rkmdogs

Eric, The big ogre that I initially was thinking about was the friction horsepower. For those of you who may never have read Internal Combustion Engines, which was a college text written by Prof. Edward F. Obert, he discusses this design factor in the section called: performance factors. He says that this is a very difficult to determine even with operating and test conditions on a working engine. He defines it as the power that is used to overcome the internal friction in the engine from the number and surface area of the moving parts, the induction of the fuel-air charge and also the delivery of the exhaust gases. The math equation he uses says that: indicated horsepower equals brake or delivered horsepower plus frictional horsepower. A measure of some of it is accomplished by turning an engine with an external electric dynamometer(engine not firing), but other factors such as oil temp, throttle setting, rpm must be fixed and noted. This factor then helps in determining a given engines' mechanical efficiency. Maybe I did not fix enough of the variables when I set up this question?

Dumping the Astro was a typical GM dumb move! I have had 7 vans in my life so far. A '73Dodge 1T, '78Dodge3/4T maxi,'86Dodge 1TLWB,'88Astro,'95AstroAWD,2001Explorer15pass-1T,and currently a 2000Astro AWD. I have been out car shopping for the past 4 weeks. There is nothing out there that compares to the functionality of the Astro. Does it have shortcomings? Definitely YES! But compared to what is currently out there, I'll keep my Astro and do an engine swap when necessary! The HHR came the closest to matching functionality of the interior, and the Dodge Grand Caravan came in 2nd. If they had gotten smart earlier and added the street-side door to the Astro, extended its' nose, like the Venture, swapped in the 4200 I-6, and kept the RWD, and offered foldable seats----- nothing out there could touch it! Are you listening GM???????

You smokin' them funny cigarettes again? The only car suitable for US roads and driving distances would be the Buick Royaum, ----- which is made by Holden, --- in Australia! That other Chinese crap isn't even worthy to be pooped out of somebodies tailpipe! And while our economy is bleeding to death, you want to give more money to the Chinese? You must really have a death wish!

I have not found any scale models of the HHR on the market..... anywhere! Has anybody out there seen any, or are aware of any being made? This is another area where GM marketing has dropped the ball!

And I thought that this was a website for car enthusiasts, not corporate me-too boys! Hold production--- why? Some people buy cars to use, not treat them as investments! If a car is selling well, it means that it is meeting needs-- of the buyer, not some corporate well-wisher who has other agendas! I know that a lot of GM insiders are on this website, but your vision of "success" for a vehicle, is different that the real world! I want to buy an HHR, but can't find one without all the "jukebox" subscription goodies on it! And the dealer can't order me one made to order? Who issued that decree? :huh:

Ol Bobbie Lutz has just one problem with the HHR..... that's DELIVERY!!!! I have been trying to buy one......... a 1LT model, but without Onstar, or XP radio or heated leather front seats......... and nobody down here has one! And colors......... GM introduced a new color with this car........ but try and find one! They have a winner here, if people can get them........ I have convinced two friends to buy one, but can't even get a promise out of any dealer that they could deliver an "ordered" HHR before the Red Tag expires! So much for new product availability :(

I have some news for you......... they were not priced right! I spec'd out an HHR and the MSRP came out at $20.300. The red tag adjustment dropped the price to $19,160. A comparably equipped '06 PT Cruiser came in @ $19,850! So the price adjustments ARE necessary to make the vehicles competitive! :rolleyes:

I have also sold products in my checkered past, and disagree with your sales philosophy. If you don't believe in your product, how can you look yourself in the face and shave each morning without slitting your own throat for being an unscrupulous bastard? My observational comments were not meant to demean the salesperson in some "cute" way, but to reflect that their bosses required them to do a job without adequate training about the product they were trying to sell. Yes, I knew more about the products than they did, but that's because I am a car buff, or I wouldn't even be here!------- but for the general public, it would be a case of the blind leading the blind, or two blind people at opposite ends of an elephant trying to describe it to each other! The other factor was that here is a new model with which the General is trying to recoup market share......... and the sales manager lamenting that he can't get product! It pertains to management foresite, and keeping the product hoppers filled when you are trying to sell a product! Yes lead times are long, and the General is trying to push his new SUV models. Then hold off on other things, like they are doing with the Soltice, until you CAN fill the pipeline. I hear all this talk about excess manufacturing capacity, and then out of the other side of their mouth comes..... have to add a 3rd shift to meet demand, but I'm stil closing the XXX plant! Does the right hand ever know what the left is doing? It seems not. <_<

