CARBIZ

They were sandbagged, pure and simple. This entire trip to Washington was both unnecessary and purely for optics, so I guess in that regard you are correct that they should have put on a better show for the media. Perhaps one area where the Big Three need to change their focus is to gain strength from each other. In Iaccoca's first book he alludes to this mindset where the heads of Toyota, Honda, etc. used to routinely get together in Japan to swap ideas (and probably plot their strategy on Fortress America); whereas, due to the laws and attitudes in America, the heads of the Big Three never really spoke to each other, except during Labor negotiations. Perhaps that attitude needs to stop. Detroit needs to admit they've been duped by Japan Inc and the media, so they should start fighting back and playing dirty, if necessary. GM has been putting full page ads in Toronto's papers, detailing how much investment and how many jobs they have in the greater Toronto area, plus areas where GM has been the leader. IT'S ABOUT TIME. In hindsight, it might have been better if Nardinelli, Mullaly and Wagoner, plus their respective teams, all went in the same plane, but then pundits would have fumed that there is some master plot afoot. Enzl, I know you hate Wagoner, and that's fine, but I turn my ire to the media, because I personally have been bullied by them and I know first hand how much BS is spread by them. I am sick of the optics. These a-holes on WallStreet and in the media are playing with people's lives just to acheive cheap shots and for their own career gain. Washington can play their chess game and Detroit can plot and plan, but meanwhile customers are staying away in droves. All they want to talk about is GM's bankruptcy. Nothing else matters to them right now.

I'm getting the BF a huge armoire for Xmas so I can get part of the master bedroom closet back, but since we have nowhere to hide this monstrosity, I have to wait until a few days before Xmas to pick it up. Other than that, the sister's brats get gift certificates because they already have everything Known to Man. I think for my mother, I'm going to give her GM stock to go with her CR-V.

How good would YOU look after a few weeks of no sleep and popping pills?

:rotflmao: Thanks, now you've made me spill my coffee!

Yeah, it's not like Wagoner travels alone to these meetings. I am sure he would have his entourage (advisors, lawyers, etc.) with him. This is the age of sound bites and cheap shots, is all.

Well, we are very lucky that 3/4 of the planet is water because our oceans are great neutralizers: they store heat, they moderate weather, as well as nurturer Life. Anyone who thinks that science is not political is mistaken. Look at Copernicus. Look at Socrates. There were lots of things thought or said hundreds or thousands of years ago that went unchallenged because the prevailing thought of the day wouldn't accept it. As a woman I know who is studying biochemistry and evolutionary biology said to me recently,"it's amazing that we are even having these discussions in this day and age."

... if you follow the story line of the series Enterprise, the original voyages that left our solar system weren't even equipped with any serious weaponry. In one of the early episodes of that series, they had to fashion some 'phase cannons' for defense while on a voyage. Fairly naive, I thought. Humans had already met the Vulcans and knew of other races before we ventured beyond our solar system, so not having some form of weaponry was pretty dumb. Unless you follow the story lines of Larry Niven in the Man-Kzin Wars, where humanity lost the ability to fight war and only won the first battle with the warrior-like Kzinti because the first ships were lasar powered and a turning ship (fleeing the first battle) inadvertantly roasted the Kzinti battlecruiser with its engines! I'd like to believe that the Universe is populated with peace-loving beings, but we just don't know, do we?

Nobody over the age of 5 will fit in the 3rd row of the Highlander. We tried. With the 3rd row in place, you can't even get an average sized cooler behind the 3rd row. And Toyota cheaped out and made the 3rd row one solid piece, which means if you use the seat for one kid, you still have no storage. Hybrid or not, the Highlander is a joke. It almost makes the TB look good. Almost.

As I posted earlier, GM had better pray oil prices rise dramatically over the next 2 years; otherwise, the Volt could flop. Americans have proven to be a stubborn lot. The rest of the world made the switch to small cars in the '70s and stayed with it. North America did not. We all bought K-Cars and Chevettes in the '80s, then switched to SUVs and minivans. A very big minority of people believe small cars or fuel efficient cars equate cheap cars. I think it will be the most awful irony if GM sacrifices everything to bring the Volt out - at the expense of truck development, only to have $2 gas the norm for the next few years again. We'll never know if Toyota makes money on the Prius, but we do know that they don't have to amortize the development charges for the Synergy Drive, do they?

