CARBIZ

Roo, if you'd hang around here long enough, what you would realize is that as GM fans we are very well aware of GM's shortcomings; however, the general consensus is that Toyota and Honda literally get away with murder by the media, and by default the public in general. We don't need to trumpet GM's failings, we have the media to do that for us. We do, however, need to point out Toyota's failings at every turn because nobody else out there is. Poke around at some of the other threads here: we love to poke fun at GM's cheap interiors (getting better) and half-fast marketing ploys, but GM's successes do need to be trumpeted. Nobody is defensive; we are just fed up with the free ride Japan Inc. gets in North America.

BRAVO!!!

Ah, Neon, two fallacies: 1) the longer nose serves two purposes. The first being to give an extra star on the crash rating. The Venture only had a 4-star crash rating; the extra length gave the extra star - more metal between you and them. Secondly, and this is far more subjective, it gets away from the "minivan" look and more toward the SUV. It is very subject, I will admit, but for most people it works. 2) The Uplander is market priced. In the greater Toronto area, the Uplander is $18,999 and the Caravan is $17,999 BUT for the thousand bucks you get: Onstar power windows and door locks and mirrors ABS 17" wheels and 4 wheel discs the Oil Life Monitor....and a lot more. The Caravan gives you a/c, Cd, a smaller engine and dubious automatic. That's it. Oh, and 16" wheels. Rear drums. No ABS. No power nothing (I know that is a double negative.) Maybe you should've come to Canada.

Well, it is good to have another Toyota/Honda apologist out there. Lord knows there aren't enough of them! Let me leave you with another thought. I was thinking about this as I was reading my morning paper. I am going to throw this statement out there and I want people to consider it in the broader context of what is happening globally. Remember: if you buy a $30,000 car, even if only 1/3 of it leaves North America, that is a lot of cash. Buying a Japanese car (and to lesser extent German) is tantamount to cultural and political suicide. Japan Inc. is growing in global power. What most people are missing is that the Japanese home market has been stagnant for over a decade. The common people of Japan are mired in economic recession. The banks are in crisis over there; the housing market was leveraged too much. Yet all of this has been happening while large Japanese corporations are seeing more and more of their economic power overseas and all of this against the backdrop of a deliberately depressed currency. Why has this happened? I would wager that MITI is orchestrating this. The common people are paying for Japanese foreign corporate expansions, just like they would in any conventional war. MAKE NO MISTAKE: MITI HAS THE EAR OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND THEIR SOLE PURPOSE FOR EXISTENCE IS TO TARGET AND DEMOLISH FOREIGN MARKETS. Toyota and Honda have executed an impressive volley of shots over the past 20 years. First, they got lucky: while Detroit floundered around trying to figure out how to build fuel sipping cars, Japan already had them. Then with the help of puppets in the media, they secured their beach head with luxury cars. Just to ensure Washington couldn't object, they opened a few assembly plants here, making sure they were in States where the governor could become their spokesperson. Pitting American job against American job, Japan Inc. has been secure knowing that every time Detroit closed a plant somewhere, Japan Inc. could triumphantly point to one of their plants opening somewhere else. Throw in a select group of accountants to muddy the waters and an unusually contrite media, and now we are to believe Toyota is as American as apple pie. I mean, how do we really know how many people work for Toyota or for GM, right? As I have tirelessly said, our company owns TWO Toyota stores and a GM store. There are just as many bodies buried in the back yard at Toyota, but nobody talks about them. I am 45 and just old enough to have lived through the Perfect Storm of the '70s (CAFE ratings, pollution controls, two energy crises and ever increasing government intervention) and can understand what has gotten us from there to here. I also understand that there is clearly a different mindset with the import buyer. I am talking about the average buyer, not some of the self-appointed experts that populate this board. These people will justify thousands of dollars in maintenance, higher insurance and all sorts of injustices just because they bought an Audi, or Lexus or whatever. Most people don't keep good records and when challenged they will bluster that their car has been a "good" car, but they really are only following the party line. And who can blame them? If you deliberately spend $5,000 more for a Camry over the same-equipped Impala, you would be loathe (publicly, at least) to admit that you f**ked up! It is good to have choices, and I don't believe it will be the end of the world if GM settles on 20% market share here and with Lutz calling the shots I have faith that GM will regain its luster in the media's eye eventually. Just don't dare try to tell me that buying a Toyota or Honda is not causing some degree of harm to our way of life. Period.