Nuff Said ??????? IMO, I'm not sure that the Impala was the most popular model. I've seen reports that say the Chevelle held that title, and then for youse 60's folks, don't forget that Bel Air came first! B)

All interesting wishes guys, but nobody put economics into the equation --- and that is what the bean-counters would do! I too, have very fond memories of the ol' 215cu.in.(3,5L), all-aluminum BOP engine of the early sixties that GM foolishly sold to B-L for the Rover. But you have to recall the reason that they did that. Besides money, it was a "dirty" engine that even Rover was never able to clean up enough to meet pollution standards until they got rid of the carburetor. And then there was the porosity issue of the castings----- but technical advances have solved both of these problems. I would love to see GM produce another all-aluminum 3.5L engine, maybe based on an LS2, but with some cam sophistication, maybe DOHC and VVT and DOD! But I don't think corporate would allow it in any-front drive platform, and we all know what's available NOW in RWD................... in an appropriate sized vehicle---- 0!!!!!!

There is an old adage...... and empty can with one stone makes more noise than one that is full. If you haven't been in their shoes, don't speculate! I got relocated to Tennessee when I took employment from a Chicago-suburb-based company. We had many fears and concerns, but it was not what we had anticipated.... it was better! I lived South of Nashville in Rutherford county. It was great and had MANY, MANY opportunities for YOUNG people to learn and grow, at an affordable rate! I have also visited Southern California, and interviewed for jobs up by "Silicon Valley". You could not pay me enough money to move out there to live and work in that crazy zoo! How many manufacturing facilities do you find in California, besides the JOINT venture plant of Toyota and GM....... and we know how smart some of the recent decisions of GM have been...... like FIAT! Why do you think that the off-shore manufacturers came to the Mid-West and South-East when locating in the U.S.? Cheap labor was not the only reason. STABILITY of the local political climate is one of the major factors in site selection. Also, since Nissan already has 2 plants in TN., a phyically closer link can only be a positive in intercommunications, ignoring the current love for things electronic. If you have never visited the Mid-States, Nashville area, you are speaking like a blind man trying to describe an elephant! There are many cultural, educational and entertaining venues in middle TN, tan you can imagine. AND....... I don't live there anymore, so I am not a PR spokeperson for their Chamber-of-Commerce, as you appear to be for CA.!!!!!!!!