I was thinking the same thing: why are the Big 3 going to Washington? Shouldn't Washington get off their fat asses and take a tour of the devastation already happening in Michigan and see first hand what Detroit is trying to do for the future? Again, more BS, more studies, more hot air. A career polititian has NO CLUE how complex it is to design and build a car. This is all so typical of politicans. They are too busy fiddlin' while Rome is aburnin'!

When you get fired from the WSJ, you go work for TTAC.

That's Ms. Agadore Spartacus to you, honey!

That would be nice! Actually, global warming has been good for Ontario. 100 years ago, for the Santa Clause Parade (held last weekend, BTW), Santa originally was pulled on a real sleigh because there usually was enough snow in downtown Toronto to do just that. These days, it is very rare to have any significant snow fall in Toronto before mid-December. In fact, I'd say 7 of the last 10 Christmases have been 'green.' The Great Lakes used to freeze completely over; now even Lake Ontario doesn't. I do agree with you: even if what we are currently doing is not overly harming the environment, China and India's economic rise will completely destroy the planet. Can you imagine China with the same per capita penetration of gasoline powered cars as North America? Ouch. Therefore, research needs to continue. Personally, I hope we see quantum-singularity powered cars before I die.

I've been joking with the BF that when we go to Brazil in Feb (can't way to visit Foz do Iguacu, finally!) that we should stay. His condo is paid for, has a very nice roofdeck pool, is conveniently situated in the middle of the university district (can you spell D-I-V-O-R-C-E with all the hot college kids around the building?) and I could easily be a house-husband. He could go back to his management job and I could, well, learn Brazilian cooking......

... aw, c'mon - I miss those sliding controls and the knobs on the control consols! Not to mention the mini-skirts the female crew wore! Who's to say that the 23rd Century won't go 'retro' for the look? Cool trailer, though. I saw it on Heroes the other night.

BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER. Since GMAC has yanked leasing and Chrysler has gotten out of leasing, I have noticed all the imports advertising 5.9% and higher lease rates. Lease payments on a Honda have gone up - and that is against a recent record high $C. That is far different than a year ago. I was thinking just that: if this is what Honda and Toyota are pulling now just because we've gotten out of leasing, what will happen if GM (and/or Ford) aren't around at all?

Don't kid yourselves - Wagoner owns a ton of GM stock, and it wasn't bought at $3, either. Look, that is the greater issue with what is wrong with capitalism and globalism: nobody owns the company, so why should they give $h!? Any one of these CEOs can undoubtedly retire with the money they already have, so other than it looking bad on a resume, do they personally, truly give a $h! if GM, Ford or Chrysler go down? Henry Ford would have cared. Walter Chrysler would have cared. These modern day CEOs are not the real owners of the company. No one person 'owns' GM or Ford these days. I understand the symbolism, but would YOU work 60 hour weeks (which I am sure all 3 are these days), go without sleep and endure the stress for FREE? Especially for Mulally: he was hired to clean up the mess and he should be compensated, IMO. IMO, 60% of what these three companies are going through AT THIS VERY MOMENT has nothing to do with any fault of the individual companies. Eating crow (as they did in front of Washington yesterday) and putting up with the total BS at the hearings must have been personally agonizing for these gentlemen. The greater concern here should be is what happens if one of them has a heart attack and dies from the stress, or just resigns and walks away from the mess. What kind of a signal would that send?

Well, my income is down by 30% this year, I'm eating through my savings faster than hidden chocolate bars at a Jennie Craig Convention... oh, and my savings are dropping faster than my ex's ass. So, yeah, if I actually liked fish, it'd be nice to move to Baffin Island and live in an igloo......