Yeah, this is a point that the media seems to keep missing. Even if GM drops to 20% market share in the U.S. and stabilizes there. Even if Toyota rises to 15-18% market share in the U.S. and stabalizes there - that doesn't necessarily spell doom for GM because of its successes in other areas. However, it does beg the question that if GM can build profitable, fun small cars and trucks elsewhere, why can't they seem to get the car market right here?

Chrysler's problems have always been the mirror opposite of GM's: Chrysler has great looking packaging but no substance. Flimsy transmissions, poor build quality have hampered them for about 20 years; however, this has been masked by their reinventing themselves every few years and bringing out some kick ass products. The original LH cars were pretty revolutionary 12 years ago; the Ram went from being an "also-ran" to a player in the same time frame. But like putting a wedding dress on a donkey, you can only do so much until the groom discovers she is still a donkey. Even now, wrapping the entire company around an engine? Is the consumer too stupid to remember why the hemi went away in the first place? They were gas guzzlers, expensive to build, expensive to fix. Kudos to Chrysler's marketing boys for putting on a prettier dress on the donkey, but.....it's still a donkey. I happen to like Chrysler's new, edgy styling, but the blocky, athletic look isn't for everyone and wrapping all of the companies products in the same styling is risky.

I was slammed up against my car in a parking lot by a woman in a 2000 Corolla who "jack-rabbit" started her car. After I picked myself up off the pavement, I marvelled over the fact that the supposedly superior Jap-crap didn't have a clutch lock out to prevent that - the crappy Cavalier has had that for years! Then another woman in a Rav4 ran a red light in her CR-V and slammed into the side of my (then) new Blazer. She claimed she didn't see the red light, but then she was from Markham and we were downtown. From where I sit, most of the people driving Toyotas in my neighborhood are "new Canadians," and quite frankly, they can't drive. I see all sorts of wierd things: left hand turns from the right lane on one way streets, U-turns in the middle of the intersection, but most of all people who are just intimidated by driving at all. HOW DO THEY GET THEIR LICENSE?

Roo, just so that we can be sure your eyesight isn't off, the difference between your beloved Honda and Chevrolet is 1.1 to 1.24 problems. WOW! A TENTH OF A PROBLEM PER VEHICLE!!!!!!!! I'm going to get rid of my Malibu right now! Incidentally, Honda's problems dropped 83% in one year and Chevrolet's dropped 87% in one year - which in of theirselves poses a problem for me. How can problems drop in HALF in one year? OH, and that is spread across 24 Chevy models (10 cars, 6 pick ups, 5 SUVs, 2 passenger vans, 1 cargo van) versus 10 Honda models. How hard can it be to juggle 10 models versus 24? As we have seen over at Toyota, as they unveil more and more models, they are running into troubles (breaking suspensions on their SUVs/trucks, tranny problems on their new Camry, etc). It is harder to juggle 24 balls than to juggle 24. And nobody is trying to make excuses for their favorite brand; we are only trying to figure out how a brand like Hyundai can go from the bottom (where it has been for years and years) to the top, and how Buick can go from near the top to near the bottom - in a single year! There are statistical anamolies, to be sure.

Roo, your ignorance knows no bounds First of all, buying an Impala, which is built in Canada is not the same thing as buying a Honda built in Ohio - not even close. Let me explain to you why. First of all (and most importantly), Canada participates in mutual trade with the U.S. Canadians buy over 1 million Fords, Chryslers and GM vehicles EVERY year. How many American cars do Japanese consumers buy every year? 15,000? Maybe 25,000? Japan is a closed market. Foreign companies are not welcome. MITI blocks them at every turn. Just ask Toys R Us, or Houdaille in Texas or hundreds of other American companies that are either blocked or forced into "partnerships" to sell or build things in Japan. GM and Ford are wholly owned American companies. Toyota and Honda are not. That much should be obvious, but I take nothing for granted. You seem to revel in the fact that as Japan opens plants in North America and GM and Ford close them that there is somehow some sense of balance. Again, not even close. GM and Ford directly and indirectly employ more than 3 times the North Americans. A good case in point would be Toyota hiring 900 workers in Woodstock, Ontario recently while GM and Ford lay off 3,400 in Ontario. Great math! It isn't about being "scared" into buying a domestic. It is about national security and fairness. Japan Inc. does not fight fair. MITI sees to that. I have to ask you, though - if the Camry and Impala were equal (and in my opinion they are - even the Toronto Star, which hates GM, says that!), why wouldn't you buy an Impala? Nobody would ask you to buy something that is clearly inferior, but if you test drove an Impala and Camry, or Corolla and Cobalt and determined that they were at least equal, wouldn't it make sense to keep your money in North America? Toshiba, Hitachi and Matsu$h!a ran RCA, Zenith and others either into bankruptcy or were absorbed by Japanese companies because MITI subsidized them with sugar import quotas throughout the 1960s to offset their losses in North America. Even Iaccoca spoke of the heads of Nissan, Honda, etc. having regular meetings in Japan in his first book. Why would you want to support a country that treats foreign trade like a war?

