CARBIZ

I'm with Sixtyeight: most salespeople I know have no real loyalty to GM - they could just as soon go and sell Toyotas. In fact, most of them don't know anything about cars, the auto industry or (sigh) even LIKE automobiles. Twenty years ago, it probably didn't matter if you knew much about cars. If someone shopped Chevy, they may have shopped Plymouth or Ford, but that was there options. Yesterday, a customer told me they were shopping the Outlander against the Equinox. Outlander? Does anyone even sell those? Our Fleet Manager thought it was a Subaru. (Actually, for a moment, he had me convinced, too.) Frankly, it is impossible to keep up. The market in the Toronto area is hugely fragmented. We have every make within a 1 mile drive of us. I doubt that Buickman could run General Motors. I know I couldn't. However, I sometimes wonder if anyone in Detroit (or Oshawa) gets out of their ivory tower and actually visits dealers and talk to the salespeople. Forget the sales managers: they don't know much either. And, as was pointed out above, forget about the dealers in the loyal areas, try the big markets where it is becoming a blood bath with Japan Inc. It is the sales people who are in the trenches. We put up with the ranting when customers are pissed off about the way ads are written. We have to translate them. We have to counter the BS that Japan Inc.'s cronies at MT, CR, etc. print every day. We have to explain to a 70 year old woman who has ALWAYS bought Chevrolet that she should still buy Chevrolet, even though her 30-something year old spawn are telling her to buy Honda. We have to explain that the squealing on their new brakes may be normal. We have to remember all the rates and residuals changes that GM dumps on us weekly, plus the offers in the ads........ Don't get me wrong. I love my job, but GM is a huge company and sometimes I suspect the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Sorry, folks, but I have to break up this little love-in to teach LTB51 a few facts of life. Sir, I don't mislead or confuse or befuddle my customers. I educate them to the total BS that we are having shoved down our throats by Japan Inc's war machine and by the lapdogs that we call the free press. If you truly believe that the Civic is the best small car out there, based on all the facts, then I want the phone number of your drug dealer because you are smoking better stuff than I can get. Off the HondaCanada website, a brand new 2006 Civic coupe DX-G with automatic (the way that 90% of the public wants them) sells for $20,530, plus freight for a price of $21,755. I might add that they charge $152 for a block heater (standard on the Cobalt) and $654 for fog lights (standard on the Cobalt LT). The AMAZING vehicle has 15" steel wheels with plastic covers, a 1.8 litre engine 140hp/128lb.ft. It has a 11.6 cu ft trunk (Cobalt has 14). The Cobalt is 145hp/155lb.ft - yeah, I know, torque doesn't matter. That's why Hondas and Mazdas sound like Moulinex mixers on acid as they whine by on the street. This vehicle leases out for $333+taxes=$383 a month. Their due on delivery is listed as $784, but that doesn't cover admin, registration or taxes, so I'll round that up to $1,300 - it could be more, but most dealers charge $3-400 for admin and taxes are 15%. Their buy back is listed as $9,444 and an interest rate of 5.9%. And judging by how rude the dealers in our area are, forget about discounts. I, on the other hand have (in stock) a 2006 LT coupe, with heated leather seats, sunroof, 16" Pirelli tires and alloy rims, side air bags, leather steering wheel with radio controls, 220W Pioneer system with 10" subwoofer, XM radio (3 months free) power sunroof, 4 spd automatic, which stickers at $24,470, for (ready for this) $304+txs = $350 with ONLY $350 due on signing. Now, to make it even with the Honda offer, my payment would be about $328 taxes in with $1,328 due on delivery. KEEPING UP SO FAR? So, Chevrolet can give you more power, leather, sunroof, a kick ass sound system, power everything, ABS, your precious safety stuff, a bigger trunk, bigger tires, better rubber, a split rear seat, easy entry front passenger seat (ever try and get in and out of a Honda? Didn't think so!), foldaway mirrors....well, I could go on AND $55 per month LESS. And $55X48=$2,640 and their buy back is $635 More (so much for Honda resale!) And you don't think a 4 year old Cobalt with leather seats, 16" Pirellis and a sunroof won't sell for more than a DX-G Civic????????? Are you high? I can give you a Cobalt SS sedan, with 2.4 litre engine, leather and sunroof for less money than the DX-G!!!! I, sir, deal in the real world. I get out and talk to the people driving these cars. Honda builds a good product, no question. But if you are a young person, at their first job, wouldn't $55 a month be better in your pocket????? People I deal with can barely afford $300 a month, let alone $380. As to the BS about Honda being a more durable car - again PTHHHHHHHHHHH.... DesRosiers marketing (Canadian equivalent of JD Powers) did a survey in 2000 and they discovered (horrors) that there were more American cars still on the road in both categories they studied (pre-1987 and post 1987) than Japanese, as a percentage of vehicles that were sold. They compared annual vehicle sales versus plates still licensed in Canada. They were at a loss to explain why this was the case. Perhaps Japanese cars were stolen more and sold for parts, perhaps they rusted and fell apart...who knows, but even the rag Toronto Star (which loves everything imported) expressed being intrigued by this. I could go on, but clearly you are already brainwashed and won't be swayed by facts. Oh, did I mention that I our company owns 2 Toyota stores. I know where the bodies are buried, sir.

