The O.C.

You've TOTALLY missed the point of that whole argument.....

More commonplace than not.......so yes.....

Thanks.....now my recently-eaten lunch is all over the kitchen table......<wiping off the laptop>

I find it interesting that there's so much bashing on Toyota in this thread for being "souless" and "characterless" and whatever....when THEY are the ones that are building the BEST-SELLING car in America (however you want to criticize it...) GM can't even slam enough Impalas into rental fleets to come close to Camry's success..... If you call Toyota "souless" for that example of success, then I'd continue to build every single "souless" Toyota I could....

OK....enough of the hyperbole. First of all, the "sludge-making" engines were ones that the consumers hadn't done timely LOF changes (some with over 15K miles without a change) when the owners manual clearly stated something like oil changes at 5K or 7,500 miles.... And Toyota never established the Prius as a "60mpg" hybrid. The EPA (flawed that it may be) are the ones that did that... Let's get everything straight here.....

I just got my real estate agent/friend a deal on a new X3....and believe it or not, she LOVES it. I tried to get her to look at SRX and she said...."it looks too much like a station wagon." End result? She wanted the "look" (whatever that is) of an SUV....and she wanted an "upscale" badge. She narrowed it down to Infiniti FX35 or the X3. The X3 had the maintenance package, and the styling was less "out there." She could care less that the X3 has less horsepower, etc. The "station wagon" comment she made about the SRX says something....

GM publicly stated LONG AGO that Cadillac was to move upscale to compete with Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and BMW and that Buick would move up to fill the "traditional" Cadillac role. Well, DTS isn't the sort of product that I think of when I think of a division competing against Mercedes-Benz, Audi, or BMW. Buick already builds a "better" DTS...and that's called the Lucerne (at least stylistically in my eyes...) 'Nuff said.....

Well, for one, I'm incredibly annoyed that my C6 doesn't have auto up and down on both windows. I got used to it in the other non-GM vehicles I've owned before and it's one of those things, in a whole line of features, that most other manufacturers are offering and GM is increasingly slow on the uptake. Even my Liberty company car has at least auto down on both front windows.... The point is....GM needs to provide the features in their vehicles that the competition is offering and that consumers appreciate. It's a similar story with the Lucerne (no xenons, no telescope, no power tilt, no articulating headrests, no naviagation yet, etc, etc.) No one on here said a decision would be made based simply on "express window" operation......but it's the whole packaged deal that people consider......

