The O.C.

That sounds like "GM-Kool-Aid-Drinking" thinking..... (just kidding, Fly....)

LOL.... Ask the kid in the M3 that I DESTROYED with my C6 Convertible 6-speed....(and I'm a BMW fan too....)

My comments and opinions and are not (obviously) all-inclusive of every UAW member....but they DO come from 7 years of working closely with the UAW in Flint and Detroit and from my many negative experiences with the UAW and the overall atmosphere of "us versus them" that they openly promoted. So....YES...it IS opinion....but it comes from some solid (mostly negative unfortunately) experiences....

BECAUSE.....in '03, GM WASN'T buidling a "better Camry" and they still aren't. GM should have been focusing on a "better Camry" a DECADE ago....much less in '03...and CERTAINLY not as late as now.... Those funds would have been much better utilized in other areas back in '03....or in '06...however you want to look at it.

Excellent example AND point...... Also, look at Toyota.....Camry/Solara/Avalon/Highlander as another example

Also.....a car's resale value (or lack thereof) directly affects whether or how much a customer is "upside down" or not. And unfortunately, GM's car divisions are not known for healthy resale values....which only compounds the problem.

Nicely STYLED...... ....but with some poor quality (ALOT of poor quality in Cobalt's case) plastics and materials....and subpar fit-and-finish (again, more so in Cobalt's case...) Impala is a much better effort than Cobalt....but still suffers from really bad-looking woodgrain trim and too much hard plastic on the dash where others don't put it....

Fly....in ALL due respect....please stay out of this one.... You don't know what you are talking about in THIS particular case...

Thanks for the reply.... Regarding his pronouncements.....he presents them that way because, as hard as it may be to accept, they ARE solidly rooted in fact.... He KNOWS what he's talking about.....he's lived it and seen it from many sides. And because of the experience that I have in the industry, perhaps I can see it easier than others.... No one is saying he's providing gospel on here, but I know Evok perhaps better than anyone else on here.....we've had similar experiences in the industry....(and his are even more strongly-tied than mine) so all I'm trying to say is that when he debates something that conflicts with your opinion, or perhaps popular opinion on here, he does it for a solid, and good, reason. Remember.....we are not all only enthusiastic on here about GMs products, I'd say we ALL want GM to be successful. WELL, unfortunately, for GM to be successful, even avoid BK, and thrive ten, twenty, thirty years from now, there are things that need to be done that sometimes can seem to conflict severly to what us GM fans on here would like to see.....(e.g....a more highly-flexible new platform than what Kappa gave us.) AND, I can't stress this enough, a "better Camry" is EXACTLY what GM needs right now....or they will never recapture the spirit of the U.S. automotive consumer shopper. The Solstices and Camaros and GTOs will follow in due time. If you CAN'T build a "better Camry" then you could be doomed for failure.

Uh.....NO..... Toyota built it's strength by realizing the true nature of the automotive market in the U.S. and starting to build products that appealed to consumers in this country due to their design, engineering, and quality......while GM did the exact opposite. AND...I find it ironic that the majority of industries in the U.S. that are growing, prospering, and thriving right now have absolutely little-to-no historic ties to labor unions.....(service industries, high-tech, real estate, etc..) The goodwill achieved by labor unions in their heyday (workers rights, compensation, benefits, and job security) have been FAR overrun by the disgusting greed coming from the latter-day UAW.

I certainly hope you are speaking for YOURSELF........ Evok's insights are supported by an intense connection to the U.S. automotive industry that goes WELL beyond "just" working for a Big 3 manufacturer. Many have tried to point that out on here many times....and most of us know it. He brings, I would argue, THE strongestly-supported opinion, insights, and knowledge of what's going on in this industry to this C&G website. You may find his approach too combatitive.....but maybe that's because it seems your ego won't allow you to sit down and for once maybe take a strong, non-biased look at his insights. It doesn't mean you have to change your opinions or even agree with him....but the manner in which you dismiss him doesn't reflect well on yourself....and I'm sure ONLY adds to his frustration in having any sort of constructive debate with you on here.

ocnblu....Evok's, and Croc's, and my point is that the money would have been far better spent on a new, let's say for argument's sake, compact-to-midsize, RWD, sedan platform that would..... 1) Provide a similar level of excitement for a GM product that we are seeing with Solstice and SKY....(re...aggressively-styled, great-driving, "poor man's" BMW 3-series) and.... 2) Give GM a platform that is widely more flexible for future product programs. I'm not saying the small, RWD sedan platform is THE answer....just an example of another "exciting" product program that could spawn far greater future product benefits (and revenue) for the company.

VERY true.....! We should all be celebrating when a GM vehicle like a Cobalt, or Impala, or Equinox demands the same level of consumer respect and enthusiasm as Solstice, SKY, and Corvette do.... GM needs MAINSTREAM hits....not niche-vehicle winners...

(....sorry....couldn't resist....)