At $4.50 a gallon up here in the Tundra, I am all for sexy, small SUVs. As the Rav4 and others get larger, it would be nice to have a small SUV to replace the Tracker. Of course, pricing and power plants would be crucial. The problem with the Optra is that it is under powered and the automatic is awful. This vehicle will do well here, if priced right and if it is at least a little fun to drive.

As to opening on holidays: quite simply, since the dealership doesn't pay the sales staff ANYTHING the management doesn't have a problem opening on holidays. You never see the dealer principal, General Manager or even usually the General Sales Manager on holiday weekends. Nowhere to be found. Up here in the hinterland, you could shoot a cannon off in the show room on a holiday Saturday through the summer and not hit anyone, but that doesn't stop management from having 12 or 14 disgruntled salespeople standing around all day. Need I remind people in the pushrod/OHC debate that Lutz challenged the idiots at the Toronto Star to a duel a couple years back and the lowly Grand Prix wiped the Maxima's ass all over the race course. Under the category of Tyranny of the Enthusiasts", the average consumer doesn't give a s**t about pushrods, 15 speed automatics or any of that CRAP. They only care because CR, MT and other rags tell them to care. I've challenged customers on what the advantage of a 5 spd transmisison is and WITHOUT EXCEPTION they shrug or mumble somethng that they read somewhere it was better. And to the clown, who on the previous page claims the Civic is a much better, safer car, etc. than the Cobalt. PTHHHHHHHHHHHHH...................... Take your rice sunglasses off and take a good look. If you only compare technical features and stuff that matters to auto journalists, then the Civic may have the edge. But if you look at the things that matter to the average consumer, the Civic is not better. How about not having a split folding rear seat? HOw about having not being able to pop the trunk from your remote fob? And I think $50 a month (the difference in a lease payment in this area) is something to talk about, unless you are Daddy Warbucks. The Civic may win in the Gee-Whizz department of Jetsons interiors, but that can work against them, too. The Civic looks good on paper, but in real driving conditions their lower torque numbers are not going to result in significantly better gas mileage than the Cobalt. I will concede that GM could have tried a little harder in the interior department, but then the LT coupe with the graphite interior is pretty sharp.

I'm indifferent. Mother mother, aunt and grandmother were all married 3 or 4 times in their lifetimes. Both my sisters are divorced. IF IT DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU GUYS, WHY SHOULD IT WORK FOR US?????? I think society is moving towards marriage contracts, similar to leasing a car. Marry him/her for 10 years. If you still feel the same way, then renew it. Religion be damned. The bible/Qu'aran/Torah/whatever never forsaw people living to an AVERAGE of 80 years old when those books were written. That is TWO life times. They also never forsaw the amount of leisure time and entertainment available to us in these times. Let's face it, if you worked 16 hour days in a field while the wife was at home raising 8 kids without benefit of Betty Crocker or the microwave, both parties were too tired to fool around or bang some chick in Vegas. Bush can do what he wants. In 10 years it will happen whether Christians like it or not.