I had the most incredible test drive experience ever in my "career" as a car enthusiast! I attended the Ferrari Challenge at Infineon Raceway (formerly known as Sears Point) up in the Bay Area this weekend. Through a friend that I have at Ferrari N.A., I got to test drive a 612 Scaglietti and an F430 Spider for about 30 minutes each on roads in and around Sonoma County. And, incredibly, my friend got me two "hot laps" around the track in between races in a 612 driven by a professional Ferrari driver. 612 Scaglietti The 612 is THE Ferrari daily-driver. I was impressed by how much room was actually inside the car (it IS a big car after all....) and we had three of us in it when I drove it and as long as the person in front moves the seat a bit, you can comfortably sit in the rear.....at least for a night out to dinner or a day of errands. I don't think you'd wanna ride on a trip back there though. It's a handsome car, but by no means the most beautiful Ferrari ever made. The interior, however, was in a whole new league. Everything, I mean EVERYthing was covered in soft leather....including the headliner, the sun visors, the console, the dash, etc. I was even impressed by the general fit-and-finish and the HVAC controls and secondary switchgear moved with a fine precision. The car I drove was not equipped with the optional GTC handling pack and as a result of the quieter exhaust, the car was amazingly refined for such a vehicle. It still had the characteristic Ferrari V-12 snort, but it was muted in this model. The ride is very firm, but still comfortable. This car is certainly able to offer a more "hard-edged" alternative to fancy 2+2 GT cars such as the Continental GT or Jaguar XJ. I was also surprised by the light-effort steering....however, there was NO slack in the gear and turning response was still quite sharp. If you are so inclined, the 612 can be a "two-finger" steer. Put your foot down, and the car explodes. I believe C&D got 0-60 in 4.2 seconds and it feels it. But the engine is extremely smooth....if vocal. I'll comment later on the F1 transmission (both cars were so equipped.) Needless to say, on the road, this car feels WAY lighter than it's 4,100 lbs of curb weight. In the end, I of course loved the 612.....at over $200K how could you not? BUT...I was also slightly underwhelmed by what my expectations of a modern Ferrari should be. The 612 was almost too "normal" and too "refined." There's absolutely NOTHING eccentric about THIS Ferrari.....other than it's still-sheer competence on the road. Then, I took two hot laps in a GTC handling pack-equipped 612.....and man what a difference! First of all, the louder exhaust note will give you an instant hard-on. The race track at Infineon is quite fast as we hit over 120mph in the 612 on the 3 straights long enough to gain some speed. Particularly exciting was the minor amount of air we got coming over one rise at 120mph....you could hear the rear tires hitting the ground and screeching as they grabbed traction again. However, at no point did I ever feel like the car was out of control. There was a bit more roll in the severe corners than I imagined an F430 would have exhibited....but there's no doubt this car attacks a road course like no car weighing over 4K pounds has ANY right to. F430 Spider Man Ferrari has earned EVERY accolade they've gotten for this car. After my drive in the 612, THIS is a REAL Ferrari. This car is sex on wheels and everything about driving it sends incredible tingles up your backside. Maybe I'm being a bit overreactive here, but this car to me is the true essence of a Ferrari road car. First of all, you simply cannot believe the overwhelming throttle response of this small-displacement V8 (the 612's V-12 is the same...) Any small twitch of your toe extracts powerful responses from the 483hp V8. My C6, in comparison, feels slothful. Of course, the C6 Corvette is fast.....but in the Ferrari, it feels ferocious, like a caged animal. According to C&D, 0-60s are not that far apart....3.9secs for the F430 Spider, 4.3secs for the C6 convertible.....but it's hard to describe...you'd have to drive it to understand. It's something about the whole package....the engine, the transmission, the throttle pedal, the throttle linkage....it all seems way more wired to your brain inputs. Comparing the C6 to the F430 would be like, say, comparing say a Lexus LS430 and, say, a Nissan 350Z. Sure they both go 0-60 in about 5.7secs, but they feel entirely different getting there. The ride on the F430 is tied to the road....MUCH firmer than even a Z51 C6 I've driven.....but somehow, Ferrari builds in amazing suppleness over most road imperfections. If you've driven an EVO, you'll understand how a car can feel glued to the road, but with absolutely awful ride quality. In the Ferrari, they've managed to make the car decently comfortable. There was no cowl shake either. The steering was firmer than the 612's, but still of way lighter effort than I would have imagined. While the interior was finished to as high of a quality as the 612's, there wasn't quite enough fore-and-aft room for me to be totally comfortable....but I'm comparing that to my C6 convertible that is really overwhelmingly roomy inside....and actually above the norm for two seaters. Other than the fore-and-aft room, the inside was quite airy with plenty of width and headroom. You don't have that "sitting in a tub" feeling that you experience in a 911 or Gallardo. The best sensual part of this open-top Ferrari is the NOISE......OMG the NOISE......it's really like everyone says. The engine and exhaust notes are the most seductive I've ever heard. The sound that comes when you bypass the baffles with the throttle gives it a whole new edge. Even in say 6th gear, at 50mph, flexing your toe gives you an engine and exhaust note that will make you grin. It IS loud...but man with this car, you really don't care. Now the F1 transmission that was in both cars. The EXECUTION is excellent and the tranny will shift so fast, it will even execute two downshifts in a row to where you can't feel them both if you pump the paddle fast enough. However, at mid-to-high rev shifting, it's still WAY to lurchy. In the F430, when I would shift around 5,000rpms or higher, I could see my friend's head bobbing forward as the tranny slammed into gear. Yes it's fast....yes it's reliable.....but I can SO shift my C6 so much smoother (even if I wouldn't be quicker at the shifting.) What IS cool is how the F1 blips the throttle on downshifts. It's a good system...it really is....but as a traditionalist, I much prefer the driver interaction with a clutch and shifter. It's more rewarding. When I wasn't hustling, and just driving the cars around town, I might as well had an automatic it was so boring..... If I was spending the money and was really rich, I'd buy an F430 Spider with the traditional "three-pedal" 6-speed manual for driving around town....and buy an F430 Coupe F1 to take to the track. Downsides? No cupholders or cruise control in any Ferrari. (Many argue, including the Ferrari people themselves, that those features have no place in such a car.) Also, the paint quality on the 612 showed significant orange peel. The F430, however, looked to be flawless. Maintenance and repair costs HAVE to be a downside...but I guess if you can afford the cars in the first place, that really doesn't matter to you. Other than that, it really IS hard to nit-pick these things. Obviously this is a more-than-positive review of the cars. It was exciting to get to drive them. Are they perfect? Nah.....but Ferrari really has put the time, money, and enthusiasm into making these cars REALLY seem damn well worth the money. I've driven plenty of older Ferraris....and I was afraid these "modern" Ferraris would be "watered down." They aren't (even the "softer" 612.) It's not like Lexus trying to justify the additional price of an ES over a Camry. These cars do truly feel like something unique. And for that, we can all continue to dream! That being said, I grinned even more when I got back into my C6 Convertible at the end of the day, dropped the top, hit the gas and rowed from 1st through 6th gears getting back on the 101. After spending so much time in the Ferraris, my car felt soft....like a GT car....it was smoother riding, quieter, damn near as fast (even if the actual response isn't) and a LOT cheaper! BUT it's not the same as the Ferraris.... ....and that's actually a good thing for the Corvette.....and an appropriate thing for the Ferraris......