I got some bonus coupons in the mail this week, so I thought that I would take some time and investigate what the General had to offer as a suitable replacement for my '00 Astro LT AWD vehicle, since they have stopped making Astro's. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with mine now except 92,000 miles, but it is lacking in some state-of-the-art features that we would like to have. I spent time in depth at 3 dealerships. Looked at the HHR, Uplander, Equinox, Trailblazer, an Envoy XUV, and a PT Cruiser. My first, general overall impression ---- the General has forgotten that vehicles are primarily supposed to be people-movers and cargo-haulers, not rolling juke-box entertainment centers! My second impression --- W-I-T- H--l are these dealers calling sales people? They don't know product, and I mean not just cars in general, but the merchadise they are trying to convince you to buy! The first place, salesman had been on the job 2 weeks, and didn't even know the names of all the vehicles in his product line! Today met a salesman, who was a little more knowledgeable---- he had been on the job 2 months, but he had trouble with the English language! How can dealerships cry when they foist these untrained people on the public? Now onto the products. What a joke! The HHR seemed to be the one that suited most of our needs as a replacement due to its' design features, size, layout and functionality ------- but try to find one! First dealer had "only" 3 left---- all 2LT models loaded with everything but the kitchen sink! But I told him I wanted a 1LT in a certain standard color, with certain specific features, ----- and he did not know if he could get it for me, while the promo was on, since he had to take whatever "they" sent him! A standard model, with certain standard options------ and the dealer doesn't know if he can get it? C'mon, since when does the cart lead the horse? Then I looked at what was first pitched to me as the replacement for the Astro and the Venture, --- the Uplander. What a joke! Second seats cannot be folded up and left in the vehicle, out of the way for cargo? They weigh a ton --- and have to be removed manually & physically to make room! How anciently quaint! But it comes with more sound equipment than Radio City music hall as standard! How nice if you want to park in your driveway and listen. The Equinox is an SUV wanna-be, that has slightly more useable space than an ice-cube tray! And lastly the Trailblazer & Envoy. Nice RWD HEAVY vehicles that love $3.00/gal. gas! ------ and the price? I'd have to rob 14 banks just to make the down-payment! The last straw----- when I looked at the last XUV in my county. It had a MSRP over $39,000 the way it was loaded------ but they couldn't get the movable top and rear window to work until they took it off the showroom floor, and back to the service dept, to trigger some reset button to make everything functional again! The dash reminded me of the cockpit of a 747, it had almost the same number of switches, and the owners manual was thicker than some telephone books that I have seen!----- and that was how the sales dept. found out they had to send the vehicle to the service dept to get it "reset"!!!! Try doing that one in Lower Slobovia, Tim-Buck-Too, and see where you get! I think on that one you needed to present some kind of MIT degree in order to be qualified to operate it. Yeah, I think some of the folks at GM HQ have forgotten what their primary business is, making vehicles that people can use comfortably and reliably, and transport themselves, and cargo with ease. The soapbox is availabile for somebody else. :(

O.K. bean-counters & you inside techies..... Let's play a hypothetical game. GM needs a new engine for a new mid-size car. What do we power it with? Decision must be based on engine build cost. Let's assume both engines would have the same displacement, and have to be a 90 degree V-configuration. What should we choose? A high tech V-6, but that has the component costs of a counterbalance shaft, to eliminate vibration, and the bearings for it to run in, and gears or a chain/belt to drive it. Or, A V-8, but that has 2 more pistons, connecting rods, and 4 more valves. But it doesn't need a balance shaft. Which would take more assembly time (labor) which has to figure into this cost equation? O.K., let's have some opinions, based on facts.

I don't agree with the last part of your comment, but I do with the first! This look would have kept the PT-too-ers at bay! You have heard of mini-me? Well this concept strikes me as a mini-Nomad! I like the tailgate split idea, but should have gone one step further and made the bottom have the ol' Dutch doors! Cost might be a factor, but the rear-side slider door for the back seat area would sure work well here! B)

Well, went digging in the archives, just to prove a point for some of you not-so-old timers, and found the '60 Corvair factory service manual, with the whole chapter on the gas heater. Here's a pic of how the assembly looked in the front trunk. :rolleyes:

Hey razor, I'd suggest that you pre-read your posts, or use spell-check so that we can understand what you are RANTING about. I was reffering to your choice of language in previous posts, and the cavalier attitude that you had about someone making only"$35 to40K a year." Hello! there are still a lot of people out there, earning minimum wage, and that is a lot less than the figures that you are throwing around. Furthermore, there are people out there,...... who don't earn that amount, because they are no longer in the job market, due to age or physical infirmities that cause them to not be eligible to work..... and they still need decent transportation. You seem to start every response with a chip on your shoulder... drop it! Walk a mile in somebody elses shoes, metaphorically, if you can. :mellow:

Hey blackviper, how about one like this?This would get your adreneline moving! B) > > >