The Toronto Star is a liberal rag and is irrelevant. I cancelled my subscription 3 years ago. This guy clearly knows nothing about cars when he can only whine about not having a locking gas cap cover. Oh sure, let some thief do $300 damage to your paint when he forces open the locking lid with any common screw driver so he can siphon $40 worth of gas. BRILLIANT. If you can't go to Canadian Tire, chump, and buy a $15 locking gas cap (which is nearly impossible to force off, cheaper and easier to use) then you are even a bigger loser than your boss, Mark Richardson. That paper is so clearly on Toyota's payroll that they don't even try to hide it.

Look, let's face it, the old seasonal nature of the car business is a mess. In the North, which is becoming less and less important to the car manufacturers in terms of over all sales, the months from December thru February are a write off - nobody wants to drive through a foot of snow to look at cars, unless they were just involved in a 8 car pile up on the freeway and don't have a choice! "Boxing Month" sales help a bit, but most of us take our vacations in January/February. The old traditional September launch probably helped with Fall sales in the past, but more and more we just see vultures looking for fire sales on previous year models through the Fall now. Some hapless customers still innocently inquire when the new cars come out and our shrug and indifference doesn't help. I mean, who knows? Tahoe in January, Avalanche in April..... I know model launches are expensive, but there is some logic to having a structured, seasonal launch. And GM's model launches used to be something the media drooled over; now, we see excitement for the new Accent or Fit, but a big who cares over the GM product. More and more GM is becoming irrelevant on the national stage. It is going to have to find something new or be wiped from the map.

We in the West have to realize that all of these debates, whether about age of consent, gay marriage, abortion, etc. are all possible because millions of people have died over the past couple thousand years to allow us the luxury of our "decadent" ways. Women and children were once chattels. Two hundred years ago, it was common in most cultures to be married by 12 or 13, but don't forget: people were usually worked to death by 35. Now, we have the luxury to sit back and say that children are precious and that childhood is golden. Personally, I think that is a lot of BS. Kids are far smarter and far more devious than society (or the Courts) allow for. Walk by any school yard and listen to the brats talk! And the definition of pedophile is someone who has sexual relations with "pre-pubescent youth," which in most cases is the age of 11 or 12. I am sure there is alot of legitimate child abuse, both sexual and non-sexual, out there, but I am suspicous of so-called child experts and the Courts themselves in their sensationalism and their current witch hunts. One of the first convictions acheived in Canada under our current child pornography laws was the 17 year old brother of one of my employees a few years back. He had had the misfortune of downloading a ton of porn, some of which involved pre-pubescent kids. The law came down on the poor kid like a ton of bricks. It truly was a joke, but not to him, of course. Kids are kids and sex is sex. I had my first sexual experience at the age of 6 with (gasp!) a 9 year old! When the law and child welfare people get involved, it only increases the feeling of guilt and makes what may have been just innocent experimentation or healthy curiousity turn into something ugly and dirty. But then, we in NOrth America seem to have a very bizarre love-hate relationship with sex anyway.

The news hasn't been all BAD. When GM finally did come out with the Venture in '97 it was at least as good as the Chrysler. And GM did manage to get 2 sliding doors on it in '98, before Ford did on theirs. GM's fold and tumble seats (which they also had on the APV) were much better than Chrysler's solid bench seat that weighed a ton. By 2000, GM's vans were the best, IMO, but that is when the trouble started. Our vans languished, while Toyota and Honda finally figured it out. So while the Venture stayed the same for 5 more model years, the Sienna and Odyssey got better and better. I haven't seen any Canadian figures, but in our area, the Uplander is our #1 selling truck. We have sold 1 Tahoe and maybe 30 or so HHRs, but about 1/3 of our truck sales are Uplanders, followed closely by the Equinox. We are paying over $4 a gallon up here, boys and girls.