OMIGOD, like one example out of 25 million vehicles is statistically accurate - that's worse sampling than CR!!! You would pick the one car that Toyota built that came with anything other than an engine! Do the math: if GM sold 5 million cars in a year and 1% of them had problems, then that is 50,000 pissed off customers. If Toyota sold 500,000 vehicles in the same year and had the same 1% break down rate, that is only 5,000 pissed off customers. Cumulatively, and with amazing anecdotal evidence such as fuel_sipping's, there are a lot of potentially more pissed off GM customer's with axes to grind. I have no proof of this, only 45 years of keeping my eyes open and loving vehicles, but I would wager that the proportion of GM's sold in any given year in the '80s came packed with more features (a/c, automatic, power windows, etc.) than comparable Toyota's or Honda's - or are we forgetting that Toyopet and Honda were first econoboxes, then later technically sophisticated? Yes, once the Acuras came out in '87, the technical sophistication of Toyota and Honda rose dramatically; however, throughout much of the decade the Tercel, early Corollas and Civics were sold with 5 spds and rarely a/c!

...or your Odyssey burning to the ground in broad daylight... ...or your new Camry being towed back to the dealer because the automatic just crashed ....or standing on the side of the highway because the computer on your Prius just conked out.. isn't anecdotal stuff fun?

Hell, it would appear that I am more patriotic for American products than some Americans are! LOL. When I chose my cell phone, I decided that it didn't much matter which phone I chose, that I would get gouged by all of them equally, but I finally decided on Bell, which is a Canadian company, over AT&T or any of the others. My logic was that if I was going to get hosed, at least some executive in Montreal will be getting the money, rather than some guy in New York. That is the way I look at cars, which are far more important to the economy in NOrth America than cell phones. All things being equal (and I truly believe that they are), I would rather by an American car, built by an American car company where the vast majority of the parts, technology, and design are American. The odds are far better that some fat cat in Detroit is going to buy a cottage in Muskoka and maybe stop at Wal-Mart on his way up and drop $100 in the Canadian economy than some Tojo in Japan. GM (and Ford, Chrysler) have historically invested hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in North America. Toyota and HOnda will never come close. I find it amusing that people are making the assumption that Japan Inc are building factories here because Amercans are more efficient and cheaper. That is a laugh. Someone needs a serioius lesson in labor econonics and Japanese trade practices. There is only one reason Honda and Toyota built plants in North America: to avoid tariffs. Canada and the U.S. have enjoyed a special trade relationship since the Auto Pact was realized in 1965. After that point, parts and vehicles could travel across the border virtually duty free. This trade relationship is MUTUALLY beneficial because over 1 million American cars and trucks are sold here every year, so it behooves American manufacturers to spread some of the wealth around. Not so for Japan Inc. Their vehicles were not part of the Auto Pact and were slapped with heavy duties. Japan INc is many things but stupid is not one of them. After the backlash of the initial incursion of Japanese cars in the early '80s, Japan Inc. got wise and decided they had better start building some cars here before somebody in Washington (or Ottawa) woke up and realized somoene else was having a free ride at our expense. DO NOT THINK THAT FOR ONE SECOND HONDA AND TOYOTA WOULDN'T GLEEFULLY CLOSE NORTH AMERICAN PLANTS ONCE THEY NO LONGER HAVE DETROIT TO KICK AROUND. Juding by the reaction to some on this board, I would say they are already more than 3/4 of the way to having acheived their goal.

Yeah, I heard about this from a few people that live out that way. Good thing it has been cool lately or else we'd be stocking up on candles again, like in '03. With clean coal technology available in Europe and with 500 years supply of coal just across the border in Pennsylvania, I think it is a shame that Ontario isn't exploring the coal option a little more. But McGuinty promised the coal plants will come down and come down they are!

Dealers are privately owned businesses, and because of that they are populated by the same number of a-holes as other businesses. It is the nature of the commission structure that tends to bring out the worst in some of them. I think Saturn will be on the right track again, once it starts importing (or building here?) non-watered down versions of Opels. I have driven many of these vehicles and they are exactly what North America needs as we head into the $5 a gallon range.