For the record, wildfires would probably block as much sunlight (lowering temperatures) as it would create CO2 (raising temperatures.) Volcanoes spew a lot of nasty CO2 but usually result in a net cooling of Earth's temperatures. As to the remarks about human activity, if my memory serves me correctly, the greater London, England area had a lot of pollution problems before 1850. The amount of coal that city was burning in and around it would have put out more pollutants (and CO2) than the city probably emits today. The affect to the planet may have been negligible, but certainly the seeds of man's impact on Mother Earth were sewn in the first half of the 19th Century. By the end of the 19th Century, many European cities (and some American) were total cesspools of filth and pollution. I have serious doubts about this Global warming thing. There is just too much we don't know. Observing the smog over L.A. from Malibu last year, common sense dictates humans are having some sort of impact, but climatologists are sending out mixed signals as to what, exactly, is happening and why. (By the by, Montana and Saskatchewan being at the bottom of the ocean has nothing to do with climate and everything to do with plate tectonics.)

Yes, but the world demand for oil didn't suddenly drop 50%. That is what pisses me off. Oil goes from $147 to under $60 in 3 months and we are expected to swallow that the 'markets' are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

You guys crack me up. In 'our' world the danger is NOT putting out on the first date. When 95% of guys only want to get laid, you can imagine the testosterone in the air when two of them are sizing each other up. I will never forget the first time a guy said he 'wanted to go slow.' I was, like 19 and he was 17. I was half undressed and he was, like, 'woe, slow down there, I just want to take it slow.' My eyes nearly popped out of my head. What???? I replied. Hell, even my current partner (who could be Mother Theresa reincarnated), went home with me on the 'first date.' 6 1/2 years later, I'd say it was a good decision on both our parts. In retrospect, because he had 3 month's English, if he had taken my phone number, he probably wouldn't have called because he was so shy about his horrid English. I remember during my Eighteen Months in the Wilderness (the year and half between my 10 year relationship and this one) and I met a young guy via a phone service, he asked me how I knew if I had met 'the one.' First of all, I corrected him, there is never 'the one.' That is a myth. There is always the 'right now' or the 'best available,' but with 3 billion potential mates on the planet (unless, of course, you are bisexual), how can a person ever be absolutely positive that you met 'the one?' Secondly, and of this I am sure, if you must ask yourself if 'this is the one,' then most certainly this one is not. I may not be a trained psychotherapist, but having been 'around the block' since I was 15 and being in relationships of one sort or the other all my life, I feel I have a lot of 'hard knocks' training. I tend to agree with the character played by Andrew McCarthy in St. Elmo's Fire where he states that the concept of spending the rest of one's life with the same person was a myth created in a time when we were lucky to live past the age of 30 for being eaten by dinosaurs. You take what Life serves you, whether it's caviar or cabbage. It is what you make of that caviar or cabbage that counts. [Gad, I need another coffee.]

I thought it would give you a chuckle.

Is that what we want - more optics or more substance? I don't give a rats ass if GM or Ford have a private jet on standby. Considering both companies have global operations, I certainly feel better if Wagoner and Mullaly can (and do!) visit their plants, offices, etc. to see first hand what is going on, rather than getting an edited report from a flunky. Considering the delays and BS at most major airports these days (and the cost of a ticket when you book it the day before), I don't think it is unreasonable to have them (and their attendant staff) fly together so they can conduct business (or sleep) while in-flight. It's the same kind of $h! we see in politics: the media focuses on the salaries of the politicians and their office perks, but the real waste in politics is with the 'committees' and the 'commissions.' Toronto, for example, is currently spending $11 million taxpayer's dollars to 'study' tearing down a 1.5 mile chunk of our only downtown expressway. I once asked a prominant lawyer at Exxon how it is possible for politicians to spend that kind of money 'studying' something. His reply: in the public sector there is no limit to the number of silly questions or scenarios that can be posed. Mullaly's handlers should have made sure a Ford was waiting to pick them up at the airport, though. That is stupid.

Guys never say no, do they? OCN: don't over-analyse... When it 'happens' (whatever that is) it will. If it never does, don't worry about that either and move on. It sounds cliche, but when two persons click, they are just naturally on the same page. If it becomes forces, then it isn't working. My two cents.

Maybe they should come up here. Teachers up here are paid like the UAW. Their benefits are second to none. I have a few friends who have been teaching for 15+ years and they make $65k a year - plus, with all their holidays, etc. On the other hand, with all the disrespect they get from the kids and the parents, I'm not sure I could handle being a teacher, even with 8 weeks off in the summer, 2 weeks in December and 2 weeks in March.