SIGH. Gotta split my family up into the various branches. MOM AND DAD '59 Pontiac (when they were married) Vauxhall POS with no brakes '56 Ford (3 tone!) '57 Plymouth - Christine!!! First car I ever drove - I was 6! '66 Beetle there was a '65 Impala rental car I remember we took on a holiday.. DAD ON HIS OWN '66 Chrysler 300 '69 Chrysler 300 '76 LTD -hated it. rusted everywhere in 3 years! MOM & HUSBAND #2 '57 Ford wagon - barely made it to Vancouver in '67 '63 Ford Econoline - I had to sit on the engnie between the seats!!! '64 Fairlane - what can I say, husband #2 was a Ford man and loved duct tape '66 Pontiac wagon '63 Pontiac convertible - only ran twice, then sat behind the shed for two years '67 Caprice - my childhood favorite - 2 door, console '67 Chrysler Newport - first car I legally drove '80 Ford Econoline - customized, shag carpet, cherry wood, mural, the works '79 Datsun 510 MOM & HUSBAND #3 '83 Olds Cutlass '91 Grand Voyager '97 Grand Voyager '01 Gran Caravan NOTHING BUT CRAP SINCE THE '80S!!!!!

GM is always doing some kind of promotion, whether it is something as audaceous as Employee Pricing, or "under the radar" stuff like direct offers to existing customers (Oldsmobile Loyalty) and "lease pull ahead" programs. THESE ARE NOTHING MORE THAN TOOLS FOR A SALESPERSON TO USE OR IGNORE. It still takes a good salesperson to slow the customer down, get them off price and to SELL the vehicle. You'd all be happy to know that I have a thick dossier of articles and links that I have copied from C&G, so that when a customer declares that the SS Cobalt isn't a Civic (happened to me the other day), I can happily reply,"And that is a good thing." I can show them about Honda and Toyota's lying abouth their hp numbers, about how Toyota has had more recalls (as a percentage of vehicles on the road) than GM and Ford. This is called SELLING. The only thing I truly HATE are the stupid newspaper print ads that GM (and everyone else!) run. You know, you've seen them: $169 a month, for 60 months with $1,500 down. First of all, you gotta break it to the customer that the $1,500 is actually $4,000 on delivery (no joke!) and then the advertised vehicle is a 5 spd with no air. Let me tell you, a customer on a $169 payment does not have $4,000. THey just walk out. Kia and Hyundai are worse in our market: they advertise the same $169 and say NO MONEY DOWN, but, in fact, want nearly $2,000 up front. This type of advertising is counter productive and just STUPID.

Overall, a good article, but I disagree that the $1.99 gas promotion in California and Florida was a bad idea. It only appears to be a bad idea because certain media have decided that it is a bad idea. As has been discussed here, other manufacturers are doing the same thing across North America, and by GM's own admission the gas promotion will amount to an average of $1,000 or so discount per truck sold. Friedman is an ass, and I would rather see the New York Times get bought out by the National Enquirer. AT LEAST WITH THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER YOU KNOW YOU WILL GET A GOOD LAUGH.

I know that minivans get no respect on this board; however, for 90% of the people out there a minivan is a far better choice than any SUV. Not even the Tahoe can touch a minivan for ride, cost of ownership, versatility and just every day driving. Hauling around 5 or 6 people in an Uplander (for example) will cost significantly less than a Trailblazer or Tahoe AND most likely will do the job better. I mean, how many people actually tow with the damned things? I look at some 5' woman sitting alone in her Pathfinder and I think it is just silly. Under the headline "Tyranny of the Enthusiasts," SUVs are freaks and I warrant that in 20 years we will look back at the '95-'05 SUV craze and shake our heads.

What is Chrysler doing???? The Sebring used to be a clean, good looking car. Now it just looks like everything else. Why is everyone trying to out Japanese the Japanese?

Not really. Whereas the Tahoe is sold down there as the Grand Blazer, at R2.36 a litre, there aren't many takers. But that is an interesting point: GM sells state of the art Opel-based products down there AND the dead heads that are discontinued here.