Fly....there IS NO NAV. Think about it in a consumer's standpoint....not "our" standpoint. Buick launched this new car without one of the features becoming increasingly sought-after in the $30K-$40K sedan range. Consumers shop the car....see there is no nav available. IF this feature IS an important consideration for them, then Buick gets a big mark against it in the shopping comparison. They won't wait for Navigation to become available "mid-year" or "later"....they are shopping NOW..... THAT's my point.....NOT so much disagreeing with you, but putting the lack of features into the perspective of the average shopping consumer. And Buick lacks that feature on the Lucerne....at this time...

When? I haven't seen ONE Lexus with a tacky add-on rear spoiler.....maybe I've seen an (old) IS model with one, I don't remember, but CERTAINLY no ES, GS, or LS.... And if there HAS been one....I'm (almost) positive it was some dealer add-on....certainly not offered from the factory. In ANY event....it most certainly doesn't fit Buick's image....

Camino.....how many "high-winding" Japanese (or European for that matter) cars have you driven? I'm guessing none.....based upon your previous comments. Low end torque if good. However, with today's technology like VVT and lighter-weight components, just about all import multi-cam/multi-valve engine offers low-end performance comparable, if not better in some cases, than many typically low-torque (read pushrod) engines. (eg...compared to most pushrod engines, they also rev much quicker into their, albeit higher, powerbands....compensating some as well.) The Honda S2000 and Toyota VVT 1.8L engines being my two big exceptions..... Example.....stoplight drag race with our "high winding" X5 4.4i V8 versus a new Silverado SS "torquer." We stayed neck-and-neck all the way from a stop to about 90mph when I let off (we were at a light entering the 5fwy....) That "torquey" Silverado really seemed to have no low-rpm advantage. Anyways.....even if you hate them....go test drive some of them sometimes. At least then you'll get more of what we are all harping about on here......go test drive a new Camry with the 3.5L V6, or a BMW 550i with the 4.8L Valvetronic V8, or a VW Jetta or GTi or GLi with the wonderful 2.0T engine, or (gasp) a Honda Civic Si with the 197hp L4.

I was at the grocery store a while back, and was walking up to my C6 when a guy in a brand new (dealer tags still on it) BMW 750Li, younger guy, maybe early 40's, asked me how I liked my Corvette. Of course I sung its praises. He complimented on it and how nice it looked, and I showed him the interior and the higher quality materials...and the dude was truly impressed. I also talked about how fast it is and how good it handles, yet how truly comfortable it was and how nice the ride quality was... What did he say? That he's a "Porsche" guy and although the new C6 was "truly a step above" he could never consider buying a "GM product" again because of all the "bad experiences he had in the past." Could I ever have experienced such a STEREOTYPICAL "imports good, GM bad" conversation with a consumer? YET it happened....I didn't make it up.....and unfortunately THAT'S the real challenge GM has yet to address. You can argue all day long how that guy is "biased" or driven by "media influence" or you can even call him an "import-loving idiot." BUT the fact of the matter is, he was a younger guy, certainly successful, and it's the BMW dealership that just sold him that $75K-$85K sedan....and you can rest assured (from my conversation with him) as good as the C6 is, it will be the Porsche dealer that will get his sports-car-business....not the GM store. What do you think he'll buy his kids to drive when they turn 16? Scary....isn't it....?

LORD Josh..... Okay....I'm gonna and say it again. You live in MICHIGAN.... Which is about as FAR from reality in the automotive marketplace as you can get. Don't you see that? Really?

.......Camino, that means "GM Biggest Fans AND Toughest Critics." It's not "naysaying"....it's "criticism"....most of it "constructive criticism." That's okay that you have your own level of enthusiasm for GM. That's cool. People like Evok and I WANT GM to be successful.....but we can't be blindly loyal to the realities of the situation and of the market in general.....and in order FOR GM to be successful, there are certain things they HAVE to change and product development is the BIG ONE. I, for one, am an overall car enthusiast FIRST....and a GM fan SECOND. Yes, I love GM....but my level of car enthusiasm doesn't stop there....it goes WAY further. I've said before on here that I paid $62K for a GM car (C6 convertible) and I feel that was a BIG statement from me in my confidence for GM. I'm one of their toughest critics on here (to the derision of many) but when I see GM doing something that I feel is world-class, and a solid choice in the marketplace, I'm not afraid to give GM a significant amount of money for one of their products. That being said, that's one of the ONLY products in their vast empire that I would consider writing my own check for. CTS is another....and maybe a GMT-900 (if I was ever in the market for a full-size SUV.) Do I LIKE the Lucerne? YES. Do I like the Cobalt SS Supercharged? YES. Would I actually spend my money for one of those over any number of competitiors? Unfortunately no....I can't justify it. Even though I may "like" those cars. There are too many "....buts" associated with them.....

I see Scion as doing in two years what Saturn has really NEVER done.....

.....maybe in Michigan, Josh.....

NICE powertrain improvements! The L4 is class-leading.....but I'm still worried that GM won't be able to get over consumer perception that a "5" cylinder will be inherently inferior to a "6" cylinder or "8" cylinder. The new I-5s numbers are strong. But what I really want to see them do is work on the insistent moaning and groaning that comes along with this engine. It's overall lack of refinement kills it for me more than even the performance.....

.....except I just don't like the exterior styling of the Maxima. The new one is improved in front....but I still HATE everything about the rear end..... Otherwise I'd agree with you....