such a piece of crap.....Escape and Highlander don't have anything to worry about. Seriously.....even with the new interior, this vehicle has the worst fit-and-finish and interior quality in the segment..... Not to mention the HUGE panel gaps on VUE....which look even worse on this vehicle than most mainstream Saturns....

.......get ready for MT Car of the Year '07.......

I'm sorry I won't be there..... :unsure: I'm in Denver where it's 35 degrees with 50mph wind gusts...... :o I'll be home 2nite around 6pm...flying into LAX :)

46. You go to the local (every Saturday) Newport Coast hot rod/exotic car show and see 4 Ford GTs, 2 Ferrari F40s, and 2 Ferrari Enzos at ONCE... 47. You go to the local (every Saturday) Newport Coast hot rod/exotic car show and.....you cruise the parking lot.....because the parking lot FOR the car show has almost as many cool cars as the car show itself...

You may think of the pushrod motor as a more "efficient" design.... ....but there's alot of people (consumers) out there that much prefer the way the "inefficient" (multi valves and overhead cams) design feels, sounds, and revs.