"I'm a tree....I can bend..." Croc you should know by now your condescending and childish insults don't affect me.... Sorry you have to resort to THAT way too often.....

Good read...... BUT.....comparable to the best of Europe and Japan....? I'd hesitate to say that..... The writer also has a GREAT point about all the missing convenience features in the new Escalade....I didn't realize it was lacking all those things.... CTS drives incredibly well and competes on a high level from a ride-and-handling standpoint....and the 3.6L engine is quite a nice powertrain. However, as mentioned before, it's interior trim quality is bottom-of-the-pack. STS is about as big of a disappointment as you can get.......it's pricing-versus-option packaging is all wrong.....interior packaging isn't that much better than the smaller CTS......it's A&S styling is dumbed down so far it looks "generic" in a sea of $40K-$60K sedans.....and it's interior has sub-par materials. DTS.....I don't even want to go there. IMHO that car is SO far out of touch with where Cadillac should be setting their sights, it pisses me off to think they even brought it out. It may be their "volume" product....but that's only because of the large number of units put into fleet. DTS does nothing but consumer-perception-damage to all the good things Cadillac HAS accomplished. Do you see a 3-series driver aspiring to a 5-series....? Or a 7-series....? SURE.... Do you see a C-Class driver aspiring to an E-Class....? S-Class....? Absolutely..... How do you perceive a CTS driver (that came OUT of an import for sake of argument) aspiring to a DTS...? nah....not gonna happen....

Whatever...... I think it's obvious I was responding to a blanket statement he made that he has no way of substantiating.....