You've conveniently ignored where the PROFITS go and about your helping Japan buy up Washington, that's fine. I've forgot where the posting is, but as I said, you're new - but recently we bashed this post to death and someone posted the domestic content for American versus imports. If I remember correctly, GM & Ford were around 60% and Toyota, Honda were 50% or something like that, but even those numbers conveniently ignore where the profits go and only really talk about hard products like windshields and tires, not soft products like research and design. Nobody from Japan has anything on this shore to rival GM's Technical Center. If America loses that, she loses a lot of proprietary technology to Japan Inc. - again. If you want to justify your Honda, then you are correct that this is a FREE world and a FREE economy. But don't try to rationalize that your purchase is no different than if you buy a foreign made pair of shoes. The backbone of North America is manufacturing, but not just who BUILDS the widgets but who OWNS the trademarks, patents and assets. Do you think the 13 year old who makes running shoes in Thailand knows anything about building the factory she is in? Or will she ever hope to one day run it? If Detroit goes down, then the most vital pilar of American manufacturing prowess will be gone and with it, all future technologies and development. Just look at where all the current technologies in electronics are coming from, yet America once owned the television and radio market. I wonder how fast the plant in Ohio will be shut down if Ford and GM disappear?

Well, then sir, Toyota's marketing campaign has succeeded - they've convinced you. SIGH I've said this before, but you're new here so I'll say it again: Buying a Japanese car is not like buying a pair of Nikes made in Singapore. If you can't see the downside to sending $30,000 to foreign soil, then you need a hard lesson in economics. Japan Inc. is doing just enough to convince people like YOU that they are as American as applie pie. Most of the parts, most of the technology and design all come from Japan. The profits also go to Japan. Most of the high paying, technical jobs are in Japan. Don't be fooled by a few warehouse and parts assembly jobs in Ohio and California. Ford and GM employ, directly and indirectly more North Americans than all the import companies combined. I'll leave you with two thoughts: 1) Japan's trade surplus with the U.S. (and Canada) is being balanced by their buying up of treasury bills. At some point, Tokyo is going to be telling Washington what to do. 2) Detroit was once the "arsenal of democracy." How humble will the U.S. President have to be to politely ask the Prime Minister of Japan if he can possibly commandeer a few assembly plants to build tanks and guns to fight the next war? The only reason the navy doesn't have to ask Japan to build its next aircraft carrier is because some American shipyards survived on American military contracts when the Korean and Japanese companies ran the AMerican ship builders out of business. So, go ahead and drive your Ohio-built Honda and know that an engineer in Osaka is sending his kid to university on your purchase when your kids are flipping burgers.

If you can't tell the difference between "Born in Japan, Made in the USA" versus the others, then we have a serious problem. Japan is a closed market. Ford, GM, Fiat, VW, and the others are virtually banned from building or marketing vehicles in Japan. GM, Ford, etc. build and sell cars in Canada; they build and sell cars in Europe. THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JAPANESE MARKET AND THE EUROPEAN OR NORTH AMERICAN MARKET. You have to understand that the Japanese Big Five enjoy a virtual monopoly in Japan. Even Mercedes and BMW can't sell that many vehicles there. MITI blocks and harasses outside, foreign companies at every turn. Besides, building an American car built in Mexico creates jobs in Mexico and maybe will keep a few extra illegals on THAT side of the border. LOL

Y'know - I don't know why you guys think the dealers always screw the customers Around here, a lube/oil is $32.95 - $3 more than crappy tire, yet they will upsell you to their "premium" service for $4 more anyway! Besides, crappy tire, etc. don't have access to GM's service computer so they can address any service bulletins, stc. Make no mistake, when the vehicle is newer, it makes sense to let the dealer look at it. Toyota and Honda have always taken advantage of this because they have programmed their customers to return to the dealer and then the dealer gets the chance to fix all the factory mistakes without the customer knowing.

I believe is has already been proven that there is a strong bias in the media. The recent BusinessWeek piece is proof of that (spinning that Toyota's steering problems are actually okay.) There is a strong disconnect between what the public desires and what the media tells them they desire. We see it on this board, too where expensive, useless featuers (like DVD nagivation) get rave reviews for their availability on cheap cars (like the Civic) while more significant advances (like electric steering) get pooh-poohed. We see it in the way minivans are dismissed, but it is minivans that most families NEED. How else can you explain the rise of the luxury marques like BMW? Nobody can actually drive those vehicles they way they were designed (unless you count the a-holes that veer in and out of traffic on the expressway Friday nights!), nobody knows how to use half the gadgets on them, most people driving them can't afford the lease payment or the $2,000 tires, nobody can actually enjoy their harsh ride on our frost-heave riddled roadways, but BMW has been made the new Pontiac by the media - because the MEDIA want to drive BMWs.