I don't know what that truck is, but that isn't the Montana I saw in Brazil last year. The truck you have pictured I did see as well, and it looked like a thinly disguised old style Blazer. The Montana that Chevy sells down there is a small truck, 4 cylinder, flex-fuel. The ones in Sao Paulo (richer area of the country) were all decked out with alloy wheels and tonneau covers; in the north they were more spartan. If I could figure out how to post pictures on this thread I would post some cool pics of a Montana I snapped in Sao Paulo. I also took pics inside a Chevy store in Sao Paulo - they had a 2003 (used) Chevy Omega (rebadged Catera) selling for $R65,000. OUCH.

I see a few of them around the Toronto area. A guy on my street has one. It fits perfectly between the sidewalk and his garage - a tiny space that no normal car would fit in. So, yeah, they definitely have their place in an urban market. They aren't cheap, though: basically $20,000 around here - the same price as a 4 cylinder Malibu, I might add.

Very interesting read. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions; I dare say this is probably one of those cases. Washington believes, by weight of having an 11 trillion dollar economy, that it can drag the emerging markets out of their squalor and up to our level of standard of living. Unfortunately, I don't think this is working. It worked to a certain extent with Japan, in that their workers now enjoy a decent standard of living and their labor market isn't really any cheaper than AMerica's; however, Japan Inc does tax their people to help support the economic wars being fought around the globe - import taxes, cheap money for domestic multi-nationals, etc. One only has to visit any Asian country to realize what we are up against. They do not play by our rules, they do not respect our rules and what they say about the "almond eyes" behind our backs would make even the most PC liberal's eyebrows raise.

The New York Times has always been a puffed up rag and should go the way of Dan Rather. I just came across a piece that when the world famous father of rocketry, Robert Goddard, declared in the late teens that man would one day walk on the moon, the New York Times declared that he was in imbecile and that every grade school student KNEW that rockets could't fly in a vacuum. Three days before Neil Armstrong walked on the moon, the New York Times published an apology, saying that they had been wrong. Some things never change.

If you look up "dysfunctional family" in the dictionary, you will see a picture of us. I gave my sister a photo I found in my dad's things a few years ago. In the photo, my blood father (maybe) is standing in front of his '49 Olds. Beside him is my mother's second husband and in that man's arms (he was 6'3") is her current (so far) husband (who is about 5'3"). I put the caption: "All my father's" across the top of the picture and framed it. My mother ran off with my father's best friend when I was 6, then ran off with both their best friends about 15 years later. All three of these men went to school together. My mother's sister did the same thing. When her first husband gassed himself (because he was sleeping with his daughter and my aunt found out), she ran off to Vancouver with his best friend. Then when the money was gone, he left and she married a business associate of theirs. My grandmother married her husband's best friend in 1950 (surely a scandal back then!) and when he died of a heart attack in 1968 (by working three jobs to keep her in fur coats and pearls), she married his best friend and also moved to Vancouver. For my 18th birthday, my mother informed me that the man whom she married in 1960 may NOT have been my father. In fact, they broke off their engagement in the Spring of 1960 and while she had a wild summer, she realized she was pregnant and they got married in October 1960. I was born 5 months later. Hmmm. At 18, I apparently was the spitting image of some guy she was "dating" in the summer of 1960. Both my sisters are currently divorced. My youngest sister having slept with one of the manager's in our (then) company we had together - they are (for now) married. With all these female role models, is it any wonder I am gay? In fact, the only reason I think I escaped this family in one piece (I haven't spoken to my mother in 5 years and my father killed himself in 1985 - long after they divorced) is because I had a "gay shield." LOL So, should my memoirs be in Science Fiction, comedy, or horror?

I give GM credit for trying with those vans. Chrysler got lucky and hit a bulls eye with their first minivans. Other than originally only being available with an anemic 4 cylinder, the Chrysler vans were the right size and the right packaging. Ford and GM both went the wrong way with the RWD Astro/Safari and Aerostars. The dustbusters were smaller inside than the 2nd generation Chrysler van, which came out about the same time. The seats were better in the dustbusters. The ride was better. Some people complained about the huge dash and windshield. They were wierd to drive at first, but you got used to that. If you look at the market in '91, they were pretty good for their time. I recall test driving the all-new Previa at the time, which was also pretty wierd looking. The dustbusters were at least as good as the Previa, although the Toyota had more room inside. GM finally got smart and just blatantly copied Chrysler in '97 with the Venture. Unfortunatley, as is too often the case, GM only designed for where Chrysler had been in '95/'96, not where Chrysler was going. But then, Honda, Ford and Toyota all made the same mistake, too.