I don't know if you are asking about Evok or myself that posted this thread, but I graduated college from GMI Engineering & Management institute in Flint, MI. I worked for GM for 11 years, ten of them at Buick Motor Division. I worked in just about every single department within Buick including Product Planning and Marketing and I had a large hand in developing the launch plan for the 1995 Riviera...a product I also was involved in it's development in a few certain areas. I also worked for GM/Buick in Philadelphia, San Francisco, and most recently, Los Angeles. I also have retain experience as a Sales Manager at Irvine BMW, one of the largest BMW dealerships in the country....and I spent six months on the floor of a Suzuki dealership out in Riverside to gain experience selling cars (the Suzuki dealer was a friend....otherwise I wouldn't have picked Suzukis to sell....although it WAS an interesting experience.) I left General Motors in 1999 due to a few factors. One was that they wanted to move me back to Detroit, where I would "most likely spend the rest of my career" and I had no desire to leave Los Angeles.....being single, leaving by the beach, etc. I knew southern California to offer a wide variety of automotive-career choices as well. Most importantly, however, I left GM because I just really lost a good portion of my confidence that they WOULD turn the corner....and in the last 7 years since I quit, my life, job, career have never been better. And I see that today....GM hasn't gotten really any better than when I left in '99....and in many ways, it's worse..... SO....yes I'm still a GM enthusiast....and I do want them to succeed....but I approach GM from a realist standpoint because I've SEEN the inside of GM and I'm now seeing the outside of GM.....and let me tell you, it really doesn't look like they've changed their corporate culture, or the way they approach the auto market in their products and decisions, at all.

....and with 80+ models, take all biases and enthusiasm aside, in reality's sake, only the C6 Corvette, the GMT-900s, and MAYBE the CTS (although it's poor interior trim quality keeps it from being "leading") could be called class-leading or even class-competitive.

I'm no engineer....but isn't this architecture designed around a front MacPherson strut setup? I've always felt that this arrangement is more cost-effective than a multi-link arrangment but not nearly as efficient at snubbing ride motions....unless you resort to an overly aggressive level of firmness in the suspension tune..... My parents' '99 Regal GS exhibits the same ride motions......in fact the ride-and-handling feels very similar to the '06 LTZ......

My Summary? The GM enthusiast in me likes this car and would actually even consider purchasing one in SS trim! However, the realist in me recognizes that this car is at best a "has-been" in the marketplace and at least a solid decade behind where it needs to be in order to effectively compete in the mid-to-large sedan segment. Now my impressions....... I like the updated appearance of this car and the updated interior with quite good fit-and-finish and a more modern appearance (even if some of the trim pieces are of dubious quality.) However, actually driving this car reminds me of almost every single GM sedan I've driven in the last 20 years......and that's not a good thing..... Strangely-enough, the 3.9L in this LTZ is not anywhere near as responsive as I remember it being in the Monte Carlo I drove in this very same city (Las Vegas.) I have no explanation but had to even check under the hood to make sure "fleet" LTZ Impalas didn't have a 3.5L installed.....'cause that's what it feels like. It's still a good example of a GM pushrod V6. That being said, it still groans and moans at part-throttle to full-throttle. It's sluggish off the line (where's that good ole fashioned pushrod-level low-end torque?) but impressive at highway speeds up to 90mph-plus. The overall architecture shows it's age in the way the nose bobs up and down relative to your level of aggressivness with the throttle or brakes. Taking off aggressively from a start sends the nose aiming for the clouds....while a somewhat-aggressive application of the brakes at 80-90mph (after a strong acceleration run getting on the freeway) sent the nose diving into the ground. Not what I'd call confidence-inspiring.....or classy-feeling.... The chassis feels very solid over bumps and at 5/10ths driving around some nice curves reveals a decent level of roll control. The body drifts in turns, but takes an easy set and pulls nicely around the turn. However, up the driving level to 7/10ths or 8/10ths, and major understeer and front-tire scrub sets in sending the nose wide of the curve and no amount of throttle or brake action will bring the back end around to tighten the curve. One annoying thing I've noticed inside this car.....(and a major area where GM is seriously behind the curve) is the steering wheel and steering column. It seems like the steering wheel is WAY out towards my chest relative to it's distance to the dash....and, alas, with GM, there is no telescope feature on this wheel. I have to move the seat back an almost uncomfortable distance from the pedals in order to have the wheel at a decent position for me. I don't believe this car has adjustable pedals....but why not just engineer a new wheel/column with tilt AND telescope functions? Another annoyance is having ONLY auto-down on the driver-side window. NO auto up...and no auto down on any other window. Finally.....why is the trunk so HUGE that you can't even reach into the very back of the trunk....yet the rear seat space is so lacking? (answer....the ancient architecure.) I'd LOVE to give up some of the huge trunk space in return for a much more accomodating back seat. That, however, can't happen until the car is developed off a newer, more modern platform. Also, speaking of the architecture, the car looks all discombobulated with those HUGE front-and-rear overhangs underpinning sheetmetal that's actually quite attractive. Sounds wierd to have me tell you I actually liked this car after reading my comments.....but I do. However, when I look at it in the grand scheme of things, the new Impala is a most forgettable rental-queen that not only sets no new ground in the marketplace, it actually reminds you of the GM sedans of a decade ago.....just with a more modern wrapper and a cleaner interior. I'm forever hoping for WAY more with this car.