Geesixer, we've HEARD about Toyota's problems, but BusinessWeek has determined that it doesn't matter, that recalls are a strength for Toyota and that your steering shaft breaking is okay, even at highways speeds, because at least your steering isn't electric. You should get lots of road feel as your right front wheel comes off and your car rolls over! LOL

Let's set aside the pros and cons of unionization for a moment: after 27 years of loyalty at the same company, then along comes a new owner and slashes your pay by 50%? You wouldn't be pissed, too? Don't be misled by the myth of fat cat salespeople - those days are long gone. The only GM salespeople still making money ARE the ones who have been doing it for a long time and who have worked very hard to gain customer trust and loyalty. Sounds to me like Sonic are a bunch of a-holes. They are taking a big chance clearing out their veteran salespeople in this fierce market and replacing them with rookies. I am not a big fan of unions; however, Sonic represents the very reason many places do organize. Most salespeople I know work very long hours, are expected to be on-call at all times to be there at any customer's whim and are used to having their pay plans jiggled every year, according to the prevailing whimsy of management. In this area, many of the GM dealers are being run into the ground by second generation brats, whose constant temper tantrums and outrageous displays of callousness are terrorizing their employees while daddy basks in the sun in Scarsdale. GM does not need this volatility at their grass roots level.

Capriceman, give it up, Toyota and HOnda have WON the PR war. They got burned in the early '80s and learned. I will give them credit for that. NOw they have their own cheering section in Business Week, CR, etc. and soon even Wall Street will be convinced that it is good to buy Toyota or Honda because, after all the Tokyo stock market is 1/4 the size of New York, but -wait, what's that? Where are all those American Treasury bills going? TRADE DEFICIT? CURRENT ACCOUNT DEFICIT? GO BUY A F**KING TOYOTA. When the Prime Minister of Japan is telling the next President what to do, then you can all whine.

GEESIXER, you're new here. We've beaten this subject to death. It has already been established by the Enthusiasts (so appointed): 1) Electric steering is bad because you can't tell what flavour of asphalt you are driving on. You are supposed to haul on the wheel with both hands, dont' ya know? Forget about infinite boosts, no hydraulic hoses to burst or wear out, or still retaining power boost on engine stall - those things don't matter. 2) GM's 4 spd auto, although deemed by many to be the most reliable, smoothest and efficient tranny on the road, is automatically crap because now Toyota has a 6 spd - even if that 6 spd doesn't work all that often. 3) People want to make love to their dashboards, so we must have soft, feely plastics everywhere, even up under the seats where the springs are. 4) It isn't enough that GM pioneered OnStar, or that it tried to make ABS standard on every car it made, or that things like automatic headlights, retained accessory power, delayed locks and other USEFUL items that people actually USE have been on virtually all GM vehicles for several years - no, none of that matters. Instead, we will bitch about the lack of DVD navigation in a Cobalt or telescoping wheel on the Impala - those oversights are travesties! And don't get me started on the old pushrod versus OHC debate, that can get you killed around here!

Save your money and buy the Panasonic AirWare XM. My other half gave me one for my birthday and I got rid of all my Cds. The AirWare can hook up directly through an Ipod connection, or broadcast FM directly to the radio in your Buick. In Toronto, I don't even use the cradle/antenna DC connector - the reception is fine without it. On long trips, or outside the city (XM has a repeater station in many major cities) I use the antenna kit. The advantage is that the unit acts as a Walkman (just plug in the headphones, it already has a rechargeable battery) AND a docking station for your home stereo. I am totally hooked on this machine. It is EXTREMELY rare that a product actually delivers as promised, let alone EXCEEDS your expectations, but this unit has blown me away. Car units are fine, but you are then forced to only listen to it in your car, and if you get hooked (like I am), then you will have to pay for multiple subscriptions to then get a unit for your home. Skip the hassle and just get the portable. Oh, and it comes with a remote so you can sit on your ass and skip through the 120 channels at home!

Insurance and bank quotes are valueless. We get that $h! up here all the time "My banker says my car is worth $10 grand." My broker says my car is worth 5 grand." I just laugh. Are they buying the car? I had a guy with a '97 Taurs with 260,000 km on it, say it was worth $1,100 because the Ontario government said so. We offerd him $100. Sure, if he wants to safety it, clean it up, etc., maybe MAYBE he will get $1,000 for it PRIVATELY, but then is he actually ahead?