Mr./Ms Mail..... A very elegant solilique, but TRUTH still stands tall and just saying so does not turn black to white or vice-versa. Trying to turn reality to grey is a futile exercise that defies the TRUTH. Nature is the teacher of these truths. Animals do not feel guilt for their inate habits, only man does! We Americans seem to want quick, simplistic answers lately. I suggest that all you participants go back and re-read the teachings of some of our founding fathers. They were forged in a time of enduring hardships, and their TRUTHS still apply to the nature of man today! Our system of life and governance is unique in the history of the world. It has been the most successful system of civilized community life in the history of the world. Too many people today want to say, in this time of exploding technology it no longer applies. THAT could not be further from the truth, than to say that black is white---- just because I say so! Respect for each other and decency values are the marks on our report card, and currently, our gradepoint in these lessons leaves a lot to be desired. I think that the lessons of hurricane Katrina in New Orleans could not make this clearer! Go back and re-read the Declaration of Independence, and why this country was created. Try to find that in any third-world country! Washington, George that is, said some powerful things about dealing with people and other governments.......... we need to heed that advice now!

Carbiz, I think you have been drinking too much fermented applejuice! Please explain, on an engineering level, or in otherwise logical terms, what in the hell difference is there, of applying engine power to a pair of driving wheels that can change the mileage efficiency? Other factors can apply, but just the location of the powerplant relative to the driving wheels is not one of those factors!

All of you sooth-sayers need to go back and read Ayn Rands' book, "Atlas Shrugged", if you can still find a copy! What she proposed as fiction is now coming into reality! The average person apparently does not understand the concept of independence thru manufacturability. If you have to beg, borrow, trade or ask for any item you NEED, not just desire, then you are not free or independent. You cannot then interreact with other people on an equal basis. When we shipped our manufacture abilty off-shore, we lost our independence. :bowdown:

Hey pottymouth! What about those of us that are no longer employed, and have to live on a fixed income, a lot less than your "poor 30 or35" thru the door. We paid our dues many years ago and a lot of promises were made that are now not being kept! I don't have any kids in school anymore, why should I have to subsidize your school costs, by paying a higher price for something that you may contribute some of your labor to make? At todays' market prices, I can't afford to buy your products anymore! Who am I supposed to cry to? AND I paid my dues for 38 years!!!!!!!

The Titanic thought it was fail-safe too!

I have listened to all the "finger-pointers" on this thread til I'm blue in the face, but you have all missed the elephant in the refrigerator! I'm talking about our Federal government, and the laws that have been passed that reward companies that go offshore, and penalize companies that stay here. Futhermore, these foreign manufacturers that choose to come here to make their products only do it because we give them the welcome mat and concessions that will lay on the backs of our grand-kids. And nobody has even mentioned the elephants cousin, NAFTA and now CAFTA, which were blessed and endorsed by the politicians that you didn't elect, because you can't be bothered by "voting"! Global economy is B/S! It onlt exists because of greed and ignoring the fact that FAIR trade and free trade are not the same! We are still considered those dumb Americans, around the world. AND, our planet savers choose to ignore the reality of TODAY, and constantly wish for, "tomorrow" This whole dilemma requires envolvment, not sideline quarterbacks, who just fingerpoint and say, "go in there George and win the game." Except that George isn't an American anymore! He's Latin, or Japanese, or Korean, or some other ethnicity who couldn't care less about Americans, except for the size of their wallet----- and Washington keeps digging into it, to appease them so that "they will like us!" That is truly a dream that is turning into a nightmare!!!!

Well Dave, I finally got the answer to my question....... but not from any of the "experts" on this forum! I just got the Dec.2005 issue of GMHIGHTECHPERFORMANCE magazine. They had a feature article on the LT1 vs the LS1 engines. In this article, on p.62 they quote GM engine-builder Ray Bohacz, when asked why the switch. He said," There seem to have been several reasons behind it. Apparently there were some problems with air pockets developing in the systems themselves. I'm also not sure that reverse-cooling reaped the benefits that GM thought it would. It allowed them to run a high compression ratio in the LT1(10.4:1), but high compression means a high output of oxides of nitrogen, and that raises emissions questions. As for the LS1, its' heads are so much better that they make more power without the emissions penalty." Now that's his quote, but I don't agree with some of the statements that he made as fact, i.e., high compression raises NO2 output. Other studies have concluded otherwise, but somebody got convinced at GM! <_<

I think the pot is calling the kettle black, especially when it comes down to language that is appropriate! :o