Some Things Never Change. I quit GM seven years ago due to my forsight of the "impending doom" and to be honest, I really DO wish I was here today saying "I never should have left." Unfortunately, seven years later, I'm reaffirmed that my departure from General Motors is the BEST thing that I ever did (career-wise)..... From an enthusiast standpoint, I may be even MORE frustrated with them. GM should be the most successful car company in the world producing the best engineered and most well executed designs in the marketplace.

Croc.....that's nothing but a bandaid on the wound....... They are still producing way too many products for way too many divisions.....no matter how the dealer network is being redrawn..... Step in the right direction? Sure....but it's far from where they need to be.

You totally miss the whole grand scheme of things....... Too many dealers coincides with too many divisions...... I'm not saying it's an easy solution (re....Oldsmobile and their dealers) just pointing out where the problem lies.....it's a huge mess that GM needs to get out of (excess production capacity, too many models, too many divisions) but probably never will be able to get out of.....

This sounds like it came right out of the mouth of some kool-aid drinking top GM product planner/executive that's a life-long Michigan resident. I'm not ragging on Krinkle in particular, but his comments DO echo the thought process that's been WAY to prevalent at GM for way too many decades.......

Camino.....that's an ignorant statement for you to make.....unless you have cold, solid, hard facts to support your opinion.....and I know you don't. It's absurd to think that EVERY Toyota buyer signs the check without any emotional connection to their purchase......that's crazy..... Just as you think most Toyota buyers are appliance shoppers....there's many of them that would SERIOUSLY question YOUR enthusiasm for many GM products....

By who's opinion? Yours....? Opinions like this are entirely subjective (even if I may agree with you on some or most of the above....) that's why I think actual retail performance in the marketplace is a great barometer of "gotta have."

Re read my post Croc....I said I picked up some shirts at the mall....then went and picked up $160-worth of dry cleaning......meaning that I had ALOT of dry cleaning and all the dry cleaning laying out straight in the trunk as not to wrinkle sat about a foot thick... My C6 isn't a primary car either Croc.....but the POINT about having a nice convertible on a sunny day is being able to get it out and DRIVE it around and enjoy it.....even if my reasons for being out-and-about is to run errands, or go shopping, etc. I could've taken my Jeep company car to run my errands.....but why do that? It was a beautiful sunny day and I wanted to drive the convertible....and thanks to the Corvette's generous trunk room, I was able to do just that.

"We Build Excitement..!"

When people on here (such as myself) suggest that GM still has too many divisions and that some of them (such as perhaps Pontiac) need to disappear.....it's because of product decisions such as THIS..... The ONLY reason this car exists is to placate Pontiac dealers. Any REAL demand for a Cobalt-type vehicle from General Motors could EASILY be filled by the thousands of Chevrolet dealerships in existence (as well as the smaller number of ION-selling Saturn dealerships.)