GM is not the only one guilty of doing this. Ford makes a cute little car called the Ka, which I saw everywhere in Brazil last year. Friends of ours in Sao Paulo bought a Chevy Astra - what a great car, and not much smaller than the Malibu, really. Everybody drives a manual shift down there, even the buses! But then gasoline was R2.36 a litre when we were down there (about R9.50 a gallon) and I don't care about the conversion to U.S. dollars because Brazilians get paid in "reals" and a secretary down there would make about R18,000. Brazil has also done something else wonderful - most of their vehicles are "flex-fuel," which means they will run on ethanol. Brazil's ethanol process is more efficient than ours, yielding 1.6 units of energy for every 1 unit expended; as compared to corn's 1.3. Of course, Bush has blocked Brazil from exporting ethanol to America. It would be a huge boon to Brazil's economy (and yet another nail in ours) if GM started exporting some of these great vehicles here. The Chevy MOntana is much better looking than our Colorado.

The common people of Japan are paying for Japan Inc's foreign expansions. Just look at how stagnant the domestic economy has been over their this past decade. Large companies in Japan have long enjoyed cheap money so that they can expand their foreign holdings, not to mention a depressed yen. MITI is real. They spearheaded the assault on the electronics market in the '60s and have been orchestrating the automotive market for 30 years. I guess for the average North American, none of this matters when they rush out and buy their new Camry or Altima. For me, fair is fair: if Japan EVER allowed one single foreign owned car company to open a single plant on their soil, or ever allowed significant auto imports from ANY country, whether Peugeot, BMW, Mercedes - ANYBODY, then I would allow myself to consider a Japanese car.

That sucks! I've seen this happen at many dealerships in and around my area. The new manager has to show his/her "stuff." Loyalty and hard work count for little any more. Weak managers just want a bunch of "yes" men/women. I've been fired before (had a power struggle in my own company and my family ganged up on me!), but it is always for the best. A year from now you will look back and be glad this happened. We have a saying at my dealership. When we are introduced to a new manager, of whatever department, I always shake their hand and say: "OF ALL THE MANAGERS I HAVE MET, YOU ARE THE MOST RECENT." Profound, funny and the longer I stay in this business, the more true I realize that saying is.

Well, Seigen, how many examples of media bias would make you happy? How about the current controversy with Friedman and the New York Times, conveniently ignoring Toyota's increasing truck sales, or the fact that the Tahoe gets better gas mileage than the Sequoia (this has been beaten to death on two other threads recently.) He advocates the annhilation of GM by Detroit. NAH, THAT ISN'T BIASED. Okay, how about the Toronto Star (my favorite whipping boy) placing just the mere fact that some troll of a lawyer is trying to round up enough people and evidence to MAYBE have a class action suit in big, headlines above their name mast on the front page of the paper. Oh, and 800k Toyotas being recalled due to the front wheels falling off - buried in the business section. BTW, that rag ignored Toyota and Honda's lying about horsepower numbers, yet the Star went rabid 3 years ago over Hyundai doing far less with their falsified horsepower numbers. How about Bob Lutz accusing the Star of bias, and then challenging them to a duel, about 4 years ago. The Grand Prix, which the Star had slammed, kicked the Maxima's ass all over the tarmac. The Star printed a huge rectraction, allowing that "sometimes" the media has "preconceptions" when going into a test drive. How about the mass media coverage of the CR top 10 this year all being Japanese, yet the media carped that Detroit was shut out, conveniently ignoring that BMW, Mercedes and other far more expensive and suppposedly superior vehicles were also shut out. Or how about CR calling the new Avalon's separating frame, suspension problems and tranny problems "blemishes" and "first year teething problems." TELL ME SOMETHING, DO YOU EVEN READ WHAT IS POSTED HERE?